Alan Keyes daughter is gay

[Fiat]

katherine2:

I have grave reservations about having corporate chieftains impose economic punishments on people as a way of encouraging personal moral behavior. I’m consistent on this. Despite my strong beliefs in the obligation of charity to the poor, I would not support the rught of an employer to fire someone because they were greedy or miserly.

I am very familiar with federal civil rights law. I was “present at the creation” if you will.

So the imposition of “economic punishments on people as a way of encouraging personal moral behavior” may be imposed on employers but just not on employees. Is that what you’re saying? It is acceptable to you, for instance, to impose a moral standard, i.e., acceptance/promotion/facilitation of gay lifestyle on an employer, but it is unacceptable to impose a disdain for sin on the person committing the sin? Am I understanding you correctly?

Fiat

 

[Lisa_N]

I’m curious where all of this supposed discrimination against homosexuals in employment and housing exists. Further it’s curious that there is a gaydar machine that prevents homoesexuals from getting in the door or completing a rental/housing/loan application. I guess I never saw any such application ask about someone’s sex life…have you?

I agree, like racial discrimination, there was some employment discrimination in some professions. I was in a large and very conservative professional firm that did terminate two homosexuals and although the supposed cause was well documented, most of us realized what was going on AT THE TIME. This was in the mid l980s. The firm now has homosexual employees, executives and partners. Such discrimination is in my experience, a part of our past.

I don’t hear about such terminations these days. Maybe someone who is advancing the theory that homosexuals face daily discrimination would like to provide some good evidence this is actually taking place today. I think this is simply a way of trying to ally themselves with legitimate anti-discrimination causes. Then once they justify their existence as a legitimate movement they can move toward total ‘normalization’ including marriage, teaching homosexuality in schools, etc.

Lisa N

 

[siamesecat]

StJeanneDArc:

. Even at your age you should understand that.

Actually I dont. Kids dont turn out exactly how their parents want them to, thats obvious. But kids raised by parents who know what they’re doing rarely turn out badly. All the kids my age that are clearly going nowhere have parents who either have no clue or dont care. ive yet to find one exception. I will admit that some of these kids have very nice parents who just are too easy on them or really have no clue. Take one family. Their son died joyriding with a drunk driver, and while theyre very nice and i feel very sorry for them, they let their daughter drive in a car full of teenagers none of whom have their licence. Its like they have no idea. As for financing her immoral lifestyle, financing her education is not like support the gay and lesbian league.

 

[Lisa_N]

siamesecat:

Actually I dont. Kids dont turn out exactly how their parents want them to, thats obvious. But kids raised by parents who know what they’re doing rarely turn out badly. All the kids my age that are clearly going nowhere have parents who either have no clue or dont care. ive yet to find one exception. I will admit that some of these kids have very nice parents who just are too easy on them or really have no clue. Take one family. Their son died joyriding with a drunk driver, and while theyre very nice and i feel very sorry for them, they let their daughter drive in a car full of teenagers none of whom have their licence. Its like they have no idea. As for financing her immoral lifestyle, financing her education is not like support the gay and lesbian league.

Siamesecat while having responsible parents does enhance your chances to succeed in becoming a healthy productive adult, the reality is that even the best parents have mixed results. Haven’t you seen a family where there was one kid that went over the line? The term ‘black sheep of the family’ is not without reason. I work with a woman who had two kids, about 18 months apart. They sacrificed to send the kids to private religious school, were extremely responsible, and seemed to be very effective parents. But the boy turned out to be a solid citizen and the girl just went bonkers once she turned 18. She had a series of abusive boyfriends, one of who killed her. She had substance abuse problems. She couldn’t keep a job. It was very sad to watch this beautiful girl end up in a coma and later die because of her poor choices. Believe me this isn’t the only case of a family that had some great kids and some wild hellions.

To tie it to this thread, I don’t know how many kids Mr Keyes has but the one errant child does not mean he was a poor or ineffective parent. Sometimes kids have to make their own mistakes and hopefully unlike my co-worker’s child, Ms Keyes will wake up.

