Allah

[hasantas]

Hasantas,

How could early Christians err? They were much closer to the event of Christ than us, 2000 years ago.

Why would Christianity then begin again far from the event in a very different culture and very different mode of interpretation, particularly as there were no apostles who were actual witnesses of Christ.

St. Peter said in his second epistle, who was the primary or head apostle chosen by Christ…said we are to not follow personal interpretation but listen only to them…not just one witness, but 12 apostles who were the chosen witnesses by His Majesty, Our Lord.

To say we Christians do not understand our Christianity with 2000 years of consistency of faith…a marvel itself of the Holy Spirit with the same authority and structure based on the apostles and bishops and then to think Muhammed, 600 years later who contradicted not only Scripture and the 10 commandments,

Then it is easy for us to make the same comment that Islam doesn’t understand itself right. But we Christians and Jews can make the same sweeping claim.

It is easy, so easy to just say Islam understands and interprets Christianity as it is for us to say the same, we understand Islam better than Muslims.

Christianity was interpreted and named over again in Rome and from that point the discussions started. Finally the nicaea council was hold. The problem is not with apostles but sometimes about 100 or 150 years after apostles. And the conclusion was drawed in Nicaea was not Bible based but it was interpretations of people in council. It said “we believe” but it is not said “it is written in Bible” or “as that apostle affirm” or such thing like that. It is a text out of scripture which had been hold above scripture later. Some Christians state that Church come first! Church was used to be influenced of Goverment or goverment was used to be imposed by Church.

case of Islam? Qur’an had been written by prophet and yet in issues which was not wirtten under authority of prophet there had been many problems such as Hadiths.

Jesus(pbuh) did not establish a community of believers which could stay and live together as freely. They were always under pressure. It was diffucult to hold all beliefs or writings of believers together. So there have been more than one scripture texts and writtings. It is very difficult to distinct between wright and wrong.

 

[MartinJordan]

Christianity was interpreted and named over again in Rome and from that point the discussions started. Finally the nicaea council was hold.

From where did you get this information about Nicea?

From the Quran? Hadith, Islamic teaching? If neither of these then it’s from outside of Islam.

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

Perhaps it’s not about “joining us” like its a football team we swear allegiance to.

We are talking about the oneness of God, dear 808.

If it was about joining us or joining them, then Pope Saint John Paul XXIII would not have stated that if he was Muslim, he would have stayed a good Muslim, faithful to his religion.

This is about working with the Holy Spirit within the sacred traditions of ones Faith.

Lumen gentium talks about the Holy Spirit being very much active within Islam.

.

Where does it say the Holy Spirit is much active within Islam?

What is does say is :

The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are** honored by the name of Christian,** but who do not however profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter.[14] **For there are many who hold sacred scripture in honor as a rule of faith and of life, who have a sincere religious zeal, who lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and the Saviour,**15] who are **sealed by baptism which unites them to Christ, **and who indeed recognize and receive other Sacraments in their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities.

Many of them possess the episcopate, celebrate the holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion of the Virgin Mother of God.[16] There is furthermore a sharing in prayer and spiritual benefits;** these Christians are indeed in some real way joined to us in the Holy Spirit for, by his gifts and graces, his sanctifying power is also active in them and he has strengthened some of them even to the shedding of their blood**. And so the Spirit stirs up desires and actions in all of Christ’s disciples in order that all may be peaceably united, as Christ ordained, in one flock under one shepherd.[17] Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may be achieved, and she exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the Church.

That’s the Holy Spirit for Christians. Next is :

Cont’d

 

[MartinJordan]

Cont’d

Finally, those **who have not yet received the Gospel **are related to the People of God in various ways.[18] *There is, first, that people to which the covenants and promises were made, and from which Christ was born according to the flesh (cf. Rom. 9 :4-5): in view of the divine choice, they are a people most dear for the sake of the fathers, for the gifts of God are without repentance **(cf. Rom. 11:29-29). (People of Israel).

But the* plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems*: these profess to hold* the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one,* merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

Thus, unless believers are united with Jesus, the Holy Spirit is not Muslims belief.

Lastly, please notice no mention of Islam, nor Mohammed except what Muslims believe, and profess. Muslims don’t profess the Holy Spirit.

MJ

 

[hasantas]

From where did you get this information about Nicea?

From the Quran? Hadith, Islamic teaching? If neither of these then it’s from outside of Islam.

MJ

Does Islam deny history?

 

[Cavaradossi]

Does Islam deny history?

