America’s History of Fear

[edwest2]

It’s a political issue and it’s being used as such. It’s the bogeyman issue of the day. When one can’t convince voters your ideas are actually good —*better than the other side, than you resort to trying to convince people that only you can save them from the bogeyman the other side has let loose. Gays who want marriage rights and muslims are today’s bogeymen. In the 50s it was communists. In the 1960s it was blacks. In the 1970s it was radical war protesters and feminists.

This is far too simplistic. In order to defend the truth, it is important to locate the truth, not “let’s take advantage of this for our own gain.”

There is nothing wrong with ethnic groups or nationalism. But, thanks to politics, virtually everything can be turned into a weapon.

Celebrate diversity. Remember?

To use one of your examples: Radical war protesters who threatened to burn the country down were a legitimate threat. Feminists who tried to convince women that all men were the eternal enemy and “A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.” (Gloria Steinem) were a threat to social stability. To call either bogeymen is to deny the dysfunctional realities they both stood for.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Sufjon]

Note:

Please keep this conversation on-topic and charitable. Thank you.

 

[Kaninchen]

I wonder if there’s not an element of ‘what do you worry about when there’s not much to worry about’?

Not being surrounded by powerful neighbours, not being faced with things like a constant threat of mass starvation and so on, Americans may have needed/tended to be more inventive in their fears?

 

[Sufjon]

I wonder if there’s not an element of ‘what do you worry about when there’s not much to worry about’?

Not being surrounded by powerful neighbours, not being faced with things like a constant threat of mass starvation and so on, Americans may have needed/tended to be more inventive in their fears?

Yes, great observation! If a huge meteor were to be found rocketing toward our planet with but a few months to figure out how to stop it, all of humanity would probably become one big sisterhood/brotherhood trying to figure out how to stop the meteor. A year later, the English would be writing about how they stopped the meteor. The Americans would have their version, and so on. Back to being separate. We don’t seem to make very good use of the best of times, and we only see each other as one when there is a common threat. Aside from that, when we have time on our hands, we get into trouble.

 

[mtolympus]

I can’t speak for others, but my opposition stems from a suspicion that the mosque is intended as a monument to the “triumph” of radical Islam that was realized on 9/11. And that suspicion is reinforced by the promoters’ stubborn insistence on building it despite strong and growing public sentiment against it. That insistence - and the lack of response to critics - suggests some motive other than their claimed desire to build understanding and goodwill.

Your point speaks for me exactly. Thanks!

 

[KathleenGee]

There is the underlying perception that the site is to be used as a symbol of conquest…using the name Cordoba…when non-Muslims were publicly identified and deemed dhimmi…

and now the veiled threat by the imam himself…‘Imam handling of Islamic Center…and National Security’…cnn.com/2010/US/09/09/new.york.islamic.center.imam/index.html?hpt=T1

I don’t believe any symbol of conquest should be placed near the WTC…especially with veiled threats to our national security if it isn’t erected.

I cannot believe what has been happening to this country in the past 10 years…

 

[Sufjon]

There is the underlying perception that the site is to be used as a symbol of conquest…using the name Cordoba…when non-Muslims were publicly identified and deemed dhimmi…

I don’t believe any symbol of conquest should be placed near the WTC…especially with veiled threats to our national security if it isn’t erected.

I cannot believe what has been happening to this country in the past 10 years…

Heaven forbid that we should allow a potential symbol of conquest be to placed on land that we took from the Lenape Indians through conquest. And we’ve already built our own churches there to prove that land was OUR conquest, not theirs Those shameless copycats. I mean what HAS happened to this country? Used to be when a man took something from somebody, that was the end of it.

 

[KathleenGee]

So you are a type of relativist.

This is the other issue – the on going name calling by the Far Left Marxists in the media and public life…Finally the American public is no longer taking the labelling and name calling.

You give license to stealth radical Islam and its veiled use of blackmail through Muslim retribution if the mosque is moved to another location.

You are deliberately omitting the means Islam has historically used to conquer lands and enslave people.

