Alberta bishops boycott March for Life over graphic images

[catharina]

No, according to even science, it’s up to the person making a positive claim to prove it, unless the person making a negative claim is making it against an established theorem (“established” means hundreds of years, books full of evidence supporting it, multiple thesis’ written on it, ect.). The idea that GAP/others cause conversion is not an established theory nor a fact (and it’s only been around for what, <5 years?). If there’s been some conversions, there should be evidence for that (same thing I ask people who hate Harry Potter to do, present the evidence. It shouldn’t be hard).

In that case, it’s even less likely to work then. You’re just telling people what they already know. Graphic images don’t give them any reason why they should think differently.

You’re not understanding the differentiation again. Pictures will only change someone’s mind if they already are thinking that way.

Let’s take an example. Person A supports War X. Person A also already opposes slaughter of innocent civilians. If Person A finds out that slaughter of innocent civillians is happening in War X, they’re probably going to change their mind and oppose War X.

Person A seeing a graphic image of an abortion doesn’t have a reason to change their mind. You show them video of a sonogram of the baby moving and then a graphic image, then maybe they think for a second.

I’m an engineer. In all honesty, The Pulitzer Prize interests me about as much as contemporary art (which in none), or the Oscars (who mange to year after year make the worst decisions about who gets an award). Basically, I don’t care.

And no, we didn’t take it in school. We were too busy learning about actual history in history class (particularly what happened before and including WWI, which in many ways is much more interesting than what’s happened in the last 70 years. Probably why I read historical fiction set in the Middle Ages).

They have tried to work with the people who organize the March and those others with the graphic images to no avail. The people with the graphic images aren’t actually a part of the march. Maybe I should have made that known. The March takes place on the street, while the people with the graphic images stand on the sidewalk in what would be the “observers/watchers” section. They’re not actually a part of the march. They’re more like people who show up at a march to promote their own thing.

The Masses (a vigil the night before, and the morning after the march) are both still on. The bishops are also not opposing people taking part in the march.

You make the oddest references for one who is “above” recent history.
Di Caprio? Harry Potter? **Very difficult **to take you seriously. Really.
Do you understand the word “disconnect” in regard to recent history?

 

[kimmielittle]

No, according to even science, it’s up to the person making a positive claim to prove it, unless the person making a negative claim is making it against an established theorem (“established” means hundreds of years, books full of evidence supporting it, multiple thesis’ written on it, ect.). The idea that GAP/others cause conversion is not an established theory nor a fact (and it’s only been around for what, <5 years?). If there’s been some conversions, there should be evidence for that (same thing I ask people who hate Harry Potter to do, present the evidence. It shouldn’t be hard).

A refresher:
In post #29 You made these statements; Here they are in total

I support them in it because it simply doesn’t work. You’re not going to convert anyone with graphic images. A graphic image doesn’t inspire conversion; it invokes defence. It’s simply psychology. People feel attacked by these, and humans naturally go on the defensive when they feel attacked.

In post number 37 I broke your statement up:

Quote:Originally Posted by curlycool89

I support them in it because it simply doesn’t work.

Please support this statement. I don’t believe you can

Quote:You’re not going to convert anyone with graphic images.

Please support this statement. I don’t believe you can

Quote:A graphic image doesn’t inspire conversion; it invokes defence.

Please support this statement. I don’t believe you can It very well may… invoke defense and be offensive … BUT

Let me give you an example.

There is a famous horrific picture of a little naked girl running from a napalm attack in Vietnam. Her clothes had been burned off of her. It inspired conversion .

PS It’s shown to elementary school kids - as you will remember.

These are statements of yours.Stated as 100% factual.....I'm asking you to prove them factual, please.

I have by example proved that graphic imagines do sometimes inspire conversion...

Let's take this statement of fact issued by you



> Quote:You're not going to convert anyone with graphic images. 




Do you wish to prove it?

