Alcohol drinking

[serendipity]

A Baptist preacher talked to me about this once. His belief was that the wine used in the Bible for religious services was not alcoholic. That there are many stages before fermentation, and the type drunken for religious purposes was not at the alcoholic stage. He didn’t call it grape juice, but I suppose it was a similar concept.

Personally, I would think that if there were many derivatives of the juice from grpes before it became wine, then there would be different words used for it in the Bible. That we would not have “wine” used so often as the word for what was used for religious worship in the Old and New Testament.

 

[deb1]

SPOKENWORD:

Okay I was manipulating scriptures a little.Anyways anyone who abuses alcohol is commiting sin to the temple of the living God and also causing his brother to fall. God Bless

Not causing your brother to fall was one of the many reasons that I was told not to drink. I would think that drinking in moderation, without getting drunk, would be an example for fellow Christians. After all, it what Jesus practiced.

 

[geezerbob]

deb1:

Not causing your brother to fall was one of the many reasons that I was told not to drink. I would think that drinking in moderation, without getting drunk, would be an example for fellow Christians. After all, it what Jesus practiced.

According to AA, about 10% of those who drink alcohol become addicted to it, regardless of how responsibly others around them might drink. For this reason, among others, my personal decision is to not imbibe.

 

[Servant1]

serendipity:

A Baptist preacher talked to me about this once. His belief was that the wine used in the Bible for religious services was not alcoholic. That there are many stages before fermentation, and the type drunken for religious purposes was not at the alcoholic stage. He didn’t call it grape juice, but I suppose it was a similar concept.

In fact, Serendipity, the preacher who talked to you about this should ask a Jew… a practicing Jew. One of those will tell you that, absent medical reasons requiring total abstention, the wine of Passover SHOULD be alcoholic wine, of the best that one can afford. There are books written explaining Jewish practices and laws dealing specifically with why alcoholic wine was required for the Passover. I don’t possess one of those books, but I’ve had 2 of them in my hands, lent me by a friend, and have read in them fairly extensively.

I have another friend, an Orthodox Jew, who relates to me that on one Jewish festival, an obedient Jew will retire to a specific place constructed for the purpose and therein will proceed to drink until at least tipsy. To be honest, I’ve forgotten the name of thie festival or holiday, but I very clearly remember the detail into which she went describing the imbibing that was required.

Bottom line is that anybody who tells you the wine used in Jewish rituals is not alcoholic hasn’t asked many Jews about it. They’ve been at their cycle of holy days and festivals for close to 6000 years, and I will lend a practicing Jew more credence about the alcoholic content of the wine they use than I will lend to a person who is an avowed opposer of any alcoholic imbibing. The latter person clearly has an agenda, the former has nearly 6000 years of Jewish history.

Mazel tov!

 

[deb1]

geezerbob:

According to AA, about 10% of those who drink alcohol become addicted to it, regardless of how responsibly others around them might drink. For this reason, among others, my personal decision is to not imbibe.

It seems that I read somewhere(sorry don’t remember where) that there are lower levels of alcohol abuse in European countries-I was thinking France- then here in America. Considering that children grow up witnessing their parents use alcohol as part of their meal and not a means to get drunk, I would think that proves my point. Regardless, I respect your choice not to drink just as I hope that you respect another Christian’s choice to indulge in an occasional glass of wine.

 

[deb1]

geezerbob:

According to AA, about 10% of those who drink alcohol become addicted to it, regardless of how responsibly others around them might drink. For this reason, among others, my personal decision is to not imbibe.

I read somewhere that there is a lower level of alcoholism in France then here in America. Children grow up witnessing their parents use alcohol as a part of a meal, not a way to get drunk. By your reasoning their should be a higher level of alcohol abuse in France then here. Regardless, I respect your right to remain alcohol free and I hope that you respect my right to indulge in the occasional glass of wine.

 

[deb1]

Darn, I thought that my post had not gone through. Sorry about saying the same thing twice.

 

[deb1]

serendipity:

A Baptist preacher talked to me about this once. His belief was that the wine used in the Bible for religious services was not alcoholic. That there are many stages before fermentation, and the type drunken for religious purposes was not at the alcoholic stage. He didn’t call it grape juice, but I suppose it was a similar concept.

QUOTE]

All right, I got this off the web. in 1869 Dr Thomas Bramwell Welch was living in a town with a law against the consumption of alcohol. He invented a reliable method of perserving grape juice. He labed it as unfermented sacramental wine. His son, Charles, introduced grape juice in the 1893 World fair in Chicage.

You can find most of this info on Welch’s Grape Juice’s home page. If safely perserving grape juice was not invented until 1869 then how could Jesus have drunk unfermented wine?

 

[Marysgirl]

I think this is a topic that we have to agree to disagree. Christians have been arguing back and forth on this subject forever. I don’t think it will ever change. People are very passionate on both sides. Both sides can make their case to prove their position. The only time I get really hot about it is when alcohol has to be on the menu at a church function. I think it is very insensitive to those of us who don’t believe in drinking and also to those who have a drinking problem. I just don’t get it.