Don’t hypocritically label me or or any other decent American citizens as murderous conquerers. The vast majority of American Muslim also oppose this project. Thus you are siding with the radical Islam and no different than the conquerers you refer to hundreds of years ago.

With your open mindedness, why not promote religious tolerance in the Muslim world??

 

[Sufjon]

So you are a type of relativist.

This is the other issue – the on going name calling by the Far Left Marxists in the media and public life…Finally the American public is no longer taking the labelling and name calling.

You give license to stealth radical Islam and its veiled use of blackmail through Muslim retribution if the mosque is moved to another location.

You are deliberately omitting the means Islam has historically used to conquer lands and enslave people.

Don’t hypocritically label me or or any other decent American citizens as murderous conquerers. The vast majority of American Muslim also oppose this project. Thus you are siding with the radical Islam and no different than the conquerers you refer to hundreds of years ago.

With your open mindedness, why not promote religious tolerance in the Muslim world??

Dear Friend KathleenGee: I don’t recall calling anyone a murderous conqueror.Those are your words. I am seeing your use of that description as a Freudian slip maybe. Just a guess on mt part, but my words lacked adjectives. I stated the fact that we took the land through conquest. Did we not, or did we take it through charity? I am open to correction. In your next point, I haven’t seen a poll to suggest how many Muslims favor the Mosque or oppose it. Regardless of how many favor it, the ones who do favor it have rights. That is the law of our land. I support those laws. You mention Muslim conquest of other lands, and you know that there are plenty of examples of Christian conquest in other lands. All of this is the past. Now is the time that we write the history of who we are at this time. We should use this time to show that we have learned from the past. You have suggested that I preach tolerance in the Muslim world. As far as promoting religious tolerance anywhere, I am promoting it here, since here is where I live. There is plenty of intolerance for me to address right here. That is after all how you and I ran into one another.

Respectfully,
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

This is the other issue – the on going name calling by the Far Left Marxists in the media and public life…Finally the American public is no longer taking the labelling and name calling.

Don’t hypocritically label me or or any other decent American citizens as murderous conquerers. The vast majority of American Muslim also oppose this project. Thus you are siding with the radical Islam and no different than the conquerers you refer to hundreds of years ago.

Dear Friend KathleenGee; I missed two of your points and didn’t address them. My apologies. I will address them now.

-You mention name calling by far-left Marxists in relation to my post, so I supposed that you are calling me a far left Marxist, and that might be name calling, wouldn’t it? Insofar as I know I haven’t called you any names. Even though I am not a good Christian man, I am able to forgive you for that anyway. I am only defending the rights of Muslims who live in our country the same way I would defend yours. I am not offended by their church and I am not offended by yours either. If you want to build a cathedral next door to the mosque, I think that’s great. You can build one where my house is if you want to buy the property.

-As for labeling you and other decent Americans as murderous conquerors, I think I already addressed your use of the term murderous. I never used that term. But I think the idea of decent Americans as conquerors came from my interpretation of your post where you said this mosque might be a Muslim conquest. Many of these Muslims are decent Americans, so the way I see it, your initial post is the post wherein decent Americans are labeled as conquerors. Also, in my view, Muslims who are not Americans are also welcome here in my country. By the way, my family has been in this country since 1658. My family participated in all of that conquest, so I am not being hypocritical at all. I take ownership for who I am, but that doesn’t mean I have to repeat mistakes I’ve already seen.

Now, do I think you have a bit of intolerance about you? Yes I do. Do I think it’s because you’re a bad person? No, I don’t. Intolerance comes from fear, misunderstanding and suspicion. What is there to fear from a Mosque dear friend?

Respectfully
Sufjon the far left Marxist

 

[KathleenGee]

Sufjon,

Where do you live?

 

[dianaiad]

How far away should the mosque be?

Somewhere that was not destroyed/damaged by the hijacked planes that destroyed the Twin Towers, perhaps?