Absolutely. In fact, Islam doesn’t just deny history, but it even denies basic logic. Islam denies the fact that the Qur’an has been edited into its present form. Islam claims that the Qur’an is in perfect Arabic even though it contains grammatical errors and words which have no known meaning in Arabic. It is even said in the Qur’an that the food of the people of the book is halal, even though Christians have been permitted to consume pork since almost the very beginning, according to Acts. The Qur’an claims that Muhammad’s teachings can be confirmed by the scriptures of the people of the book, but then most Muslims assert that the scriptures of the people of the book have been corrupted, and do not accept our scriptures as scripture. How can you confirm the doctrines of Muhammad with our scriptures, if you do not even recognize the authority of our scriptures?

 

[Servant19]

Whichever analogy you wish to use, the practical results may be similar. What’s the end result: mutual acceptance/worship? As far as working with the Holy Spirit within the sacred traditions of one’s Faith, I believe any faithful believer already does that in his/her own way and to the current ability they have. The question Jews, Christians, and Muslims are faced with is how do we reconcile our separate faith when they appear different and, in some cases, contradictory? Finding commonality in our faiths still leaves us with differences. If not, then we must all abandon our faiths to start a new one or become pantheists or pagans.

You make some very good points

Thoughts worthy of reflection.

The answer is out there. I hope you are willing to search for the answers to interfaith unity.



.

 

[Servant19]

Cont’d

Finally, those **who have not yet received the Gospel **are related to the People of God in various ways.[18] *There is, first, that people to which the covenants and promises were made, and from which Christ was born according to the flesh (cf. Rom. 9 :4-5): in view of the divine choice, they are a people most dear for the sake of the fathers, for the gifts of God are without repentance **(cf. Rom. 11:29-29). (People of Israel).

But the* plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems*: these profess to hold* the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one,* merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

Thus, unless believers are united with Jesus, the Holy Spirit is not Muslims belief.

Lastly, please notice no mention of Islam, nor Mohammed except what Muslims believe, and profess. Muslims don’t profess the Holy Spirit.

MJ

My apologies, it was Nostra Aetate

.

 

[KathleenGee]

Hasantas,

Thanks for responding but your perception is not based on fact.

Christianity began in Jerusalem. The apostles then went out; St. Mark established the Church in Egypt. St. Peter established the Church in Antioch. He and St. Paul were both led by the Holy Spirit to go to Rome. And then Constantinople rose from the apostolic ‘ashes’ where Christianity was almost destroyed by the Roman emperor who moved his headquarters from Rome to Asia Minor to escape barbarian invasions.

The worst persecutions of Christians happened in 302 AD by Diocletian. Emperor Constantine fought the Roman Emperor. He helped rebuild many churches, and assisted in choosing priests who would best serve as leaders becoming bishops.

So there are 5 patriarchs: Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch, Rome, Constantinople up to this very day.

The Church does not operate by Rome but in communion of all patriarchs and bishops throughout these 5 sees.

We have the Early Church Fathers who expounded and taught in great depth the Sacred Scriptures and many of them did not live in Rome.

Again, what is happening is that you have been taught false things.

My problem with Islam is that it invalidates historical realities because it wants power over all. This goes against authentic religion.

 

[808Catholic]

Christianity was interpreted and named over again in Rome and from that point the discussions started. Finally the nicaea council was hold. The problem is not with apostles but sometimes about 100 or 150 years after apostles. And the conclusion was drawed in Nicaea was not Bible based but it was interpretations of people in council. It said “we believe” but it is not said “it is written in Bible” or “as that apostle affirm” or such thing like that. It is a text out of scripture which had been hold above scripture later. Some Christians state that Church come first! Church was used to be influenced of Goverment or goverment was used to be imposed by Church.

case of Islam? Qur’an had been written by prophet and yet in issues which was not wirtten under authority of prophet there had been many problems such as Hadiths.

Jesus(pbuh) did not establish a community of believers which could stay and live together as freely. They were always under pressure. It was diffucult to hold all beliefs or writings of believers together. So there have been more than one scripture texts and writtings. It is very difficult to distinct between wright and wrong.

Yet Koran scholars agree that Mohammed did not record the Koran with his own hand but used several people to write it down for him. The Haddith is also not the product of Mohammed though I’m not sure Muslims believe it is God inspired or not.

Your assessment of the early Christian church has no historical basis. There were many communities that converted to Christianity and joined the church DESPITE pressure to remain Jewish or pagan. Even today, we see Christianity flourishing where it logically should not; that’s the power of God’s truth.

God bless you.

 

[KathleenGee]

Hasantas,

Your position demonstrations your own lack of freedom to find out the actual history of Christianity, where it was established, and how it developed. Persecution and martyrdom on our side…meaning we are the ones persecuted and martyred, not the other way around, somehow cause our numbers to increase.

Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Asia Minor were all teeming Christian populations who were greatly diminished by the militant onslaught of Islam, such action itself contradicting Christ as True Prophet and the 10 commandments.

As I understand it, if you are caught with an authentic Christian bible that is not distorted by Muslim teachers, or have a Catholic catechism where every doctrine has multiple footnotes to Sacred Scripture, the apostles, early church fathers, councils – you would be killed.

