America’s History of Fear

[dianaiad]

If the people building this are booking it as a sign of peace and reconciliation, then I will take them at their word.

But they aren’t.

Regardless of their intent, if you paint this building as a sign of reconciliation and peace and all Americans speak of it as such, then that is likely how it will be thought of as time passes.

You mean like the Dome of the Rock is considered as a monument to reconciliation and peace, as it sits on the site of the ancient JEWISH TEMPLE? The way all those mosques taking the place of the Chrsitian cathedrals are?

I MIGHT consider that it is this, if Muslim practice were NOT to erect mosques as monuments of victory, taking the place of the sacred edifices of the defeated peoples. Their history, in other words, is working against them. I happen to be quite a fan of George Santayana…

If people make a decision for example to start referring to it as “The Reconciliation Center” for example, then that is what it will become over time.

Except that it will not. Calling it that is a remarkable example of Orwellian newspeak.

You will have defeated the intent of anyone who may have built it as an insult. If you paint it as an insult, it will be an insult.

No, my friend, it is an insult because every ounce of the intent is to insult. It doesn’t much matter what WE do about it…Muslim extremists will see it as an insult–and a hugely successful slap in the face…akin to clobbering your enemy with your shoe.If we pretend to see it as a ‘gesture of reconciliation,’ it will be even better for them; akin to our picking up the shoe they threw at us and licking the sole of it in gratitude.

In US law there used to be a concept called ‘fighting words’ that ameliorated…not the guilt of an assault, but the punishment for it. It was understood that some words, some insults were so unbearable as to be almost a physical attack against which self defense is permissable. Certainly Muslims live by this…look at what they do, and threaten to do, to people who merely draw cartoons or write books!

As far as what might happen in other countries, you and I should focus on what happens in our country and how we act. Nothing will be settled by joining those who might be stepping down to the lowest behavior. By stepping to the higher behavior, then you have at least elevated your own being. Others may follow your example, but there will always be those who focus on lesser behavior.

Turning the other cheek is an admirable idea. I’m not suggesting that we take violent action against these people. Shoot, I’m not even suggeting that we do something legal to stop them.

But I see no need to pretend that their actions are anything other than what they are.

If you read my other posts you will see that I don’t like nationalist identities or religious affiliations. I prefer to see just people. If you believe in God, then children of God is how I would see them. If they chose to divide themselves this way or that, I chose not to participate. If you have all of these human made identities and the divisions that follow, you will always have these situations to deal with. Look at the folks on the CAF website. Mormons fighting with Catholics, Protestants fighting with JW’s, and so on and so on. They are all Christians and they can’t even agree. Chances are they never will. They are spinning their wheels. This is how people will always act when they divide themselves, and by identifying with a man made identity, you will always be divided.

That is very true.

However, I AM a Mormon; that means that I am not (cough) a pacifist. I come from a fairly long line of people who have been on the receiving end of incredible intolerance, and I find myself unwilling to put up with more just because it is politically correct to do so.

…and that, sir, is the problem here. Everybody has this thing turned around. It is not those who are pointing out the insult that are being intolerant. It is the extremist Muslims who are actually promoting this thing that are exhibiting not merely intolerance, but an attitude of gloating victory that, frankly, makes my blood boil.

If they truly wanted to build something as a symbol of reconciliation and outreach, they would be building something dedicated to those who lost their lives—not to those who cheered the carnage.

As for me, if this Mosque is intended as an insult, then I will chose to see it as an olive branch. I will make it such in my own heart and in how I speak of it. if someone intends it or speaks of it as something less, then they have denigrated only themselves.

That’s fine, but the fact remains that it doesn’t matter how often you call a dog a cat, it’s till going to bark at you.

 

[FOFEBA]

I have lived in Turkey and the ME, and so I have a number of Muslim friends. I find them to actually live many of the “Christian” ideals far more often than many Christians do. In general, then tend to be far more faith oriented in their lives than westerners. Without a doubt in my mind, Muslims are far more ethical to do business with than the Christians which I have had as partners in the past. This sentiment is echoed by other entrepreneurs whom I know. What has happened to Christianity? Is it reserved for Sundays only?

