Alcohol drinking

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Hi all!

I mentioned above that our holyday of Purim (jewfaq.org/holiday9.htm) starts tomorrow night.

Try this one from Esther 1:11-12 on the perils of drink:
…he [Ahasuerus] commanded…to bring Vashti the queen before the king with the crown royal, to show the peoples and the princes her beauty; for she was fair to look on. But the queen Vashti refused to come at the king’s command…
Our Sages discern something curious in that Ahasuerus ordered that Vashti appear in public with her crown on, just before a reference to her being a knockout. Don’t queens usually wear their crowns, especially in public? Our Sages teach that Ahasuerus, whose heart, “was merry with wine,” wanted Vashti to appear wearing only her crown. Not surprisingly, she refused!

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
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MariaG:
She said, (the pastor’s wife) that since there was no way to preserve grape juice, the grape juice became unintentionally an alcoholic drink. All unintentionally though. That is why they use grape juice for communion. Because Jesus never purposely drank wine and we call wine today.
Methinks that if you just leave grape juice sitting around and don’t intentionally do anything to it, you will get vinegar, not wine. You have to be a little careful to let yeast but not bacteria into it. So I don’t think there’s such a thing as unintentional wine - you either have intentional wine, or you have vinegar.
 
Bobby Jim:
Methinks that if you just leave grape juice sitting around and don’t intentionally do anything to it, you will get vinegar, not wine. You have to be a little careful to let yeast but not bacteria into it. So I don’t think there’s such a thing as unintentional wine - you either have intentional wine, or you have vinegar.
As a teenager, I watched a documentary that showed animals getting apparently drunk after eating rotting fruit. This was many, many years ago( I am SO old) and I don’t know all the in and outs of alcohol making.

I remember reading that one of the first buildings put up by the Puritans was a bewery. What happened between then and now? WHen did drinking alcohol become a sin to some Protestant denominations? I am having trouble finding this history on the web.
 
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deb1:
When I attended a Baptist Church, the pastor was very adament that drinking alcohol was not only a sin but he seemed to imply that a saved person would not drink any alcohol even in moderation. … I’ve even found some web sites that claim that Jesus turned water into grape juice!
Isn’t amazing how much non-Biblical stuff many of the “sola scriptura” crowd rely on to make their point?
 
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Timidity:
Isn’t amazing how much non-Biblical stuff many of the “sola scriptura” crowd rely on to make their point?
Darn, you beat me to it. 🙂

Amazingly some Catholics also try to sneak their personal opinions in as well. Someone who said we will have to agree to disagree, I am afraid I must disagree. There is nothing in Church teaching that is a general pohibition of the drinking of alcohol. There is no just cause for offense when alcohol is present at a social function.

Scott
 
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SPOKENWORD:
Hi Isi, great book for catholics to justify drinking. 👍 God Bless
If I may offer another Bible quote about drinking alcohol, there is Deuteronomy 14:26, which is actually part of a passage about tithing. Moses is commanding the Israelites to bring their tithes to the central location of worship, but if they live too far away they are to sell the tithe for money, bring the money, and then use the money to buy whatever they liked (“oxen, sheep, wine, or strong drink”–note that strong drink is mentioned separately so that there is no confusion) and have a party. And they are not to forget the Levite who lives with them.
- Liberian
 
Just another point about Cana… If the wedding festivities ran out of wine, then they must have already been drinking more heavily than expected. Jesus didn’t look around and say "No, woman, some of these folks look over the limit”.

I think a person needs to take a sober look at how alcohol affects their relationships/potential relationships/self-relationship to determine if it’s sinful.
 
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Marysgirl:
Sorry but I disagree!
Is that it? Just a disagree with no support from Chuch teaching to back your disagreement? I guess the advice is well heeded: speak with the many, think with the few.

Scott
 
There is never going to be an end to this discussion. You can quote any scripture that you want and you will never convince me that it is building up the kingdom by including alchol at church social functions. This is exactly why I made the statement that this is an area that we have to just accept the fact that there are strong feelings on both sides. I don’t care what anyone does in their life regarding drinking. I am only saying that I should have the right to go to church functions and not worry about people standing around drinking. That only seems reasonable to me. Why should I have to deal with this issue are church? Why is it so important to include alcohol? It’s not like including baked potatoes and I don’t like baked potatoes. This is an area of big disagreement and if for no other reason than it is a stumbling block to many people, why is it that important to have it. The only time drinking becomes an issue for me is when you try to bring it into my home or my church at social functions. By the way I do not have a drinking problem, I just am firmly convicted that no good comes from it. Some people don’t think there is anything wrong with gambling but I don’t want slot machines in my parrish hall either. To me there isn’t any difference. I’m not trying to change your mind, I just don’t want to deal with it at church. I think it sends a very confusing message.
 
Scott Waddell:
Is that it? Just a disagree with no support from Chuch teaching to back your disagreement? I guess the advice is well heeded: speak with the many, think with the few.

Scott
By the way Scott, that was a rude thing to say.
 
Marysgirl,
I know this is difficult, we all have crosses to bear

As I said before I am not sure if you read it. Alcohol is not a bad thing, Jesus drank it, he even supplied it, he never sinned. The bad thing is excess, I cannot imagine Jesus drinking too much, people do need to be taught more strongly, that most anything in excess is bad.
Example:
Gluttony is a sin, there are many people who have a problem overeating and wasting food. But just because people have a problem with it, or can’t control themselves doesn’t mean that the Church should forbid it, many people have absolutely no problem with it.
(DISCLAIMER, THIS IS AN ANOTHER EXAMPLE)
Lets suppose I am married and I have a wandering eye. I just can’t keep my eyes off the women in Church, does that mean the Church should keep women out because of my problem?
I should pray and keep focused on the Mass, as I am there to worship God.