Or if you left Islam for Christianity, depending upon where you live, you would be killed.

 

[808Catholic]

Hasantas,

Your position demonstrations your own lack of freedom to find out the actual history of Christianity, where it was established, and how it developed. Persecution and martyrdom on our side…meaning we are the ones persecuted and martyred, not the other way around, somehow cause our numbers to increase.

Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Asia Minor were all teeming Christian populations who were greatly diminished by the militant onslaught of Islam, such action itself contradicting Christ as True Prophet and the 10 commandments.

As I understand it, if you are caught with an authentic Christian bible that is not distorted by Muslim teachers, or have a Catholic catechism where every doctrine has multiple footnotes to Sacred Scripture, the apostles, early church fathers, councils – you would be killed.

Or if you left Islam for Christianity, depending upon where you live, you would be killed.

 

[TonyBS]

Hasantas,

Your position demonstrations your own lack of freedom to find out the actual history of Christianity, where it was established, and how it developed. Persecution and martyrdom on our side…meaning we are the ones persecuted and martyred, not the other way around, somehow cause our numbers to increase.

Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Asia Minor were all teeming Christian populations who were greatly diminished by the militant onslaught of Islam, such action itself contradicting Christ as True Prophet and the 10 commandments.

As I understand it, if you are caught with an authentic Christian bible that is not distorted by Muslim teachers, or have a Catholic catechism where every doctrine has multiple footnotes to Sacred Scripture, the apostles, early church fathers, councils – you would be killed.

Or if you left Islam for Christianity, depending upon where you live, you would be killed.

The way of Allah never changes.

What can one say to this - Religion has always increased because of the early Martyrs of the Cause

Jewish, Christian, Muslim and on a Massive scale the Babi and then Baha’i Faith all were fed on the Blood of Their prophets and then their Martyrs

Wars in the Holy Land were raging by Christians and Zoroastrians before the coming of Muhammad, then the Crusades happened. This was a sign of the times, war was a reality and God had a plan to unfold so war would be no more. Millions most likely were Martyred on both sides, all this in the Name of God. It is God who knows who gave their lives in Full Faith.

What this more demonstrates is, is lack of Justice of testing other Faiths with the same Proofs they use for their own.

You do not think the Muslim Faith grew from the Blood shed by its Followers?

Do you not think the Baha’i Faith now Grows because of the same reasons?

Then it can not be used as a Proof for ones own religion, would that not be a fair statement

If the Blood had not been shed of the Bab’is the whole of Persia would have accepted the Bab, the Faith grew very very rapidly and when the rulers thought their power was at risk, well Man as always had other ideas, rings a bell…

Regards Tony

 

[castle_hunter]

The way of Allah never changes.

What can one say to this - Religion has always increased because of the early Martyrs of the Cause

Jewish, Christian, Muslim and on a Massive scale the Babi and then Baha’i Faith all were fed on the Blood of Their prophets and then their Martyrs

Wars in the Holy Land were raging by Christians and Zoroastrians before the coming of Muhammad, then the Crusades happened. This was a sign of the times, war was a reality and God had a plan to unfold so war would be no more. Millions most likely were Martyred on both sides, all this in the Name of God. It is God who knows who gave their lives in Full Faith.

What this more demonstrates is, is lack of Justice of testing other Faiths with the same Proofs they use for their own.

You do not think the Muslim Faith grew from the Blood shed by its Followers?

Do you not think the Baha’i Faith now Grows because of the same reasons?

Then it can not be used as a Proof for ones own religion, would that not be a fair statement

If the Blood had not been shed of the Bab’is the whole of Persia would have accepted the Bab, the Faith grew very very rapidly and when the rulers thought their power was at risk, well Man as always had other ideas, rings a bell…

Regards Tony

The Muslim faith grew from the blood shed of its enemies not its so-called martyrs.

 

[TonyBS]

The Muslim faith grew from the blood shed of its enemies not its so-called martyrs.

Then little do you know of the Birth of the Muslim Faith

Study is required

May Allah guide you as we all need guidance

Regards Tony

 

[castle_hunter]

Then little do you know of the Birth of the Muslim Faith

Study is required

May Allah guide you as we all need guidance

Regards Tony

No. Much I know.
I fear you either know little or fool yourself into believing what is convenient.
much like Mormons.
Keep studying my young paduan. But not with Baha’i texts.

 

[MartinJordan]

My apologies, it was Nostra Aetate

.

That’s ok.

But I don’t see anything about Muslims and the Holy Spirit.

MJ

 

[KathleenGee]

Where were Christians waging war in Jerusalem prior to the birth of Islam???

The Jewish Christians fled during the Diaspora. The Hebrew Christians who remained fell into obscurity while the Gentile conversions flourished and expanded elsewhere outside of Israel.

