Altar Girls

[Brendan]

May I dare to presume that the “best case” for you was consistent with the oppinion you came with?
I found the other posters more logical and consistent. They are in line with what I have observed, what the Church practices (girls as servers) and, well, simply a more positive view of women’s role and potential in the church.

You say no one has referred to the Bible. I did… and its the most weighty argument for me to this day: that at the greatest of all Alters of the Highpriest, we know that 3 women and 1 man were present… I am talking of the Cross.

Correct, they were at the foot of the cross worshiping Christ in His Sacrifice. That is what all the faithful do from the pews. It makes no claim to altar service though.

To serve at the alter - not as priests mind you - is a privilege which Christ didn’t seem to hinder women from. He was the Alter and the Priest and He was in more intimate union with Mary as she gave birth to Him… so we can safely say that a new Covenant has started, where pettiness and favouritism shouldn’t be the norm.
Christ was tended to by women all the time in His ministry.

There is no correlation between being present at the Cross and doing anything more that worship. The closest corrolation would actually be the Last Supper, where only men were present, He even excluded His own Mother from that Mystery. Was Christ being petty at that moment?

Christ was the one who established the Old Covenent in the first place. Did He err in doing so?

 

[PaulinVA]

One thing that has really bothers me is how female altar servers came about. It was not until 1994 (imagine, 1994!) that the Church definitively said that females may serve Mass based on Canon 230. Yet females had already been serving Mass for at least 20 years prior to that (depending on the location) without approval from the Holy See.

I’m not going to try to second guess the Holy See but it makes my skin crawl to think the Church acquiesced to a blatant liturgical abuse because the Virginia Slims crowd just had to have their way. I also detest the fabricated excuse that there wouldn’t be enough servers if females could not serve. That’s nothing more than odious blarney.

I just shake my head at posts like this.

 

[PaulinVA]

Priests perform their ministry on the altar. Nuns do not.

If one is to emulate the role of sisters there are three options, each corresponding to the three primary charisms.

1. For the Contemplative - spending time in Adoration
2. For the Teaching Orders - operate as a teachers aide in Catechism classes
3. For the Mendicant Orders - assist with charitable projects in your community.

Those are what tend to drive vocations for women and emulate the service of women religious more so than altar service.

As I said downthread, I really don’t think serving at Mass gives a young man any idea what being a priest is like. If you want to do that, these are the unique things that he should be shown.

1. Working on all holy days (Christmas and Easter) away from parents and other family.
2. Counseling people who want to be married, divorced, come back to the Church, leave the Church, give you a piece of their mind…
3. Comfort people after accidents on the worst days of their lives.
4. Go home every night to be alone with one or two other priests.
5. Know the joy of reconciling someone to the Church through confession.
6. Not making enough money to buy a car so your parents or friends buy it for you.
7. Having the weight of the spiritual lives of your flock on your shoulders.

These are the everyday things. If a man wonders whether he should be a priest, he should look at these, not if he thinks he would like vesting up and saying Mass.

 

[paperwight66]

As I said downthread, I really don’t think serving at Mass gives a young man any idea what being a priest is like. If you want to do that, these are the unique things that he should be shown.
…
These are the everyday things. If a man wonders whether he should be a priest, he should look at these, not if he thinks he would like vesting up and saying Mass.

I agree. I would also add that if being at the centre of the action, wearing vestments, is what motivates a man to be a priest, heaven help us.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

One thing that has really bothers me is how female altar servers came about. It was not until 1994 (imagine, 1994!) that the Church definitively said that females may serve Mass based on Canon 230. Yet females had already been serving Mass for at least 20 years prior to that (depending on the location) without approval from the Holy See.

They didn’t need approval from the Holy See. The 1983 code already gave permission. The 1994 letter from the Holy See was in response to a question about whether female altar servers were allowed under the canons. The answers was that, yes, the canons allow for it. The Holy See was actually upholding the interpretation of bishops who allowed female atar servers.

I’m not going to try to second guess the Holy See but it makes my skin crawl to think the Church acquiesced to a blatant liturgical abuse because the Virginia Slims crowd just had to have their way.

It also makes my skin crawl when people distort the facts in order to attack something they don’t like.