In seeing alcohol at a Church function, there is absolutely nothing wrong, but the person or anyone who knows the person should be aware of their problem and help that person keep away from it.

God Bless
 
Marysgirl: Do yourself a favor and never, EVER go to a Purim celebration. I went to two last night, one was practically secular, and the other was attended strictly by Orthodox and Conservative Jews and their friends. The secular one had some spiked punch and some wine, and was fairly sedate with only a few people cursing Haman and cheering Mordachai.

The more religiously conservative one was…I’ve never seen that much drinking and shouting without someone getting taken away in an ambulance :p. The Rabbi doing the reading, who I believe was Modern Orthodox, was not only incredible in his reading, but almost managed to knock over the podium with his foot stamping and fist-pounding when Haman came up. After the reading we were all but required to have a few drinks, and we were dancing wildly to guitar renditions of traditional Hebrew songs. It was a wonderful celebration of life and survival, espescially fitting due to its proximity to Easter this year although it would have been perfect if it fell just afterwards and not durning Lent.

The point is that, at the second party espescially, we were all very faithful people celebrating life, survival, and the fact that God protects His people and ALWAYS provides. Sure, we could have celebrated these things without the alcohol, and we should everyday in someway or another, but in this case the drinks loosened us up and honestly pushed us to a level of revelry that would have been hard to reach otherwise. It helped us to forget our worries for awhile and truly praise and celebrate God. It’s not something to be done every week, obviously, but I do believe that there are times when such behavior is actually pious.

Now as for social functions with your church, you have to remember that alcohol is not prohibited by the Church (God forbid), and there’s no solid reason for barring adults from consuming it out of hand. Obviously if it leads to a lot of improper behavior, then the issue needs to be evaluated and steps taken to protect people. If the alcohol isn’t causing people to harm you, however, I see no reason beyond personal disgust with it for wanting it banned. It’s not like smoking in which it spills over into your body simply by virtue of proximity.

We’re not required to drink it (again, don’t go to a Purim celebration!), but it is not considered inherently unhealthy by the Church. Your personal preference is just that, and it isn’t fair to foist it on others when they aren’t foisting their behavior on you, espescially since their behavior is perfectly licit.

On a side note, I think most Catholics really should attend a Purim celebration sometime. It’s simply a telling and celebration of the Book of Ester, which is part of our Scripture anyway, and it’s a great way to celebrate God’s honoring of the Covenants. The method of celebrating this holiday seems to have grown to its current practice after the time of the Jewish-Christian split, but it really is a good time and not contrary to our beliefs in any way. We have Mardi Gras, but that always has more of a “Saturday we party, Sunday we pray,” feel to it that I don’t like. At the very least I think we could “take a page from the Megillah” and mix some real piety into Mardi Gras parties. Maybe that would help curb some of the more sinful patterns people fall into on that day.

SSV: How was your Purim, buddy? :tiphat:
 
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Marysgirl:
By the way Scott, that was a rude thing to say.
How so? Again, another declaration with nothing to support it, as if merely having an opinion makes it valid. There is nothing rude about pointing out shortcomings in one’s argument. If you really thought it rude, report me to the mod.

Scott
 
Marysgirl,

The thing is this, you personally dislike drinking. But your personal opinion is not required to be reflected in church functions. You can certainly voice your opinion and try to get things changed at your church. But before you do, you may wish to study the history of prohibition.

Drinking alcohol is not inherently wrong or evil. Frankly, I have never met a Catholic Christian who objected to alcohol being served at a church function. After all, at the highest church “function”, Mass, wine is present.

God Bless,

Maria
 
Hi all!
Ghosty, you asked:
SSV: How was your Purim, buddy? :tiphat:
Pretty good, thanks. I didn’t imbibe very much, though. I sipped a little brandy Thursday night & enjoyed some nice white wine with our festive Friday night Shabbat/Sabbath dinner (which was technically after Purim was over outside Jerusalem).

The hamantaschen I baked came out very nice. This year’s fillings were: blueberry, poppy seed, orange marmalade & carob/nut spread. Mmmmm!!!

Da Boyz got a good bit of loot (i.e. candies, chocolate, etc.) & scarfed it up pretty quick.

Howz by you?

Be well!

ssv 👋
 
Howz by you?
Very nice. My friend and I went to a secular (Reform) Purim celebration which was rather tame, and then walked down the street to the Chassidic habat (spelling?) for their celebration, and it was much more festive and joyous. I drank below my usual limit, but with all the dancing and the fact that I was coming down with a minor bug of some sort I ended up feeling a bit under the weather anyway.

It was a wonderful time, however. The reader (not certain if he was a rabbi or not) at the Chassidic Purim was amazing, and was delighted and a bit suprised that a Catholic would be interested in faithfully celebrating Purim. When I told him that Ester is a part of our Scripture as well, and holds the same meaning for us, and that I was there to celebrate the survival of the Tree of Life, he dragged me to the dance floor.

It was a very spiritual night for me, falling on the Catholic night of Passover, and a lot of fun to boot. I ate “brownie-filled hamentashen” for the first time, which I didn’t even know existed, but it was rather good. Still doesn’t hold a candle to poppy-seed though 😃
 
No one believed in this " grape juice theology " until a guy by the name of Welch developed a method of preserving grape juice in the 1800’s. I think he was a Methodist. Wine was part of the Jewish culture. Jesus was a Jew.

Grape juice history:


co.cumberland.nj.us/fact…ic+City&fldID=5

 
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