I made no statement - except that "There is a famous horrific picture of a little naked girl running from a napalm attack in Vietnam. Her clothes had been burned off of her. It inspired conversion".... We have evidence since... that shows... it DID "inspire conversion" .

Your part is to prove YOUR statements as factual :)

In debating : If you make a statement as factual...be prepared to be asked for evidence /support of that statements facts - This is how logical debate works. :)

 

[kimmielittle]

The idea that GAP/others cause conversion is not an established theory nor a fact (and it’s only been around for what, <5 years?).If there’s been some conversions, there should be evidence for that (same thing I ask people who hate Harry Potter to do, present the evidence. It shouldn’t be hard).

Here is another statement offered by you as factual - no one has had a conversion…there is no evidence of anyone having a conversion.

With ease I pull up this conversion: pulled from the very OT articles comments ]

Posted by ForLife on Mar 18, 2011

Please hear me out. I am post abortive (2 children), I am a Registered Nurse, I am Roman Catholic.

1. I know that if someone had shown me those “graphic images” when I was contemplating my abortions - I would have chosen life for my children
2. The display of those “graphic images” gives my children their voice.
   a) It is justice for them.
   b) It is my gift of love to them.
   c) It gives purpose to their torture.
3. It is truth. It is the truth that will set us free.
4. You have chosen “a side” on this issue of “graphic images” - thus you empower the very one who is at the root of the evil of human sacrifice.
   It is he that uses this issue of “graphic imagery” to divide the pro-life camp.
5. Finally - it is not a “graphic image” it is a child!
   and, 7) Many believe the Crucifix is too graphic. Thank God you men were not in the debate when the use of the image of our Lord on the Cross became the issue of the day.
   Please hear me. I must convey to you that I believe you are wrong in this issue. Just look at the Cross.
   Don’t divide the camp.
   Constance Thomson RN

lifesitenews.com/?/news/alberta-bishops-boycott-march-for-life-over-graphic-images

It suggests your statement above, is misleading.

If you are trying to say, “IMO it’s mostly ineffective”… ???

Then I have to ask: If it could have stopped the poster I quoted above, as she states, from aborting two babys…How much more effective does it need be?

 

[Lujack]

That’s sad IMHO

In fairness, what do US classrooms teach about Louis Riel? And the US invasion of Canada in the War of 1812 is a huge part of Canadian history but means little to the United States. There’s no real reason that Vietnam should be considered as important to Canadians as it is to the United States.

 

[catharina]

In fairness, what do US classrooms teach about Louis Riel? And the US invasion of Canada in the War of 1812 is a huge part of Canadian history but means little to the United States. There’s no real reason that Vietnam should be considered as important to Canadians as it is to the United States.

The petinent issue is that a very famous photo, winner of a Pulitzer Prize,
is discounted as merely a record of the Vietnam War and USA involvement.

No. It is an iconic image that has been recognized for almost 40 yrs as an
instrument of profound change all over the world in regard to a particular war.

Who can’t grasp this example?
We are speaking of the power of photos.
Are there significant pics related to the War of 1812?
If so, guess I missed that …

 

[kimmielittle]

In fairness, what do US classrooms teach about Louis Riel? And the US invasion of Canada in the War of 1812 is a huge part of Canadian history but means little to the United States. There’s no real reason that Vietnam should be considered as important to Canadians as it is to the United States.

Even though Canadians fought in it? Kids in the USA are taught this - I would hope Canadians are too.

essortment.com/canadas-involvement-vietnam-war-21583.html

 

[catharina]

Even though Canadians fought in it? Kids in the USA are taught this - I would hope Canadians are too.

essortment.com/canadas-involvement-vietnam-war-21583.html

It seems Canadians are still arguing “relevance” over the Canadian troops
who served with the USA in Vietnam. IOW, folks are still arguing about it.