Lisa N

 

[Riley259]

4 marks:

My wife and I attended and participated in my brother’s wedding, We recognize his partner as our “brother-in-law,” and as a member of our family. I refuse to discriminate against anyone based upon sexual preference, or race, or gender, or creed, or political persuasion, or disability. I am called to love others completely and freely…unreservedly in Christ. I am not called to merely tolerate their lifestyles and behaviors. “Hate the sin and love the sinner” is simply not acceptable to me as a Catholic Christian living in the 21st Century.

You can love your brother unconditionally without approving of his choice to engage in sexual relations with his “spouse”. In fact, you’re loving him more completely by being true to authentic Christian teaching about sexuality - otherwise, you’re giving him the false impression that it’s moral to engage in sexual relations with someone not only from the same gender but outside the confines of a sacramental marriage. If you actually believe it’s OK for same-sex individuals to marry then you’ve already gone off the rails and are in effect a dissident catholic. I’m not clear from your post which position you actually take. Just because an issue like this hits close to home doesn’t change the truth about homosexual relations.

 

[katherine2]

Fiat:

So the imposition of “economic punishments on people as a way of encouraging personal moral behavior” may be imposed on employers but just not on employees. Is that what you’re saying? It is acceptable to you, for instance, to impose a moral standard, i.e., acceptance/promotion/facilitation of gay lifestyle on an employer, but it is unacceptable to impose a disdain for sin on the person committing the sin? Am I understanding you correctly?
Fiat

I don’t think you are. I don’t accept the premise that by hiring a person, an employer is accepting or promoting aspects of that persons life such as the fact that he is gay.

I do not want to live in a society where people’s paycheck is held over them to follow what the boss determines is moral behavior. If a particular boss thinks he is endorsing such actions of someone else simply because he has not fired him, I think he needs to get over it. These are employees, not serfs.

if my boss is a teetotaler should he be allowed to fire me because I have a beer on Sunday?

 

[kmktexas]

OK, do you guys realize that discrimination is not illegal in most states on the basis of “sexual affinity”? At least not in terms of employment. It is perfectly legal in all but a few states and large cities. Not that most employers would do that and many companies have thier own policies. But you shouldn’t accuse companies of illegal behavior, when it isn’t. Now, I don’t think that anyone should be treated unfairly, but that is a long cry from wanted sexual orientation elevated to that of a protected class.

As for Mr. Keyes daughter, she publically acted in a way that her father disapproved. She’s an adult and responsible for her own actions. I am sure she knew there would be consequences. My own parents stopped paying for college when I got engaged my Junior year. They didn’t approve so no more $$. I was fortunate to have them pay for 3 years and by my own actions, was on my own for the final year. It took me 4 years to complete my Senior year but that was the consequenc of my own actions.

And 4Marks, didn’t you just say on another thread that the celibate priesthood was pretty much the only thing standing in the way of you becoming a priest? I think there are a few more things standing in your way (like understanding and accepting Church moral teachings) than that one issue.

 

[Catholicvegan]

Well, after Dr. Keyes remarks about Cheney’s daughter (a “selfish hedonist”), why should we expect anything different towards his own daughter?

 

[Riley259]

Catholicvegan:

Well, after Dr. Keyes remarks about Cheney’s daughter (a “selfish hedonist”), why should we expect anything different towards his own daughter?

You need to read the context of the interview to completely appreciate the use of the term “selfish hedonist”. I felt that Dr. Keyes was trapped into describing Mary Cheney as a selfish hedonist. In essence, he was just describing what sexuality boils down to when it’s not done in the context of a sacramental marriage and when there’s no intention or possibility of life - it’s done strictly for the pleasure of each of the partners and ultimately the partners are using each other for their own selfish pleasure. It was the interviewer who pulled out the politically charged example of Mary Cheney and turned it back on him in an obvious attempt to discredit him. Although stated more harshly, this concept of selfish use of a person’s body for one’s pleasure is right in line with JP II’s theology of the body. See the link at the beginning of this thread for the article mentioned above.

 

[Catholicvegan]

Dear Riley259,

You are correct- only trouble is, he “trapped” himself.

 

[gilliam]

Catholicvegan:

Dear Riley259,

You are correct- only trouble is, he “trapped” himself.