 

[TheMc]

You say no one has referred to the Bible. I did… and its the most weighty argument for me to this day: that at the greatest of all Alters of the Highpriest, we know that 3 women and 1 man were present… I am talking of the Cross.
To serve at the alter - not as priests mind you - is a privilege which Christ didn’t seem to hinder women from. He was the Alter and the Priest and He was in more intimate union with Mary as she gave birth to Him… so we can safely say that a new Covenant has started, where pettiness and favouritism shouldn’t be the norm.
Christ was tended to by women all the time in His ministry.

Yes, this is true. Women (and men) may still always come to Mass and worship, just like the 3 women and one man that were at the foot of the cross. They were there worshiping, just like people in the pews (should) do today.

But where are you seeing the connection to serving Mass? They were simply there worshiping,

 

[TheMc]

I agree. I would also add that if being at the centre of the action, wearing vestments, is what motivates a man to be a priest, heaven help us.

The priest is not the center of action. If he is, there is a problem.

On the flip side though, the Mass is the highest and most important thing a priest can ever do. He lives to celebrate Mass. Yes, he does other things too, not the least of which is forgiving our sins, but if he had to pick one thing, it would be celebrating Mass.

 

[Spelling]

They didn’t need approval from the Holy See. The 1983 code already gave permission. The 1994 letter from the Holy See was in response to a question about whether female altar servers were allowed under the canons. The answers was that, yes, the canons allow for it. The Holy See was actually upholding the interpretation of bishops who allowed female atar servers.

Malarkey.

Allowing females to serve in many dioceses began in the late 1960’s, more than 10 years before the new code was released. They were serving in my parish in 1971. Once the code was released it wasn’t clear by a long shot (particularly given the long history of this matter) that females were allowed to serve. It’s very clear that such a controversial and potentially incendiary matter would not be left in such a nebulous state. It wasn’t until 1994 that the Holy See responded definitively. Just imagine if it had said “no” in 1994. What a sad joke. LOL!!

 

[GraceDK]

Yes, this is true. Women (and men) may still always come to Mass and worship, just like the 3 women and one man that were at the foot of the cross. They were there worshiping, just like people in the pews (should) do today.

But where are you seeing the connection to serving Mass? They were simply there worshiping,

Firstly lets remember its really the Spirit of Christ we should be seeking when we look at questions like these… What would Jesus do is the question?

We all worship at the Mass. Including the priests and the alter servants of both sexes. The Holy Spirit is the Main Agent. All others are worshippers and intercessors.

I hope you do admit that the Cross was the Greatest High Alter and that the presense of the women there, serving Jesus through their presense, comfort and worship was very fitting even if you wish to follow your taste/ theory of fostering priestly vocations through saying no to girl servers…

I don’t think we will come to agree, so let’s agree to disagree agreably…
Thank you for the discussion.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Allowing females to serve in many dioceses began in the late 1960’s, more than 10 years before the new code was released. They were serving in my parish in 1971.

That was the exception than the rule.

Once the code was released it wasn’t clear by a long shot (particularly given the long history of this matter) that females were allowed to serve.

It was clear in the plain wording of the canon. The issue was that some simply refused to believe it.

It’s very clear that such a controversial and potentially incendiary matter would not be left in such a nebulous state.

Actually that’s exactly how the Church often works. And regardless of where someone stands on the matter, the issue has hardly been “incendiary.”

It wasn’t until 1994 that the Holy See responded definitively. Just imagine if it had said “no” in 1994. What a sad joke. LOL!!

The Holy See faced two choices: say yes or rewrite the canon.

If you read the 1994 response it’s very clear that the Holy See is simply interpreting the plain wording of the canon. Great emphesis is placed on what the canon does and does not say.

 

[GraceDK]

Correct, they were at the foot of the cross worshiping Christ in His Sacrifice. That is what all the faithful do from the pews. It makes no claim to altar service though.

There is no correlation between being present at the Cross and doing anything more that worship. The closest corrolation would actually be the Last Supper, where only men were present, He even excluded His own Mother from that Mystery. Was Christ being petty at that moment?

Christ was the one who established the Old Covenent in the first place. Did He err in doing so?

¨

It seems you cannot accept the Church’s ruling in this question. Why is that?
Jesus is the head of the Church and the Church has said that girls can be - no not priests - but alter servers…
I applaud that and think its a good development of wisdom and charity.