 

[MariaG]

posted by serendipity
A Baptist preacher talked to me about this once. His belief was that the wine used in the Bible for religious services was not alcoholic. That there are many stages before fermentation, and the type drunken for religious purposes was not at the alcoholic stage. He didn’t call it grape juice, but I suppose it was a similar concept.

Personally, I would think that if there were many derivatives of the juice from grpes before it became wine, then there would be different words used for it in the Bible. That we would not have “wine” used so often as the word for what was used for religious worship in the Old and New Testament.

Deb,
When in a Nazarene Church, a similar explanation to this and the one you said were the kind given.

She said, (the pastor’s wife) that since there was no way to preserve grape juice, the grape juice became unintentionally an alcoholic drink. All unintentionally though. That is why they use grape juice for communion. Because Jesus never purposely drank wine and we call wine today.

The info previously posted on Jews seems to debunk that, but many Protestants are not real strong on history.

As to why it is important, it was brought up to me that the Catholic Church was in error to serve wine. The Catholic Church must be wrong in many areas or what are you protesting?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Serendipity, the Baptist preacher that you cite is just plain wrong. He is letting his prejudices against alcohol get the better of his scripture.

MariaG, you posted:

She said, (the pastor’s wife) that since there was no way to preserve grape juice, the grape juice became unintentionally an alcoholic drink. All unintentionally though. That is why they use grape juice for communion. Because Jesus never purposely drank wine and we call wine today.

The pastor’s wife is, like the Baptist preacher, just plain wrong.

The info previously posted on Jews seems to debunk that…

Thank you!

…but many Protestants are not real strong on history.

It certainly looks that way.

Servant1, you posted:

In fact, Serendipity, the preacher who talked to you about this should ask a Jew… a practicing Jew.

I would be happy to trade emails with Serendipity’s Baptist preacher friend! (Serendipity, send me a private message & I’ll give you my email address to give to him.)

One of those will tell you that, absent medical reasons requiring total abstention, the wine of Passover SHOULD be alcoholic wine, of the best that one can afford.

Quite correct. As I wrote in my first post (post #13 above): “At the ceremonial Passover meal known as the Seder (jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm), we drink 4 cups of wine. Normally, during the year, when the blessing over wine is recited on Friday night & the evenings of major holydays, and again on Saturday morning & the mornings of major holydays, and on Saturday night when the Sabbath is over & the evenings after major holydays, grape juice may certainly be used (DW & I always have grape juice around for Da Boyz). But on Passover, it is strongly recommended by nearly all (orthodox!) rabbinical authorities that if one insists on drinking grape juice, that at least some wine be mixed in with the grape juice. (Recovering alcoholics & people who are banned from drinking wine for medical reasons, may use all grape juice.) No one is supposed to get drunk at the Passover Seder…The Seder includes a very large meal & the minimal amount defined as a ‘cup’ is not that large.”

I have another friend, an Orthodox Jew, who relates to me that on one Jewish festival, an obedient Jew will retire to a specific place constructed for the purpose and therein will proceed to drink until at least tipsy. To be honest, I’ve forgotten the name of thie festival or holiday, but I very clearly remember the detail into which she went describing the imbibing that was required.

This would be our holyday of Purim (jewfaq.org/holiday9.htm) & it starts…this Thursday night!

Bottom line is that anybody who tells you the wine used in Jewish rituals is not alcoholic hasn’t asked many Jews about it. They’ve been at their cycle of holy days and festivals for close to 6000 years, and I will lend a practicing Jew more credence about the alcoholic content of the wine they use than I will lend to a person who is an avowed opposer of any alcoholic imbibing. The latter person clearly has an agenda, the former has nearly 6000 years of Jewish history.

Very good! You have studied Judaism (more than a little, it appears)! As I mentioned in my first post w-i-n-e was used in the Temple & anyone who says that it wasn’t is saying the scriptural/historical equivalent of 2+2=5. I will raise a glass/bottle to you on this Thursday night!

Mazel tov!

And to you!

Be well!

ssv

 

[Ghosty]

I’m reminded of the Mel Brooks film “Men in Tights”, in which Friar Tuck is replaced by a Rabbi Tuckman.

When he’s asked to share his ample supply of wine, he states that’s it’s special, sacramental, wine only used to bless things, and Robin Hood and his friends are disappointed. He retorts (and I can’t remember the exact words), "Wait, there’s TONS of stuff to bless here! There’s trees, and birds, all gifts from God. Let’s bless them all until we’re schnockered (insert Yiddish word in place of schnockered).

Obviously it was meant as a joke, but it carried a certain grain of truth to it. It uses seeming irreverence to highlight a very reverent point, namely that wine is a gift from God and, used properly, is a holy thing. This isn’t even a matter of imposing a pious justification on an unholy thing, but rather a very literal recognition of a Biblical truth (as can be seen by Orthodox Jewish insistance on real wine being used). God insists that we celebrate certain things, and has even given us a physical means to aid our enjoyment and celebration. This isn’t meant as a replacement for prayer and pious action, but as an enhancement to it. God built us to enjoy certain events, and built His law for us in such a way as to incorporate our physical, as well as our spiritual, enjoyment of it. This is no different than the way that humans naturally find a sunrise beautiful. To put it blunty, God really is that good!