Simplest link from wiki:

"Canadians in the U.S. military In counter-current to the movement American draft-dodgers and deserters to Canada, about 30,000 Canadians volunteered to fight in southeast Asia.[21] Among the volunteers were fifty Mohawks from the Kahnawake reserve near Montreal.[22] One-hundred and ten (110) Canadians died in Vietnam, and seven remain listed as Missing in Action. Canadian Peter C. Lemon was awarded the U.S. Medal of Honor for his valour in the conflict. (This cross-border enlistment was not unprecedented: In both the First and the Second World War, tens of thousands of Americans had joined the Canadian forces whilst their homeland was still neutral.)[citation needed]

In Windsor, Ontario, there is a privately funded monument to the Canadians killed in the Vietnam War.[23] In Melocheville, Quebec, there is a monument site funded by the Association Québécoise des Vétérans du Vietnam.[24] However, many Canadian veterans returned to a society that was strongly anti-war. Unlike in the United States, there were no veterans organizations nor any help from the government. Many of them moved permanently to the United States. There has been ongoing pressure from Canadian Vietnam veterans to have their comrades’ deaths formally acknowledged by the government, especially in times of remembrance such as Remembrance Day."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Vietnam_War

 

[kimmielittle]

In fairness, what do US classrooms teach about Louis Riel? And the US invasion of Canada in the War of 1812 is a huge part of Canadian history but means little to the United States.

IMO it’s represented well…after all the White House was trashed

We even have DVDS and songs about that period in history
~singin~ In 1814 we took a little trip…Along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty missip…

 

[kimmielittle]

The petinent issue is that a very famous photo, winner of a Pulitzer Prize,
is discounted as merely a record of the Vietnam War and USA involvement.

No. It is an iconic image that has been recognized for almost 40 yrs as an
instrument of profound change all over the world in regard to a particular war.

Who can’t grasp this example?
We are speaking of the power of photos.

 

[Tigg]

I think that in your zeal to promote propaganda, you have forgotten whose dignity you are supposed to be protecting. Our duty toward the dead is to see that their bodies are treated with respect, and that they receive a decent burial - not to exploit them for political gain.

Since when is the movement to protect life, “propaganda?” Anyway, a little late for that, wouldn’t you say, since most likely, their bodies have ended up in trash cans. Is the dignity of the dead more important than the chance to possibly save just one innocent life?

 

[Havard]

Since when is the movement to protect life, “propaganda?” Anyway, a little late for that, wouldn’t you say, since most likely, their bodies have ended up in trash cans. Is the dignity of the dead more important than the chance to possibly save just one innocent life?

If you’re going down that route…

CCC 1753: (The ends never justify the means.)

I think you’d have a better chance arguing is that it’s isn’t an offense to dignity, but that’s just my opinion.

 

[Lujack]

IMO it’s represented well…after all the White House was trashed

We even have DVDS and songs about that period in history
~singin~ In 1814 we took a little trip…Along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty missip…

We have DVDs and songs about that period in history? We have DVDs and songs about all periods in history; that doesn’t mean that any history class seriously studies the War of 1812, especially since the Battle of New Orleans was fought after the peace treaty and was pretty much irrelevant to the causes and outcomes (although it was very important since it launched Andrew Jackson).

 

[Tigg]

If you’re going down that route…

CCC 1753: (The ends never justify the means.)

I think you’d have a better chance arguing is that it’s isn’t an offense to dignity, but that’s just my opinion.

Perhaps…Church teaching only states that the physical bodies of the dead must be treated with dignity and respect - the other is implied. So we’re back to those awful pictures, which, now I’m more inclined to say should not be used. Interesting debate.

 

[kimmielittle]

If you’re going down that route…

CCC 1753: (The ends never justify the means.)

I think you’d have a better chance arguing is that it’s isn’t an offense to dignity, but that’s just my opinion.

Good points.