 

[Brendan]

¨

It seems you cannot accept the Church’s ruling in this question. Why is that?
Jesus is the head of the Church and the Church has said that girls can be - no not priests - but alter servers…
I applaud that and think its a good development of wisdom and charity.

I fully accept the Church’s ruling on the matter.

Girls are permitted to serve if the bishop of the diocese, the pastor of the parish and the celebrating priest each choose to allow it.

Have I said anything otherwise in any of my posts?

Here is the text from the Vatican

In accord with the above cited instructions of the Holy See such an authorization may not, in any way, exclude men or, in particular, boys from service at the altar, nor require that priests of the diocese would make use of female altar servers, since “it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar” (Circular Letter to the Presidents of Episcopal Conference, March 15, 1994, no. 2). Indeed, the obligation to support groups of altar boys will always remain, not least of all due to the well known assistance that such programs have provided since time immemorial in encouraging future priestly vocations (cf. ibid.)

With respect to whether the practice of women serving at the altar would truly be of pastoral advantage in the local pastoral situation, it is perhaps helpful to recall that the non-ordained faithful do not have a right to service at the altar, rather they are capable of being admitted to such service by the Sacred Pastors (cf. Circular Letter to the Presidents of Episcopal Conferences, March 15, 1994, no. 4, cf. also can 228, §1, Interdicasterial Instruction Esslesiae de mysterio, August 15, 1997, no. 4, see Notitiae 34 [1998] 9-42). Therefore, in the event that Your Excellency found it opportune to authorize service of women at the altar, it would remain important to explain clearly to the faithful the nature of this innovation, lest confusion might be introduced, thereby hampering the development of priestly vocations

Do you agree that all this is a " good development of wisdom and charity", as this is what the Church, of which Jesus Christ is the Head, has stated.

 

[Brendan]

As I said downthread, I really don’t think serving at Mass gives a young man any idea what being a priest is like. .

Service at the altar DOES give a young man an idea of what it is like to be a priest. Does it give a complete picture, no it does not, no more so than spending time in adoration gives a girl a complete picture of what it is like to be a contempletive nun.

But it does impart the idea and would be a great assistance in developing those distinct vocations.

 

[Brendan]

Grace, here is the letter by which the Holy See noted that Canon Law permits the use of girls\women as altar servers

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=5212&CFID=73232389&CFTOKEN=20320745

1. The Holy See respects the decision adopted by certain Bishops for specific local reasons on the basis of the provisions of Canon 230 2. At the same time, however, the Holy See wishes to recall that it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys will always continue.

Since I am in full accord with the Church teaching on this matter, I have, as a statement of belief, no trouble paraphrasing the statement in the first person

I, Brendan, respect the decision adopted by certain Bishops for specific local reasons on the basis of the provisions of Canon 230 2. At the same time, however, I, Brendan, wish to recall that it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys should always continue.

Can you do the same, do you agree with the decision of the Church to the same extent that I do, in that you would be able to make the same statement in the first person?

Can everyone who has participated on this thread? And if not, why not?

 

[TheMc]

It seems you cannot accept the Church’s ruling in this question. Why is that?
Jesus is the head of the Church and the Church has said that girls can be - no not priests - but alter servers.

I am fully accepting the church’s position on this matter. The following things are what I have been saying all along, which is directly from vatican documents (besides the last one, which is a logical conclusion of the rest).

• Boys are not to be excluded from serving
• Any authority from celebrant to pope may ban altar girls throughout his juristriction
• No priest may ever be forced to use female servers
• No one has a right to serve at the altar
• It is “always appropriate” to continue the “noble tradition” of having males serve. No such thing has been said about altar girls.
• It is important that people know that this is not the norm, and that no one has a right to serve at the altar.
• At the holy father’s Masses, which are models for the world, only altar boys are used.
• THE RIGHT TO USE ALTAR GIRLS MAY CHANGE AT ANY TIME
• Summed up: Yes, females can serve, but it is quite obvious that boys are still preferred by the church.

That is all I’ve been saying. Please show me how this is against the “church’s ruling”.