Here’s the problem for me: we here in the USA have a constitution, and a long standing (though sometimes observed in the breaking, rather than the honoring, of it) tradition of religious tolerance. We cannot, legally, morally or ethically deny this man the right to build his mosque anywhere he wants to, if he has legal title to the land and he abides by the law already established.

That does not mean that the building of this mosque is NOT an incredible insult to everybody in the US, and especially to the families and the memories of those who lost their lives on 9/11 It is about as ‘in your face,’ and a gloating declaration of victory as I can possibly imagine…and given what Muslims would do…and have done…to those who have given insults at a far smaller level, it’s also a cynical and deliberate next step.

You see, no matter what happens, they win and we lose. It’s actually quite brilliant, strategically. If we somehow go against our own stated principles in order to prevent this, and pass unconstitutional laws or fiddle with building codes in order to keep it from happening, they win. They have forced us to abrogate our own principles, and they can cry ‘discrimination’ and 'bigot!"…and they would be right.

If they build it and nothing happens, they win. There it will be, a mosque built that close to Ground Zero, in a building that was (in the eyes of the terrorist fringe, anyway) ‘blessed’ by the very airplane that took the towers down. Always there, always mocking, a declaration of victory–like the Mosque on the Temple Mount, or all the mosques built out of Christian cathedrals during Muslim expansion–examples abound. It’s what they, historically, DO.

Finally, if they build it and some fringe fanatic attacks it…burns it down, vandalizes it or other wise messes with it, they win. Even more than if it is somehow prevented from going up, they win in this case–again, it’s a huge PR victory for them no matter what happens here, because they are willing to give insult that they are willing to kill rather than accept; and they are willing to do that because they know that, unlike what would happen if a Christian proposed building a cathedral in Saudi Arabia or Palastine, our very laws and principles assure them that they CAN build a mosque wherever they flippin’ well want to here.

…and while they would see opposition to a Christian building going up in their land as holy and good, they know that WE see opposition to people worshiping as they wish to worship as a bad thing. They win again.

The only hope we have is that honest and honorable Muslims see through this: that THEY see how incredible and egregious–and insidious…an insult building that mosque RIGHT THERE, and dedicating it on the anniversary of 9/11, no less, is to us, and refuse to fund it.

Build it a block down, please, if you build it. Pick a building that was NOT damaged on that horrific day. Do that, and I’ll contribute! Please; consider how you would feel if some Christian fanatic bombed, say…the Burj Khalifa in Dubai, and another Christian, with ties to the folks who funded the bombers, decided to build a Christian cathedral two blocks away, using a building that was partially flattened by that tower as it came down. Not only that, but we intend to dedicate it on the anniversary of the destruction of this tower, presently the tallest building in the world.

Put yourselves in our shoes…

And then build your mosque elsewhere.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

A radio interviewer asked me the other day if I thought bigotry was the only reason why someone might oppose the Islamic center in Lower Manhattan. No, I don’t.

The families of the victims of the 9/11 are the primary concern for those who feel a mosque near ground is imprudent. It’s has nothing to do with fear or bigotry.

Most of the opponents aren’t bigots but well-meaning worriers — and during earlier waves of intolerance in American history, it was just the same.

Screeds against Catholics from the 19th century sounded just like the invective today against the Not-at-Ground-Zero Mosque. The starting point isn’t hatred but fear: an alarm among patriots that newcomers don’t share their values, don’t believe in democracy, and may harm innocent Americans.

Followers of these movements against Irish, Germans, Italians, Chinese and other immigrants were mostly decent, well-meaning people trying to protect their country. But they were manipulated by demagogues playing upon their fears — the 19th- and 20th-century equivalents of Glenn Beck.

We are not well meaning worriers we are victims of islamist-terrorist. And so is the whole world, even Sufis, and women who don’t wear the head-scarf like Sakineh Mohammadi-Ashtiani…

The way that caller put it is like it has nothing to do with America being attacked during 9/11. The mosque near Ground Zero and what happened in America’s history is an apple to orange comparison. The starting point was that America was attacked during 9/11. Well not exact the starting point maybe the mid-point there was some activity prior to 9/11 where America interest were targeted by islamist-terrorist, and the World Trade Center was targeted once before with a van Bomb, then there’s the incident with the embassy in Africa and the USS Cole - don’t forget. There one reason and it isn’t that Americans are well meaning worriers, it’s the attacks on 9/11, that is the real back story of why the mosque should not be place near Ground Zero.

