G
gregtr
Guest
I understand your sensibilities **ivory **, but it is somewhat modernist to try to make religious experiences into religious faith
- Status
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
As long as it is not us who degrade the Mass. Walking out of an otherwise valid Mass just because of our preferences would be degrading it. Martha or Mary? Do we rather bother with the preparation, or be with the Lord?
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
A perfect and loving God is not offended. God did not take favor with Cain’s offering, but that doesn’t mean He was offended. God is all-powerful and perfect, what does He need from us really? His interest out of being love Himself, is that we who are the product of His love be reconciled to Him. What pleases God is not our actions itself, but rather our hearts brought closer to Him by our action.But of course He can be! What planet do you live on?
We are asked to do penance for the sins comitted against God all the time. Why is that? Obviously He is greatly offended by things people do.
I agree that the priest will answer for the way he celebrtates mass but we are not obliged to accept questionable practices when we know *for a fact *that the mass should not be celebrated in certain ways. That is false humility.
N
NewsTheMan
Guest
It’s not just about preferences at all.
Anyway, are you saying that all that matters is validity? So… if a priest turns bad and offers black Masses, we should attend because at least we get to be with the Lord? What matters is not just validity of sacrament of the Eucharist. Some Anglican priests in certain lines dating back to valid orders would have a valid Eucharist. Should we attend Anglican services? We can, and should, only attend Catholic Masses. To be a Catholic Mass it must conform, then, to the Catholic standard of celebrating the Sacrifice of the Mass - which requires certain things, and forbids other things.
N
NewsTheMan
Guest
Saying that something offends God doesn’t mean that God on His Heavenly throne scoffs and makes a face and gets irritated. It is shorthand for saying that we have made an offense against God - His will and His law. That is how we offend God. It’s not that God needs anything from us. Of course not. We need Him. Our offenses against God - that is, when we offend Him - cut us off from that relationship.
It is strange that you move away from making God like us by anthropomorphizing Him… but then say talk about “pleasing God”. Of course, God cannot be ‘pleased’, since he lacks nothing. If we understand it in the same way that we understand offending Him, pleasing God involves, as you say, turning ourselves away from sin and towards Him. Our hearts conform to His will.
I may be wrong, but this then gives us a picture where good actions can still please good, but if our hearts are not in the right place we merit nothing. So in giving to the poor if I do it to gain popularity then of course my heart has not been turned towards God and so I do not please Him, but of course the action itself of giving to the poor is a good action (and goodness only comes from God) and is thus an action that pleases God in as much as all good things are things which conform to His will. Similarly, an action done with sincerity but that is not a good action is less pleasing to God. For example, Protestant worship. Protestant worship is not pleasing to God, only the sacrifice of the Mass in Catholic worship is pleasing to God. Though Protestants may be sincere, they still gain no merit for their worship because their worship lacks the sacrificial nature of our worship. Perhaps Protestants are a controversial example and I may be wrong, but this is my understanding. I am up for correction and a good discussion on the points made in this paragraph.
M
MartyrForJesus
Guest
If we can’t offend God, then howcome the Baltimore Catechism states ‘contrition’ as:
Bold is mine.
God Bless.
C
Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
C
Convert91
Guest
Never been to a ‘Catholic Church’ like that and sure hope I never will.
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
This I agree with. But again, whether the priest it doing it to intentionally insult God (though God is not insulted, He knows the intentions of the priest) is not for us to judge. The fact of the matter is, many priests commit abuse not because they want to trivialize the faith, but they see so many people falling off the faith that they want to do what they can to keep people interested. Of course, the end doesn’t justify the means for sure. But we can’t blame the priest for being ill intentioned.
I’d rather not say that Protestant worship is not pleasing. How do we know for sure? I agree it can’t compare with a proper Eucharistic Liturgy, but how do we know its not (and “not” means its completely not pleasing)? Jesus said not everyone who would call him, “Lord, Lord” will be saved. But He did not say he will ignore them.
Actions by themselves do not carry any value by itself, that is what I have been learning. Even sin is not that straight forward. We know that intention is very important in weighing an action as sin. The simplest actions we do, if geared towards God, is pleasing to God. Didn’t Jesus say this when he praised the poor widower, who gave a small amount to the temple but it was all that she could give? What we do is judged not by the value as seen by other people, but the value as seen by God. When we give all to God, it doesn’t matter what other people say about what we do but rather God who is the judge of all (including each and every action we take).