I don’t understand. Are you saying that because he has a daughter who practices homosexual behavior, he should silence himself on Catholic theology?

Should all parents of sinners silence themselves on Catholic theology as well?

I don’t understand.

 

[Blake002]

Riley, This just reminds me of two things, One, you should ALWAYS love your children no matter what. And two, you should NEVER say something like “if my child was … I’d say they are”, as it may come back to haunt you.

In an interview he was asked about the situation abut Newt Gingrich (sp), or Cheneys, and his gay daughter. He made some very harsh remarks saying “If my daughter was gay I would tell her she is (I forgot the exact words but they were harsh)”

We are ALL God’s children and we should love each other no matter what! And you should ALWAYS love your children no matter what!

 

[Blake002]

Lisa N:

Why this private family matter is taken up as a cause celebre is beyond me. Many children rebel and who knows whether this is as much a rebellious child trying to hurt her father in the way it will be most painful or whether she is truly a lesbian who wants to promote the homesexual agenda.

Lisa N

I agree with you on most of this, but first I don’t think it has anything to do with a homosexual agenda. No one knows what goes on behind the doors of their household. Maybe he is all talk in from of the cameras and he is respectful of her in private, or maybe he is a very cold father to her. We will never know about their “private family matter”.

Now, Mr. Keyes made his “private family matter” a public issue because he commented on another politician and his “family matter”, so therefor he opened up his own family matters.

But I agree, It’s their private matter.

 

[SHEMP]

I don’t think any of us can really know what were the full issues involved. Keyes’ daughter has become more political. She may have insisted on bringing a “partner” over to the house. She may have demanded it. She may have decided to live with a partner at college. Who knows. As a parent you have to take a stand. Did Keyes “cut” his daughter off" because of her same sex attraction OR did he “cut her off” because of her persistent immoral actions under his house and with his money? We do not know!

If my children insist on using my house or my money for persistent immoral actions then I would be obligated to take a stand. Would you continue to enable you childs drug abuse? Would you continue to enable your childs alcohol abuse? At what point do you tell your child that you will not support them financially if they insist on using your money and your home for immoral action.

Who knows what happened in their family.

 

[All4lifetoo]

I am surprised that so many here think that “love” means that daddy ought to give daughter money to do what she wants even though daughter is living a life of sin and is headed to Hell. I don’t understand why so many equate “love” as monetary or material provision instead of moral or spiritual provision.

True love looks to the good of the beloved, and the ultimate good is that of salvation. The withholding of monetary or material goods to tell the beloved that her behavior is unacceptable and that her behavior will cause her ultimate destruction is an effort to bring the beloved to salvation. It tells the beloved that her behavior is unacceptable and needs to be changed and that the behavior will not be supported by the lover. A little material privation or hardship is certainly worth the effort to bring the beloved into the good grace of God.

Of course the beloved may not respond to the correction, but the responsibility of that decision rests on the beloved not the lover. Better that the lover remains faithful to God and attempt to correct the beloved, than for the lover to become guilty of the sin by participation in the sin through cooperation thus causing the loss of both souls.

There is no greater disaster than to lose one’s soul, and I suspect that Mr. Keys knows this quite well; much better than his daughter.

 

[dennisknapp]

Blake002:

Riley, This just reminds me of two things, One, you should ALWAYS love your children no matter what. And two, you should NEVER say something like “if my child was … I’d say they are”, as it may come back to haunt you.

In an interview he was asked about the situation abut Newt Gingrich (sp), or Cheneys, and his gay daughter. He made some very harsh remarks saying “If my daughter was gay I would tell her she is (I forgot the exact words but they were harsh)”

We are ALL God’s children and we should love each other no matter what! And you should ALWAYS love your children no matter what!

Can you define “no matter what!?” What does this mean to you? What, in your opinion, should Keyes do with the situation?