 

[mtolympus]

Was Noah a fear monger?

 

[Sufjon]

Sufjon,

Where do you live?

Dear Friend KathleenGee: In Arlington, Va. A few miles from the Pentagon. My mother worked there and my brother did too. I worked three blocks from there. None of us were there on that terrible day though.

Respectfully,
Sufjon

 

[Kadaveri]

I wonder if there’s not an element of ‘what do you worry about when there’s not much to worry about’?

Not being surrounded by powerful neighbours, not being faced with things like a constant threat of mass starvation and so on, Americans may have needed/tended to be more inventive in their fears?

I think there’s truth in this. I don’t have any empirical data on it but Americans do seem to be a extraordinarily fearful people; which is quite surprisingly considering they live in the world’s dominant superpower with a level of security far beyond what most other countries can dream of. There’s a common theme in American politics that the government alerts the public that they’ve discovered a terrifying imminent threat to the nation (like Saddam Hussein’s famous “weapons of mass destruction”) and everyone (bar the odd skeptic) gets really alarmed. But the government (usually fronted by some cowboy President) always somehow manages to save the day just in time, cue the ‘Mission Accomplished’ celebrations. It’s all done like a cliched Hollywood production.

 

[pete_29]

This isn’t about fear. It’s about anger. Anger that certain religious fanatics decide that they can kill people who never did one thing to hurt them and that almost none of these fanatics bretheren do anything to stop them much less condemn or critcize them. Tolerence? Tell it to the victims of 9/11.

 

[dianaiad]

I think there’s truth in this. I don’t have any empirical data on it but Americans do seem to be a extraordinarily fearful people; which is quite surprisingly considering they live in the world’s dominant superpower with a level of security far beyond what most other countries can dream of. There’s a common theme in American politics that the government alerts the public that they’ve discovered a terrifying imminent threat to the nation (like Saddam Hussein’s famous “weapons of mass destruction”) and everyone (bar the odd skeptic) gets really alarmed. But the government (usually fronted by some cowboy President) always somehow manages to save the day just in time, cue the ‘Mission Accomplished’ celebrations. It’s all done like a cliched Hollywood production.

…and there speaks someone who didn’t live through WWII, the Korean War, the Cuban Missile Crises, VietNam…or 9/11.

…and that’s just in the USA. Very few Europeans have not seen that sort of violence up close and very personal–within a hundred miles of them.

 

[dianaiad]

This isn’t about fear. It’s about anger. Anger that certain religious fanatics decide that they can kill people who never did one thing to hurt them and that almost none of these fanatics bretheren do anything to stop them much less condemn or critcize them. Tolerence? Tell it to the victims of 9/11.

Yes, it’s anger–and it’s also a percieved anger at a world that seems to believe that it is OK for Islaam to get fanatical, insulted and violent over that insult when some cartoonist draws a picture, and forces authors of books to live in hiding for the rest of their lives, and who force innocent people to go with them as they destroy thousands of other lives…but who tell US that we have no right to react to the insult of having Muslims build a victory monument over the graves of those who were murdered that day.

…and yes, that is exactly the perception of what this mosque is. If that’s not what is intended, then the Muslim involved should do what is required to remove that perceived insult. Build it–but build it elsewhere. Dedicate it on 9/11 if you must, but don’t build it there. If I had land or a building to donate for the purpose, I would.

Wasn’t there a poll recently that showed that most Americans would be fine with that mosque next door to their own homes—just, not THERE?

 

[KathleenGee]

Sufjon,

Certainly you are living at the heart of this tragedy as well.

Our young people are pawns by the left wing indoctrination very powerful in our country, in the universities and media outlets. People have no idea the degree to which Marxism has promoted disinformation that America is the enemy throughout the world.

