Airport staff 'exposed woman's breasts, laughed'

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Well lets see someone wants legal arguments. Here is my take on it, with just doing a quick overview of the research nor shepardizing my sources.
Interstate travel is a right under the constitution, (Shapiro v. Thomas, Corfield v. Coryell, 6 Fed. Cas. 546 (1823), Paul v. Virginia, 75 U.S. 168 (1869)).

As such any restriction on such would need to pass at least intermediate scrutiny if not strict scrutiny. footnote 4 to United States v. Carolene Products (1938).

Under strict scrutiny, the regulations must serve a compelling governmental interest and the least restrictive means to achieve that goal. (Can you really argue that procedures put in place 1 year after the underwear bomber, that wouldn’t have caught him anyways are the least restrictive means).

Intermediate scrutiny calls for an important governmental interest and the rule/law be narrowly tailored to achieve that interest.

Surely we can agree that stopping terrorist is a compelling governmental interest, but can we really say that having random people at the airport get a full body scan and/or frisked is really narrowly tailored or the least restrictive means to accomplish this goal? Indeed as it is not checking everyone and is over inclusive in that everybody will be searched and under inclusive in that these security measures might not actually catch bombers like the underwear bomber.

Now lets look at the means used. A search with no warrant and where probable cause is an issue. Mapp v. Ohio denied the use of evidence in a trial for having obscene material, but they entered the house on suspicion that the occupants we harboring a bomb fugitive. The police did not have a warrant and no consent was given, but the entered the house anyways. (Hmm suspected bomber and you still need a warrant).

In Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347 (1967), the Supreme Court ruled that a search occurs only when 1) a person expects privacy in the thing searched and 2) society believes that expectation is reasonable. (I think we all have a reasonable expectation that our genitals, and our bodies in general are private).

In Terry v. Ohio 392 U.S. 1 (1968), a police officer may conduct a warrantless search with less then probably cause when the officer has a reasonable suspicion that “criminal activity is afoot.” The officer may conduct a frisk, but must point to specific and articulable facts which taken together form a reasonable basis for the search. A vague hunch is not enough. (So the police cannot conduct a frisk without some sort of reason, but the TSA can randomly select people to be frisked? If you set of the metal detector or are seen hiding something in your pants, maybe then you could be frisked by TSA, but before then? Not under this standard.)

In City of Indianapolis v. Edmond, 531 U.S. 32 (2000), ruled that police checkpoints set up for the purpose of “general crime control” were unreasonable under the Fourth Amendment. Though checkpoints for border security and catching drunk drivers is generally allowed, Michigan v. Sitz. In Sitz, the officers could only ask questions, not search the vehicles. (So are the checkpoints for a specific purpose? maybe, but just because there is a checkpoint doesn’t give the authority license to search a persons body without a warrant or probably cause/reasonable suspicion).

United States v. Montoya de Hernandez, 473 U.S. 531, 538 (1985) travelers may be stopped and searched at the border without individualized suspicion even if the stop or search is based largely on ethnicity" (citing United States v. Martinez-Fuerte, 428 U.S. 543, 562-563(1976)) (At the border we can “discriminate” based on ethnicity and search people).

Customs may only conduct searches of the traveler’s body, including strip, body cavity, involuntary x-ray, and in some jurisdictions, pat-down searches, if the Customs officer has reasonable suspicion to believe the traveler is concealing contraband. See United States v. Flores-Montano, 541 U.S. 149, 152-53 (2004); United States v. Johnson, 991 F.2d 1287, 1291-92 (7th Cir. 1993). (So customs can only do body searches with reasonable suspicion, I highly doubt a random search rises to the level of reasonable suspicion).

(So here we have an issue, are the checkpoints themselves constitutional, maybe because they are there for a specific purpose, if terrorism can be defined as a specific purpose, though again in interstate travel maybe not. But the searches may not be constitutional. Even at border crossings search of travelers body is limited to reasonable suspicion, so that would mean that body searches of interstate travelers could not be supported by the 4th amendment if border crossings can’t be).

As you can see from my post, this is why others have not cited authority and made the “legal argument” that you seem to desire. It is not conductive to good forum discussion.
 