In relation to the topic, no matter what the priest does, if we ourselves is there present for Christ who is present for us, then there is nothing the priest can take away from what we offer to Christ, which is all that we have, all that we are. Even though it is not worth much in the eyes of other people.
M
Maybeasister
Guest
Personally, I wouldn’t judge a Mass on the music, the mic volume, or a bad homily. You go to Mass to celebrate the Holy Eucharist. While these things accompany the mystery of the changing of the bread and wine to the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ, I think your main focus should be the mystery. Was it glorious? I hope you get what I’m trying to say.
N
NewsTheMan
Guest
Sure, I agree and think that most if not all priests don’t intentionally want to insult God. However, we can still objectively say that it is a liturgical abuse. Since liturgy is doctrine we must then say that objectively what he is doing is wrong. Perhaps not sinful (let God judge that) but we can say it is wrong and bad. And we can say with certainty that at Mass we should not expect anything wrong or bad. In fact, at Mass we must expect and demand the absolute best for God.
I agree. Many priests, God bless them, are well intentioned. But it’s not good enough. Why? Well, because they destroy the faith in their dissent, and it requires a certain arrogance to allow liturgical abuse and even participate in it because you believe you know better than the Church as to what kind of liturgy will please God and save souls. Remember, the Mass is about God, not us. We cannot blame the priest all the time for his intentions because they may be good. However, we can still say to him"this is wrong and it doesn’t please God - it destroys the faith and defies authority".
They may not want to trivialize the faith, but they end up doing so by inserting novelties. And in that sense we can objectively proclaim that yes - a Mass that is rife with abuse is not pleasing to God, it is objectively lower in standard because somewhere along the way human intentions interfered with the Divine Will that is passed down to us by Tradition. Somebody who knows what a properly celebrated Mass looks like thus has a duty to correct the abuses. In the meantime, I think that any abuse which is bad enough to cause scandal and pain in the heart of the observer may justify that person leaving Mass. It’s not simply just about “well let me suffer here in silence while objectively it looks like they spit in our Lords face, at the end of the day it is a valid Mass”. No no no. Precisely because it is a valid Mass that one is even more offended and scandalized!
If we admit that Protestant worship is pleasing to God, we lose our faith. If Protestant worship (not Protestant souls mind you, just their worship) is pleasing to God there is no need for the Mass or for Catholicism. I am not saying individual Protestants worshipping God displeases God. Of course he is pleased when people try to reach out to him (unless that individual protestant is an ex-Catholic or what have you and then it is a bit different). Protestant Worship however, is displeasing. Does that make sense - am I making the distinction clear enough?
To be blunt, this is not correct. In judging shame, guilt and blameworthiness then the action by itself takes a secondary role to the intentions.That is true. However, actions by themselves certainly do have value. Of course they do! This is pure Catholic theology. Intrinsic evils, and intrinsic goods. Abortion is intrinsically evil - no matter what the intention is. Sin is straightforward as it comes. Certain actions are to be completely avoided full stop. What is not so straightforward (for us anyway) is judging the soul and it’s intention with regards to that action. So, we can say for certain that someone killing someone is wrong and evil.However, if someone did it by accident, unknowingly, negligently, purposefully… those all factor in when considering that persons blameworthiness. Make sense?
Continued…
N
NewsTheMan
Guest
I agree. This is still not an excuse for abusive Masses. In the widower example, she gave more than she had which is what God praises her for. She didn’t give just until it made her happy. She gave until it hurt her. That is the price of love. That is what Jesus praised, and what He was trying to show everybody was good. All too often, liturgical abuse is not borne out of a the sacrificial love that is required. It is borne out of arrogance, emotion, negligence, boredom. That is not what Jesus wants, it displeases Him.
Yes and no. If you have Catholic sensibilities if the Priest, say, purposefully spat on the Eucharist, you would feel the priest has defiled something. You can objectively say that that action was not pleasing to God, and if you stayed in that Church as that action happened you would be consenting to it. I guess it’s hard to get the point across here. God doesn’t want us to be pansies idly sitting by saying “well… at least it is valid”. He wants us to give Him our best, give until it hurts.
C
Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
I think the problem is that most Catholics don’t realise there is an objective criteria to judge the quality of liturgy and that mass should be celebrated according to some rules. I know too many Catholics who honestly believe that it is up to the priest to decide on the style of celebrating mass, and thus they follow, not knowing any better. I believe that most would give their best, until it hurts, as you put it, if they knew how. But when people are brought up with mediocre liturgy that contains abuses, no wonder they don’t know any better.