Peace

 

[CreosMary]

Riley259:

This subject may have been hashed out in another thread but I haven’t been able to find anything on it. I’d like to know what people think of Alan Keyes situation with his daugher coming out as a lesbian. The media (with it’s usual liberal bias) has been painting a negative picture of Dr. Keyes. He’s being described as kind of a cold hearted father who disowned and kicked his daughter out in the cold. He is apparently not financing the rest of her education at Brown University and a gay group has agreed to finance it. This gay group is being painted as being on a wonderful rescue mission. Call me cynical but I’m sure this group expects Ms. Keyes to promote the gay agenda as a quid pro quo payback for their “generous” assistance with her education bills. Dr. Keyes reasons for not financing her education are logical to me: She will ultimately use that expensive education to promote the gay agenda and further embarrass him and his faith. I think that Alan Keyes is a very smart, articulate and courageous man for takin this stand - this guy truly has heart-felt principals. He was ridiculed for his comment about gays being selfish hedonists but that phrase was taken out of context and twisted to make him sound like a crazy right-wing fundamentalist zeolot. I’m praying for Dr. Keyes and his family. Please click on below link for the full text of the interview mentioned above. Dr. Keyes does a wonderful job explaining the true purpose of sexuality - I wish everyone could read his full explanation of this subject.

renewamerica.us/archives/media/interviews/04_08_31siriusq.htm

Hi, Being from Australia I do not know who Alan Keyes is, he seems to be a pollie.
Well they tried this with Cardinal Archbishop George Pell (Sydney Australia) as a cousin of his, an ex-Nun went on the left licking media proclaiming her relationship with another ex-Nun. ‘George’ as he is affectionally known (to his supporters and they are SO many) in Australia, gave a brief reply, along the lines of…’ well what can you do but pray for the family" in his traditional dry humour. The Media lost interest right away and nothing has been heard of Ex-Nun/s/s/s since. They also tried to have George for 'conspiracy of silence and molestation, they failed!!!.
H.E. is such an incredible man, the media now dont go near him, they are in fear of his persona and obvious holiness.
God bless George, the next Pope?
God bless and Mary protect you all
Br CreosMary

 

[Tyler_Smedley]

Pray, thats what he should do, his daughter must know his/the Church’s position on her actions and then the only recouse is to pray…

 

[Blake002]

dennisknapp:

Can you define “no matter what!?” What does this mean to you? What, in your opinion, should Keyes do with the situation?

Peace

To me, no matter what is what it means, no matter what, everyone needs to love their children regardless, IM not saying he can’t disagree with her.

Let’s say someone’s child committed murder, are these parents going to be happy and glad of what their child has done? No! I am sure they will not back their child’s actions, but that does not mean they still can’t love their child.

As far as what Keyes should do? I am not sure, all I am saying is he is now in the same position that Cheney was in that he commented on, a private family matter that should not have made public.

As a Democrat, I believe that the media who interviewed Keyes was trying to set a trap for him by making a comment on the VP’s “Family” situation, which is unfortunate that the media these days want to do things like this.

On a side note, as a Democrat I believe the short sample of the tapes of Bush that were recorded before he ran for the presidential office did no harm to Bush. He gave all the right reasons on why he would not what the drug issue up, if only people in other walks of life (like athletes) would realize that kids look up to them. It’s sad that this man did not burn those tapes or at least turn them over to Bush without fanfare, and the media is jumping on it (the tapes).

 

[Fiat]

katherine2:

I don’t think you are. I don’t accept the premise that by hiring a person, an employer is accepting or promoting aspects of that persons life such as the fact that he is gay.

I do not want to live in a society where people’s paycheck is held over them to follow what the boss determines is moral behavior. If a particular boss thinks he is endorsing such actions of someone else simply because he has not fired him, I think he needs to get over it. These are employees, not serfs.

if my boss is a teetotaler should he be allowed to fire me because I have a beer on Sunday?

Katherine:
If your boss is a teetotaler and you drink a beer on Sunday, he DOES have the right to fire you! I indicated before that I think you have no idea what Congress means when it uses the term “discrimination,” nor do you have any idea how civil rights are applicable at the state level!

The Bill of Rights are applicable at the federal level, Katherine2. Through the 14th amendment, they are applicable to the states. However, this involves only GOVERNMENTAL ACTION, and not personal action!

I’m guessing that your ideal government is quite a fascist regime!

Fiat