No, it does not. The amendment is the still the basis of the courts’ decisions. We can all have opinions about the 4th amendment does or does not do, but the only opinions that matter are judicial opinions.
Amendments never stand on their own. Even the most radical originalist would not argue against looking at the historical context of a constitutional texts’ drafting.
I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying.

If we need some kind of court opinion to show us that the 4th amendment applies, then it stands to reason that court opinion likewise had to have an opinion, and the one before that, and the one before that, etc…

The amendment must come first, court opinions on it come later.

The supreme court does not sit on cases where an amendment may be applied and decide if it is constitutional. It looks at cases where an interpretation has been made and applied and decides if it is constitutional.

Rather then asking for some court opinion on the matter to lend authority to the 4th amendment outcry, we should be pushing the DA for prosecution based upon that and see where the court goes with it.
 
As you can see from my post, this is why others have not cited authority and made the “legal argument” that you seem to desire. It is not conductive to good forum discussion.
Words…words…words…:hypno:

I hope we can move on from the legal matters now.
 
Well lets see someone wants legal arguments. Here is my take on it, with just doing a quick overview of the research nor shepardizing my sources.
Interstate travel is a right under the constitution, (Shapiro v. Thomas, Corfield v. Coryell, 6 Fed. Cas. 546 (1823), Paul v. Virginia, 75 U.S. 168 (1869)).

As such any restriction on such would need to pass at least intermediate scrutiny if not strict scrutiny. footnote 4 to United States v. Carolene Products (1938).

Under strict scrutiny, the regulations must serve a compelling governmental interest and the least restrictive means to achieve that goal. (Can you really argue that procedures put in place 1 year after the underwear bomber, that wouldn’t have caught him anyways are the least restrictive means).

Intermediate scrutiny calls for an important governmental interest and the rule/law be narrowly tailored to achieve that interest.

Surely we can agree that stopping terrorist is a compelling governmental interest, but can we really say that having random people at the airport get a full body scan and/or frisked is really narrowly tailored or the least restrictive means to accomplish this goal? Indeed as it is not checking everyone and is over inclusive in that everybody will be searched and under inclusive in that these security measures might not actually catch bombers like the underwear bomber.

Now lets look at the means used. A search with no warrant and where probable cause is an issue. Mapp v. Ohio denied the use of evidence in a trial for having obscene material, but they entered the house on suspicion that the occupants we harboring a bomb fugitive. The police did not have a warrant and no consent was given, but the entered the house anyways. (Hmm suspected bomber and you still need a warrant).

In Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347 (1967), the Supreme Court ruled that a search occurs only when 1) a person expects privacy in the thing searched and 2) society believes that expectation is reasonable. (I think we all have a reasonable expectation that our genitals, and our bodies in general are private).

In Terry v. Ohio 392 U.S. 1 (1968), a police officer may conduct a warrantless search with less then probably cause when the officer has a reasonable suspicion that “criminal activity is afoot.” The officer may conduct a frisk, but must point to specific and articulable facts which taken together form a reasonable basis for the search. A vague hunch is not enough. (So the police cannot conduct a frisk without some sort of reason, but the TSA can randomly select people to be frisked? If you set of the metal detector or are seen hiding something in your pants, maybe then you could be frisked by TSA, but before then? Not under this standard.)

In City of Indianapolis v. Edmond, 531 U.S. 32 (2000), ruled that police checkpoints set up for the purpose of “general crime control” were unreasonable under the Fourth Amendment. Though checkpoints for border security and catching drunk drivers is generally allowed, Michigan v. Sitz. In Sitz, the officers could only ask questions, not search the vehicles. (So are the checkpoints for a specific purpose? maybe, but just because there is a checkpoint doesn’t give the authority license to search a persons body without a warrant or probably cause/reasonable suspicion).

United States v. Montoya de Hernandez, 473 U.S. 531, 538 (1985) travelers may be stopped and searched at the border without individualized suspicion even if the stop or search is based largely on ethnicity" (citing United States v. Martinez-Fuerte, 428 U.S. 543, 562-563(1976)) (At the border we can “discriminate” based on ethnicity and search people).
Your cites are extremely broad. Appellate-level courts have looked specifically at the issue of random airport screening and found them constitutional (see the cases I cited to earlier). For random airport searches (as opposed to customs searches), there does not need to be a warrant, probable cause, or reasonable suspicion . Random airport screenings have been repeatedly upheld (again see the cases I cited).