Christianity did not go about slaughtering killing enslaving, raping, having concubines or polygamous marriages that bring subsequent poverty.

You have to go back to the first 600 years of Christianity.

Please anyone show me where Christians were going about slaughtering, enslaving in that time period. I know there were zealous Christians in Rome and elsewhere that knocked down pagan statues and when they faced death, they thought they would become martyrs, when in fact the Church looked upon their civil disobedience as suicide.

 

[TonyBS]

Where were Christians waging war in Jerusalem prior to the birth of Islam???

The Jewish Christians fled during the Diaspora. The Hebrew Christians who remained fell into obscurity while the Gentile conversions flourished and expanded elsewhere outside of Israel.

Christianity did not go about slaughtering killing enslaving, raping, having concubines or polygamous marriages that bring subsequent poverty.

You have to go back to the first 600 years of Christianity.

Please anyone show me where Christians were going about slaughtering, enslaving in that time period. I know there were zealous Christians in Rome and elsewhere that knocked down pagan statues and when they faced death, they thought they would become martyrs, when in fact the Church looked upon their civil disobedience as suicide.

From this link I was reading the Following - strangeside.com/holy-land-muslim-conquest/

"In 602, the two world powers were the Christian Byzantine Empire and the Zoroastrian (fire worshipping) Persian Empire. That year, Khosroe II of Persiaattacked the Byzantine Empire, capturing huge swathes of their territories including the Middle East, Eastern Europe, and Egypt. Eretz Yisroel was also included in their bag.

Some historians define the Christian counteroffensive against Persia as the first Crusade. To finance the war, they stripped metal and bronze from monuments and even from the Hagia Sophia, the most important church of the capital (nowadays a prominent mosque and Istanbul’s most famous landmark). Towards the end of the campaign, his armies even surged up to the walls of Constantinople, capital of the Byzantine kingdom. In the end, Khosroe was thwarted by the Byzantine leader Heraclius, one of the greatest military geniuses of history. Although both empires survived intact, years of war left them too weak to withstand the Muslim juggernaut that rolled in afterwards.

They were hard times people lived in that is for sure, but the times are also hard righ here right now!

I think we could all agree that it is, Time to stop war and learn Peace

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

That’s ok.

But I don’t see anything about Muslims and the Holy Spirit.

MJ

HI Martin,

I got this idea while reading the following extract:

"…You speak of many religions. Instead I will attempt to show the common fundamental element and the common root of these religions.

The Council defined the relationship of the Church to non-Christian religions in a specific document that begins with the words “Nostra aetate” (“In our time”). It is a concise and yet very rich document that authentically hands on the Tradition, faithful to the thought of the earliest Fathers of the Church.

From the beginning, Christian Revelation has viewed the spiritual history of man as including, in some way, all religions, thereby demonstrating the unity of humankind with regard to the eternal and ultimate destiny of man. The Council document speaks of this unity and links it with the current trend to bring humanity closer together through the resources available to our civilization. The Church sees the promotion of this unity as one of its duties: “There is only one community and it consists of all peoples. They have only one origin, since God inhabited the entire earth with the whole human race. And they have one ultimate destiny, God, whose providence, goodness, and plan for salvation extend to all. . . . Men turn to various religions to solve mysteries of the human condition, which today, as in earlier times, burden people’s hearts: the nature of man; the meaning and purpose of life; good and evil; the origin and purpose of suffering; the way to true happiness; death…and finally, the ultimate ineffable mystery which is the origin and destiny of our existence. From ancient times up to today all the various peoples have shared and continue to share an awareness of that enigmatic power that is present throughout the course of things and throughout the events of human life, and, in which, at times, even the Supreme Divinity or the Father is recognizable. This awareness and recognition imbue life with an intimate religious sense. Religions that are tied up with cultural progress strive to solve these issues with more refined concepts and a more precise language” (Nostra Aetate 1-2).

…

The words of the Council recall the conviction, long rooted in the Tradition, of the existence of the so-called semina Verbi (seeds of the Word), present in all religions. In the light of this conviction, the Church seeks to identify the semina Verbi present in the great traditions of the Far East, in order to trace a common path against the backdrop of the needs of the contemporary world. We can affirm that here the position of the Council is inspired by a truly universal concern…

In another passage the Council says that the Holy Spirit works effectively even outside the visible structure of the Church (cf. Lumen Gentium 13), making use of these very semina Verbi, that constitute a kind of common soteriological root present in all religions.

I have been convinced of this on numerous occasions, both while visiting the countries of the Far East and while meeting representatives of those religions, especially during the historic meeting at Assisi, where we found ourselves gathered together praying for peace.

Thus, instead of marveling at the fact that Providence allows such a great variety of religions, we should be amazed at the number of common elements found within them.…”

• Pope Saint John Paul II (1994), Crossing the Threshold of Hope

Hope that helps

.