The internet, because it makes information available, has caused a revoluition in thinking among lay people, that perhaps we can have something different and be critical of what goes on. Discovering tradition is a part of that. Also, at the EF mass, we lay people give up power. We have no right to expect that our tastes matter and that we can impose our choices on the way mass will be celebrated. And many poeple don’t like that because their preferences in music and worship are very important to them, and they are not ready to give it up. So many priests make a mistake and try to make people happy. It is a viscious circle so to speak. Priorities are mixed up, and how we feel about something becomes the way we measure whether liturgy is what it should be.
N
NewsTheMan
Guest
Good points. There is an attitude (prevalent on CAF too) that if you so much as talk badly about a Mass that is rife with abuse that you are a judgmental Pharisee know-it-all who wasn’t concentrating on Jesus. That if you aren’t celebrating the irreverence and protestant-inspired worship styles you’re a good-for-nothing judger of souls. Really, though, it makes no sense to say such things. It is funny how people will then say, “well anyway even if you are correct it is just your preference”. Oh really? So it is just my preference that Mass should be celebrated properly? Only mine? And this kind of preference is troubling or foreign to you?
Judging an abusive liturgy is not judging the Eucharist. For some people they seem to think that anything that pertains to the Mass no matter where it comes from should be respected. Which is simply not the case. The Mass shouldn’t be about anybodies taste - it should be about the Holiness, reverence and solemn awe that we owe as a duty to God.
S
Sirach2
Guest
I hope you are speaking “generally” and not in connection with this thread, wherein the OP’s complaint had nothing to do with an abusive mass.
- The priest’s mike was set too loud
- The homily was not inspiring enough
- The hymn selection was one that he disliked
- The musical instrument being a guitar was offensive (but LICIT)
- The guitarist hit a few bad notes (it happens, folks, even on organ)
May I add, too, that it frequently happens that the priest is just as disgruntled with the hymns the music director has chosen, and that he seldom previews or ok’s. Does he get ruffled in the middle of mass and walk out??? I customarily sat in the front near one of my former pastors, and you could see his hair standing up over some of the poor cantors and music choices that the director imposed on the congregation.
Let’s extend some charity in this regard and refrain from judging this particular liturgy as being filled with abuse.
M
MartyrForJesus
Guest
N
NewsTheMan
Guest
Of course. I wasn’t at the Mass so I can’t say, and a loud mic is hardly a complaint at all. Guitars at Mass being licit? Not really in the West since they are secular instruments. At the very least, it’s not clearly licit if it even is. And if it is, it should be a guitar that plays proper music for a Mass - not folk music or what have you.
But yeah, this many pages on I think I am speaking more generally here - thank you for making that clear
I don’t want people to think that I am bringing out the big guns because a homily was dry 
S
Sirach2
Guest
Source? Perhaps so in the EF, but they are perfectly licit in the OF.
N
NewsTheMan
Guest
Sure, this article that was in Adoremus has many documents referenced and is a good summary (the article was written by Dr.Carrol, professor at Princeton and music director at a Carmelite monastery so I am not giving you wild fringe group sources just so you know!)
Note also this interview with Cardinal Arinze (I will quote the relevant part).
Cardinal Arinze:
So, guitars being licit and illicit is a matter of prudential judgment. Since a guitar can form part of a legitimate orchestra of some kind, banning them would be silly. But that’s not what happens at Mass these days.
S
Sirach2
Guest
NewsTheMan,
While I can appreciate the views of Dr. Carrol, this perspective is independent and not one that is supported by Church teaching. It is simply opinion, with which I perceive that you agree.
Going further into your quote from Card. Arinze, that too, is his personal opinion and not one that is supported by Church teaching. I can cherry-pick from his words, as well, to support a different perspective than the words you highlighted.
Card. Arinze:
Understand, please, that I am not promoting the use of guitars at mass, for that is not my preference, either. But can we agree that there occasions when guitar for youth is appropriate, and NOT forbidden by any teaching of our Church?
While I can appreciate the views of Dr. Carrol, this perspective is independent and not one that is supported by Church teaching. It is simply opinion, with which I perceive that you agree.
Going further into your quote from Card. Arinze, that too, is his personal opinion and not one that is supported by Church teaching. I can cherry-pick from his words, as well, to support a different perspective than the words you highlighted.
Card. Arinze:
The culture of youth and a liturgy geared to them is not going to be filled with gregorian chant, but will most likely have guitars.
Understand, please, that I am not promoting the use of guitars at mass, for that is not my preference, either. But can we agree that there occasions when guitar for youth is appropriate, and NOT forbidden by any teaching of our Church?- Status