As to whether the scanner would have caught the underwear bomber, there is still debate on that. The Government Accountability Office’s review of that question was inconclusive. But there is no question that the new body scanners can detect more materials than the old scanners. Short of strip searches, the new scanners provide our best chance of preventing bombings or other attacks.

What less restrictive methods could be used to detect materials that the old scanners could not detect? Looking specifically at the underwear bomber is a red herring. We know there are terrorists who want to blow up planes. We know there are materials that can get through our old scanners. We know there are materials that the new scanners can detect that the old scanners could not. (There are also materials the new scanners cannot detect). What less restrictive way is to the detect the materials that new scanners can detect that the old scanners cannot detect?

gao.gov/htext/d10484t.html
howstuffworks.com/innovation/backscatter.htm
As you can see from my post, this is why others have not cited authority and made the “legal argument” that you seem to desire. It is not conductive to good forum discussion.
 
I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying.

If we need some kind of court opinion to show us that the 4th amendment applies, then it stands to reason that court opinion likewise had to have an opinion, and the one before that, and the one before that, etc…

The amendment must come first, court opinions on it come later.

The supreme court does not sit on cases where an amendment may be applied and decide if it is constitutional. It looks at cases where an interpretation has been made and applied and decides if it is constitutional.

Rather then asking for some court opinion on the matter to lend authority to the 4th amendment outcry, we should be pushing the DA for prosecution based upon that and see where the court goes with it.
Your post makes no sense. A district attorney does prosecute 4th amendment violations. Violation of the 4th amendment is not a crime.

By the way, the court opinions I cited show the 4th amendment applies. In any case a party can argue the 4th amendment applies. The court will then look to the amendment and case law to see if and how it apples.
 
Your post makes no sense. A district attorney does prosecute 4th amendment violations.
I did not say he did.
I simply stated the case should be based upon it.

Once the case is made, it is up to the judge, and the various courts up the chain to decide if it is a worthy argument or not.

In the intervening time, they could seek an injunction against these search procedures until the case is decided.
 
I did not say he did.
I simply stated the case should be based upon it.

Once the case is made, it is up to the judge, and the various courts up the chain to decide if it is a worthy argument or not.

In the intervening time, they could seek an injunction against these search procedures until the case is decided.
A district attorney cannot bring a case under the 4th amendment, Well, he could, but the court would immediately throw the case out. The district attorney would probably end up getting sanctioned.

The 4th amendment is not a criminal statute. There is no case that a district attorney could base on it. If you are this ignorant of the law, it is no wonder you are confused about the law on airport screenings.
 
Watch the video of the 3 year old being searched and screaming ‘stop touching me’ as a stranger runs her hands all over her body, touching her intimately. This child has been sexually molested. If anyone else did that, they’d be in jail.
No kidding.

Talk about a double-standard!! 😦
 
Your cites are extremely broad. Appellate-level courts have looked specifically at the issue of random airport screening and found them constitutional (see the cases I cited to earlier). For random airport searches (as opposed to customs searches), there does not need to be a warrant, probable cause, or reasonable suspicion . Random airport screenings have been repeatedly upheld (again see the cases I cited).

I think you are confused about legal precedent. Appellate level courts come under the supreme court which is what I cited, you cited 9th circut only. Not only that but their decisions are limited to their jurisdiction. Not only that you must have missed the cite that said the check points were fine, as were some searches, like the metal detectors and wands, but bodily searches with out cause are not. (If you set off the alarm then that would probably constitute reasonable suspicion for a bodily search).
As to whether the scanner would have caught the underwear bomber, there is still debate on that. The Government Accountability Office’s review of that question was inconclusive. But there is no question that the new body scanners can detect more materials than the old scanners. Short of strip searches, the new scanners provide our best chance of preventing bombings or other attacks.

Indeed this would be a factual issue to be argued.