Of all countries in the modern world, America has done more for the poor and people in need than any other country in the world. Only our country has university degrees that verify their education. And we want to retain the good of our country. I am speaking for every day Americans who now have no voice or rights. And if we protest, we are labelled as bigots.

Putting out the reference that we have no right to protest those putting up this self-promoting mosque and using some people killing other people hundreds of years ago is an insult to the reality of what is happening now. It is inflammatory. This mosque will not have anything in it regarding inter faith tolerance, something the Muslim world is devoid of.

Both Marxism and Islam is totalitarian. I worked in the second poorest country in the world at that time. When it became Leninist Marxist…the first day of their country’s independence from colonial rule, the country’s new newspaper didn’t refer to that.

The headlines instead said, ‘AMERICA IS THE ENEMY OF THE WORLD’… just like that in bold black ink. If there was any problem in the world, America was the cause.

The other thing young people are being taught is that religion has caused more deaths than any other force in the history of mankind. A young woman came forward with her timeline on Newsvine and indeed it was not religion, but secular governments who have been the cause of more deaths than any other force. Disinformation has an incredible way of blocking out the millions and millions of deaths under communism that far outweight what the Naziis did. We seldom if ever see anything about the pogroms and gulags in the media. Wonder why???

The second force is Islam — 270 million deaths. And it has this habit of erecting monuments of triumph over conquested sites, particularly churches or places it has decimated. The WTC mosque/center was to be called the Cordoba House.

Now just two nights ago, the holy imam slyly used blackmail…to Soledad on CCN… by saying the whole world is watching…the Muslims are watching what we are going to do with the mosque…and it could be a matter of national security for us if we do not allow this. I ‘see’ this guy. He is political. He has ties to the terrorist ‘Holy Land’ Foundation that is now going to trial…the Holy Land of Jews and Christians…who has power over it???

The FBI immediately picked up on this man’s insinuation. A representative came on yesterday and said that the terrorists and others like them do not see the movement of the mosque to another place as something they would use as means to again attack us.

Finally, if you are referring back to we can’t do anything about it because of who was murdered hundreds of years ago is totally lame…You are not in touch with every day life of good and honest citizens to say such a thing.

What you are seeing is the backlash of so many Americans being forced to live with the day to day consequences of various people coming here with bad intentions to change our way of life. Over five thousand Americans living ordinary lives have been murdered or killed by illegal aliens. The year after 9/11 in 2002, many Muslims were instead rejoicing because of some anthropological find that the Muslims were here before Columbus and it was really the Muslims who discovered America. We now cannot even have English as our official language. We cannot defend our borders, we cannot react to the imposition and demands and exploitation of welfare, or the use of frivolous or dubious lawsuits as the Muslims are doing to sue their way into having special rights.

If we oppose anything, we are labelled racists, Islamaphobes…and the Marxist MO is to use race and class division to cause civil unrest. It is a classic. And people aren’t taking it any more.

Fidel Castro is now undergoing a great conversion after overcoming cancer., and he is now admitting communism is not doing well there. He was one who misrepresented who he was to the people, and once he was in power hard core communism was put in place. People were killed and imprisoned.

Blow up something, kill people and the place is yours, and if you don’t let us do what we want – and don’t expect us to do the same for you…you will now have to deal with your own national security.

I say deport this guy.

You keep sticking up for people who are out to take over our country…it certainly won’t happen overnight, but some day you may lose the right to speak your mind.

Sufjon,why not read how Islam expanded. See the records of dhimmitude in Cordoba,Spain. Get a book on the Gulags by Solhetzyian – spelling, do an objective research mind the validity of your sources and see how many millions of people were murdered by their own people in Russia, China, Viet Nam, Cambodia, Mozambique, Nissau Guinei, the Balkans, Hungary, Eastern Germany, Bulgaria and the eastern countries overcome by Communism.

The immigrant is to respect the host country. The imam and his Marxist associates – they are present there in support of him but the leftist media won’t show it…have no respect and have ulterior motives. They are not working for unity but for the imposition of Islam.