Who’s dignity is being offended?
Are the posters / poster carriers… being offensive to the dignity of the baby pictured?
OR is it offensive to OUR dignity to have to see the posters?

Truth is oft times offensive to our dignity - .

 

[kimmielittle]

If you’re going down that route…

CCC 1753: (The ends never justify the means.)

However, this assumes that a “wrong” is being committed in order to gain a “right”.

 

[kimmielittle]

We have DVDs and songs about that period in history? We have DVDs and songs about all periods in history; that doesn’t mean that any history class seriously studies the War of 1812, especially since the Battle of New Orleans was fought after the peace treaty and was pretty much irrelevant to the causes and outcomes (although it was very important since it launched Andrew Jackson).

How did I know about the White House being trashed?

Now, as to “seriously studies”… That’s quite open to interpretation, now isn’t it. You, being a history buff …Could ANY elementary coverage be enough?

The fact is: Yes, the war of 1812 is covered. Sooo the strawman you presented as justification for not knowing about Canadians serving in Vietnam…doesn’t exist

The association of the picture to just Vietnam - is erroneous …Yes,It was taken of a Vietnam girl…BUT the World has used it to promote “What happens to Children of Wars” - ALL Wars.

 

[Lujack]

How did I know about the White House being trashed?

Now, as to “seriously studies”… That’s quite open to interpretation, now isn’t it. You, being a history buff …Could ANY elementary coverage be enough?

The fact is: Yes, the war of 1812 is covered. Sooo the strawman you presented as justification for not knowing about Canadians serving in Vietnam…doesn’t exist

The association of the picture to just Vietnam - is erroneous …Yes,It was taken of a Vietnam girl…BUT the World has used it to promote “What happens to Children of Wars” - ALL Wars.

I am a history buff (although I’m honestly bored by 1812, so…), but my point was that the War of 1812 is often treated as a footnote. The Canadian poster didn’t say that they didn’t study the war at all in Canada, he said that it was just a footnote. My point wasn’t really that we don’t study the war at all, but that 1812 is much more important to Canadians than it is to the US (what do you know about Lundy’s Lane? I don’t know much about Lundy’s Lane, either). On the other hand, Vietnam is central to us, but not so much to Canadians. “Footnote” does not equate to “never studied at all”.

 

[kimmielittle]

I am a history buff (although I’m honestly bored by 1812, so…), but my point was that the War of 1812 is often treated as a footnote. The Canadian poster didn’t say that they didn’t study the war at all in Canada, he said that it was just a footnote. My point wasn’t really that we don’t study the war at all, but that 1812 is much more important to Canadians than it is to the US

(what do you know about Lundy’s Lane? I don’t know much about Lundy’s Lane, either).

Wasn’t it the battle of Niagara Falls Ontario? If so, it was one of the bloodiest battles in Canadian History. on Canadian Soil.

On the other hand, Vietnam is central to us, but not so much to Canadians. “Footnote” does not equate to “never studied at all”.

 

[catharina]

If you’re going down that route…

CCC 1753: (The ends never justify the means.)

I think you’d have a better chance arguing is that it’s isn’t an offense to dignity, but that’s just my opinion.

Ok. I’m missing some point here, I guess.

From the Catechism:

“1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. The end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).”

Who is saying that the display of photos of aborted babies, slaughtered
innocents, is in any way an intrinsically disorderd behaviour? I can’t imagine
that is the thinking of anyone. The intrinsically disorder act is abortion -
not seeing the results of abortion on the innocents taken from the womb.

 

[jmcrae]

Hmmmmmm…abortionist have kept unborn murdered babies in jars and freezers…for decades…haven’t you heard?

lifenews.com/2010/09/06/state-5422/

OR Google aborted babies in jars

Your stretch of “photographers murdering these kids for the photo-op is nonsense” IMO

Medical Schools also have the pictures

Medical schools document every procedure with photographs and notes, including abortions, one would assume. But I don’t think they hire pro-lifers to do this work.