What less restrictive methods could be used to detect materials that the old scanners could not detect? Looking specifically at the underwear bomber is a red herring. We know there are terrorists who want to blow up planes. We know there are materials that can get through our old scanners. We know there are materials that the new scanners can detect that the old scanners could not. (There are also materials the new scanners cannot detect). What less restrictive way is to the detect the materials that new scanners can detect that the old scanners cannot detect?

gao.gov/htext/d10484t.html
howstuffworks.com/innovation/backscatter.htm

I am not an expert I was merely informing you of the legal principals a court would have to consider when deciding this case. Perhaps asking people about their destinations, why they are flying, etc would be less restrictive.

If we are going to discuss a legal question, we have to look at the legal authority. It is the only way there is a basis for the discussion.
No, we can talk about general legal principals without citing authority. As you see you rejected my cases because they were too board/general even though some of those are seminal cases on searches and seizures and the 4th amendment. I reject your authority because it has not been addressed by the supreme court (though 4th amendment issues and searches in particular have) and are only in force in the 9th circuit.
 
There are so many disturbing comments in this thread I don’t know how to begin to address them.

This is the 4th Amendment

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Whatever agency of government, for whatever reason, violates what these plainly written words espouse is indeed violating your rights. The fact that the TSA continues to do this does not mean that it is OK. The government will force it’s will apon the people so long and so far as the endurance of the people will allow. The tyranny will endure until the people either through words, or physical action revolt.

Freedom to travel within states is an absolute right.

You are never required to submit to the conclusion that you are guilty until proven innocent under the constitution.

For those who say that they would rather go through the pat downs then fly with the underwear bomber, I have a senario for you. What happens when someone gets on the plane with explosives in their anal cavity? (This has already been done by a terrorist who was able to get an audience with a Saudi prince). Neither the back-scatter x-rays nor the enhansed pat downs will detect this.

Using the rational of Homeland Security so far, the TSA will be required to start performing body cavity searches. Are all of you safety before liberty types ready to “bend over and spread 'um” before you hop on the plane to Grandma’s? I’m sure your saying, “oh no, they would never do that” Why wouldn’t they? It’s for our own safety. If this is the new method of terror, they will be forced to deal with it. And because we have already abandoned the principle of “secure in our persons” we will be forced to submit to whatever is deemed necessary in the name of “safety”.

Touching my breasts and or my vagina is assult. If my date did this after dinner, I could have him arrested.

None of this makes us safer. Does anyone believe that randomly choosing white haired old ladies in wheelchairs from Nebraska while letting through 20 young males from Yemen is really doing anything to make flying safer? All it does is make the sick politically correct amoung us smile and say,“look how enlightened we are, we would rather sexually violate innocent men, women and children and spend hundreds of millions of dollars exposing people to potentially cancer causing radiation, then ask a few simple questions of behaviorly profilled individuals.”

We are like sheep to the slaughter.
 
A district attorney cannot bring a case under the 4th amendment, Well, he could, but the court would immediately throw the case out. The district attorney would probably end up getting sanctioned.

The 4th amendment is not a criminal statute. There is no case that a district attorney could base on it. If you are this ignorant of the law, it is no wonder you are confused about the law on airport screenings.
So on the one hand, you want to discuss constitutional legalistics.
And on the other hand, you do not.
And on yet a third hand whatever legal cases to be found are simply to ‘broad’ and vague.
And a forth, you dismiss it all as a case that could be thrown out.

Sorry.

Call it ignorance of the law if you wish.
Although I think it more ignorance of your position.

It appears to this layman that your position is shifting.

I am having a hard time keeping up.
 
So on the one hand, you want to discuss constitutional legalistics.
And on the other hand, you do not.
And on yet a third hand whatever legal cases to be found are simply to ‘broad’ and vague.
And a forth, you dismiss it all as a case that could be thrown out.

Sorry.

Call it ignorance of the law if you wish.
Although I think it more ignorance of your position.

It appears to this layman that your position is shifting.

I am having a hard time keeping up.
Do you understand what a district attorney does? A district attorney does not bring prosecutions based on the constitutional violations.
 