 

[GraceDK]

I am fully accepting the church’s position on this matter. The following things are what I have been saying all along, which is directly from vatican documents (besides the last one, which is a logical conclusion of the rest).

• Boys are not to be excluded from serving
• Any authority from celebrant to pope may ban altar girls throughout his juristriction
• No priest may ever be forced to use female servers
• No one has a right to serve at the altar
• It is “always appropriate” to continue the “noble tradition” of having males serve. No such thing has been said about altar girls.
• It is important that people know that this is not the norm, and that no one has a right to serve at the altar.
• At the holy father’s Masses, which are models for the world, only altar boys are used.
• THE RIGHT TO USE ALTAR GIRLS MAY CHANGE AT ANY TIME
• Summed up: Yes, females can serve, but it is quite obvious that boys are still preferred by the church.

That is all I’ve been saying. Please show me how this is against the “church’s ruling”.

I guess I can answer severel posts at once. I don’t disagree with the church.
However, I think its appropriate that girls serve at the alter. (if it wasn’t then the church wouldnt have allowed it).
And I have given my reasons for this.

It seems that many of you prefer the Church did in fact not find it appropriate.

Anyway, let not our differences divide us. I often, to my joy and peace, see girls serving at the alter and you can freely go to those few (at least its few in Europe) where the priest doesn’t like to see girls at the alter.
The Church has ruled that girls can be alter servants. I find it great. If anyone takes issue with it (and they have objective and proven reasons for urging the church to reconsider, and not just personal taste) then they can let their bishops know.
Reality is so far what it is and we can let this case rest with the church.

 

[Brendan]

I guess I can answer severel posts at once. I don’t disagree with the church…

The point is not “don’t disagree” with Church teachings, it’s important to give full and free consent of the will, to agree wholeheartily.

That is why I make it a habit of doing that paraphrase into the first person, it helps to ensure that I conform my will with whatever the Church teaches.

So go back, and do what I demonstrated. If your will is not in full accord with what the Church states, change it.

I, Brendan, respect the decision adopted by certain Bishops for specific local reasons on the basis of the provisions of Canon 230 2. At the same time, however, I, Brendan, wish to recall that it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar. As is well known, this has led to a reassuring development of priestly vocations. Thus the obligation to support such groups of altar boys should always continue.

 

[PaulinVA]

• Summed up: Yes, females can serve, but** it is quite obvious that boys are still preferred by the church.**

You have summed up your position quite well.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Service at the altar DOES give a young man an idea of what it is like to be a priest. Does it give a complete picture, no it does not, no more so than spending time in adoration gives a girl a complete picture of what it is like to be a contempletive nun.

But it does impart the idea and would be a great assistance in developing those distinct vocations.

If there is such clear evidence that this fosters vocations…then why was there a vocation crisis? Because when I was a child…girls were not allowed to be altar servers…and I’m not that old…wouldn’t it follow that we should still have PLENTY of priests as they would not be old enough to retire yet (as I’m only in my 40’s).

 

[Brendan]

If there is such clear evidence that this fosters vocations…then why was there a vocation crisis? Because when I was a child…girls were not allowed to be altar servers…and I’m not that old…wouldn’t it follow that we should still have PLENTY of priests as they would not be old enough to retire yet (as I’m only in my 40’s).

First of all, the Vatican says it does, therefore I believe them. They would know better than any of us, correct.

Secondly, as I mentioned before, what a pastor can do is help make the ground fertile for the seed of a vocation to take root.

That means doing what he can to make sure that the weeds don’t strangle it, and it does not fall about the rocks (or between the cracks in modern parlance).

That means involving as many boys as possible and insuring that they are truth and light for each other, and not weeds to each other.

If that did not happen, the seed never had a chance to grow. And every good priest should be doing all he can to nurture the seeds he sees growing (as most restrict themselves to doing). But there is a larger and greater step that has been lacking, in making the ground as fertile to a vocation as possible, so more seeds will take root.

That is what I believe has been lacking in the last several decades. Most good priests will happily nurture a seed that has spouted and is budding. But not enought priests are doing enought to make more seeds sprout in the first place.

That is really what is at the root of the large number of vocations that our parish is generating. And what is lacking in most parishes.

There is a LOT a pastor can do to make the ground fertile. Most don’t want to do it, it’s politcally incorrect to do.