This isn’t to encourage licentious (abusive) use of alcohol, and I believe those who are truly pious will understand the meaning of what I’m saying. God has seen fit to make our fulfillment of his demands, such as “being fruitful and multiplying”, enjoyable AND healthy in the correct context. Personally it makes me love God that much more that He has made His requests so pleasing to the human mind, soul, and body; He truly knows us better than we know ourselves, IMO. Lord knows I couldn’t have done better

SSV: I completely forgot about Purim coming up! I’ll have to see if my Jewish friends have any hamentashen in the works! It’s been too long since I’ve enjoyed some good hamentashen

 

[SPOKENWORD]

deb1:

Not causing your brother to fall was one of the many reasons that I was told not to drink. I would think that drinking in moderation, without getting drunk, would be an example for fellow Christians. After all, it what Jesus practiced.

For some one glass of wine will dull their senses even though we might think a glass of wine is drinking in moderation. God Bless

 

[Mickey]

SPOKENWORD:

For some one glass of wine will dull their senses even though we might think a glass of wine is drinking in moderation. God Bless

For an alcoholic, one glass of wine is dangerous because it could re-ignite an addiction. For someone who has a very low body weight, one galss of wine could dull the senses and so might not be recommended. For others, one or two glasses of red wine per night may be recommended for a healthy heart.

 

[Michael_C]

serendipity:

A Baptist preacher talked to me about this once. His belief was that the wine used in the Bible for religious services was not alcoholic. That there are many stages before fermentation, and the type drunken for religious purposes was not at the alcoholic stage. He didn’t call it grape juice, but I suppose it was a similar concept.

Personally, I would think that if there were many derivatives of the juice from grpes before it became wine, then there would be different words used for it in the Bible. That we would not have “wine” used so often as the word for what was used for religious worship in the Old and New Testament.

Hi Serendipity, If Passover falls right before spring and the grape harvest is in the fall how could the grapes have been preserved or the wine have not been at a fermentation stage by passover?

Peace.

 

[scylla]

Marysgirl,
If you mean people have been argueing over the existence of wine in Jewish forever, then I would have to disagree. There is absolutely no evidence for believing that. The only Christians arguing over this has not been forever just for the last 400 or so years. Here are some links.
geocities.com/rainforest/5830/proglenn.html

Now I do agree with you on how it can be offensive, but as anything it is not a bad thing. Just like the computer you are sitting at right now can lead to sinful behavior, it does not mean that the computer is bad. The tendancy of the person sitting in front of it to do such if the problem and if they have a problem with that then unfortunately they should abstain from using it.

Just the same with alcohol, it isn’t a bad thing. It is a very good thing, when used in moderation. Many people have the ability to drink alcohol in moderation. There are many people who do not and should abstain.

One of the problems with many cultures is people are pushed and pushed to drink regardless of what their convictions are and that is a shame. I see wine at my Church but I can refuse it, I always have the option of saying I don’t drink.

The Catholic Church won’t change the truth of the existance of wine, but will always recommend abstinence for people who shouldn’t drink and moderation for those who do.

Just people don’t like to listen to the Church and want to do their own thing. (it’s more fun to get drunk)

 

[Mt19_26]

I think drinking alcohol in moderation is okay. When it comes a sin is when we start drinking with the full intent to get ‘wasted’.

I believe another thing to consider is the person. If the person is a recovering alcoholic it could be more sinful for that person to drink because of ‘near ocassion of sin’. A recovering alcoholic would be more likely to loose control and drink until he/she is drunk.

 

[need_to_know]

Probably only for Catholics, Book of Sirach Chapter 31 Verse 35 - ‘Sir 31:35 Wine was created from the beginning to make men joyful, and not to make them drunk.’

 

[Isidore_AK]

The book of Sirach chapter 31 says:

32 Wine taken with sobriety is of equal life to men: if thou drink it moderately, thou shalt be sober.

35 Wine was created from the beginning to make men joyful, and not to make them drunk.

36 Wine drunken with moderation is the joy of the soul and the heart.

37 Sober drinking is health to soul and body.

and…

41 Rebuke not thy neighbour in a banquet of wine: and despise him not in hip mirth.

Need_to_know>> You beat me to it! I was too slow collecting all my quotes…

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Isidore_AK:

The book of Sirach chapter 31 says:

32 Wine taken with sobriety is of equal life to men: if thou drink it moderately, thou shalt be sober.

35 Wine was created from the beginning to make men joyful, and not to make them drunk.

36 Wine drunken with moderation is the joy of the soul and the heart.

37 Sober drinking is health to soul and body.

and…

41 Rebuke not thy neighbour in a banquet of wine: and despise him not in hip mirth.

Need_to_know>> You beat me to it! I was too slow collecting all my quotes…

Hi Isi, great book for catholics to justify drinking. God Bless