No, we can talk about general legal principals without citing authority. As you see you rejected my cases because they were too board/general even though some of those are seminal cases on searches and seizures and the 4th amendment. I reject your authority because it has not been addressed by the supreme court (though 4th amendment issues and searches in particular have) and are only in force in the 9th circuit.
I cited the 9th circuit cases because there are considered leading cases in this area.

Airport screenings have also been looked by other circuits:

see for example, United States v. Hartwell, 436 F.3d 174 (3rd Cir. 2006); Do you cites from more circuits?

If you want Supreme Court opinion, see the dicta in these cases:
Chandler v. Miller, 520 U.S. 305, 323, (1997); and
City of Indianapolis v. Edmond, 531 U.S. 32, 47-48, 121 S.Ct. 447, 148 L.Ed.2d 333 (2000)

While dicta is not binding, it is pretty that the circuits’ decisions are in accordance with the Supreme Court.
 
I cited the 9th circuit cases because there are considered leading cases in this area.

Airport screenings have also been looked by other circuits:

see for example, United States v. Hartwell, 436 F.3d 174 (3rd Cir. 2006); Do you cites from more circuits?

If you want Supreme Court opinion, see the dicta in these cases:
Chandler v. Miller, 520 U.S. 305, 323, (1997); and
City of Indianapolis v. Edmond, 531 U.S. 32, 47-48, 121 S.Ct. 447, 148 L.Ed.2d 333 (2000)

While dicta is not binding, it is pretty that the circuits’ decisions are in accordance with the Supreme Court.
Your cites are too broad.:rolleyes:

What exactly am I supposed to be looking at in these cases, I do not have the time to look them all up and read them.can you not summarize the legal point we are supposed to be drawing from them?

And did you not read my post? I specifically cited Indianapolis v. Edmond because it said that checkpoints for general law enforcement were not constitutional. I said that courts would have to decide whether “terrorism” was a specific purpose and not general law enforcement. Also there are exceptions for enforcing driving under the influence and for border checks. But check points is merely the way we stop people, it does not in and of itself constitute justification to search a persons body. 🤷

and yes in the law there is a difference between how much you search. When you arrest someone a general pat down, like they used to be at the airport is acceptable, but you can’t strip search or cavity search someone when you arrest them, (there are very limited exceptions like when the officer saw the person trying to destroy evidence by swallowing it or etc.).
 
Your cites are too broad.:rolleyes:

What exactly am I supposed to be looking at in these cases, I do not have the time to look them all up and read them.can you not summarize the legal point we are supposed to be drawing from them?

And did you not read my post? I specifically cited Indianapolis v. Edmond because it said that checkpoints for general law enforcement were not constitutional. I said that courts would have to decide whether “terrorism” was a specific purpose and not general law enforcement. Also there are exceptions for enforcing driving under the influence and for border checks. But check points is merely the way we stop people, it does not in and of itself constitute justification to search a persons body. 🤷
I did cite the page numbers.

Chandler: “We reiterate, too, that where the risk to public safety is substantial and real, blanket suspicionless searches calibrated to the risk may rank as “reasonable”–for example, searches now routine at airports and at entrances to courts and other official buildings.”

City of Indianapolis: “Our holding also does not affect the validity of border searches or searches at places like airports and government buildings, where the need for such measures to ensure public safety can be particularly acute.”

emphasis added.
and yes in the law there is a difference between how much you search. When you arrest someone a general pat down, like they used to be at the airport is acceptable, but you can’t strip search or cavity search someone when you arrest them, (there are very limited exceptions like when the officer saw the person trying to destroy evidence by swallowing it or etc.).
I don’t think anyone is denying that.
 
If an exposed breast or two or three is what it takes to keep us safe, it’s worth the sacrifice of our liberties, I say! :rolleyes: Sounds stupid, I realize. Well, that’s but a small extrapolation of quotes that I’ve actually heard from a few of our once-proud citizens as they prepare to mount aircraft.
Obama and Napolitano are ruthless bullies who have no regard for the Constitution and individual rights. They become more disgraceful daily, as they pretend that EVERYONE is an equal threat, and we can’t POSSIBLY know who the purveyors of peace who threaten airlines are! Rob 🤷
 
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