I was chatting on the phone with a friend in Karachi on Thursday night (Friday morning in Pakistan). I mentioned that I was saddened to hear about the bombings on the previous weekend. I also asked him how the relief effort was going for the flood victims, and I expressed my concern that the Taliban would gain a foothold where the Paki government is failing.

His response what that his deepest worry was that his kids (college age, and one in college in California) were so inured to the violence, that nothing seems to affect them anymore. I wondered whether this was a traumatic reaction, or desensitization.

I guess my point is that these publicity maneuvors by those who would build a controversial mosque, or those who would burn the koran on a holy day for muslims are simply hysterical acts which will drive us further apart as people.

 

[KathleenGee]

I agree with the last poster here…just viewing news on the tragedy in Pakistan. I pray for these poor people.

It is apparent, though, that the initial perceptions of building the monument to Islam two blocks from where even body parts were found,coupled with the fact by the imam himself that if it is moved, now we will face national security issues…it is not only blackmail, but was indeed meant to be provocative. There will be nothing at the center to promote inter-faith tolerance and understanding, but more to promote Islam.

The leader imam has ties with Iran and Hamas, and Iran is upping the ante for war. Now there is the usual violent outrages by Muslims in the world over the burning of Korans. And now the Muslims in Florida suing a theater because they wanted to celebrate their religious holiday on 9/11 there when it was already reserved…And Muslims desecrated the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, urinating, wiping themselves with pages of the Bible, as well as many others desecrating our religion.

If there is any thing I would want to see is the end of Muslim intolerance and violence and the abuse of non-Muslims throughout the world.

My good friend from high school has been working in Turkey. She is a very devout Baptist Christian and cannot even speak of her own personal faith in her letters to us from Turkey. But she also shares with us pictures of the many Muslim friends she has made there who have integrity of faith, sensibility, and would never impose their will on injured people.

And that is the problem. We have native relativists themselves who are further promoting inflammatory reactions because they do not recognize the sensitivities and on going suffering of the entire country who are still grieving.

We are now heading for a vicious cycle of violence…I hope and pray it does not escalate.

 

[Sufjon]

But they aren’t.

That’s fine, but the fact remains that it doesn’t matter how often you call a dog a cat, it’s till going to bark at you.

That is the whole point in a nutshell. The point is that when I walk past a house with barking dog in the yard, I don’t stop to bark back at it.

Dear Friend dianaiad: I know you’re angry about this whole thing and I also know you’re probably a good person. I have offered ways you might find some peace with it. That’s my only wish for you. Whatever your faith is, or even if you don’t have a faith like myself, the challenge for all of us is to get our minds and hearts in a good place. I like your barking dogs thing. There are a of of barking dogs in this world. When you walk past them remember to be about where you are going. It’s so easy to get sucked into it. Don’t get derailed by the noise around you.

 

[dianaiad]

That is the whole point in a nutshell. The point is that when I walk past a house with barking dog in the yard, I don’t stop to bark back at it.

Dear Friend dianaiad: I know you’re angry about this whole thing and I also know you’re probably a good person. I have offered ways you might find some peace with it. That’s my only wish for you. Whatever your faith is, or even if you don’t have a faith like myself, the challenge for all of us is to get our minds and hearts in a good place. I like your barking dogs thing. There are a of of barking dogs in this world. When you walk past them remember to be about where you are going. It’s so easy to get sucked into it. Don’t get derailed by the noise around you.

I used the example of the barking dog for two reasons. First, I still bear the scars, fifty years later, from where a dog decided to have me for dinner. I have never been able to wear short sleeves…and though I do like dogs, and have had them as pets, I never forget that a barking is a dog that doesn’t like you. Second, the way to deal with a barking dog is to let it know that it does NOT intimidate you, and that barking doesn’t get it what it wants.

If you have a pet that has a barking problem, the one thing you do NOT do is reward him for it.

 

[Sufjon]

I used the example of the barking dog for two reasons. First, I still bear the scars, fifty years later, from where a dog decided to have me for dinner. I have never been able to wear short sleeves…and though I do like dogs, and have had them as pets, I never forget that a barking is a dog that doesn’t like you. Second, the way to deal with a barking dog is to let it know that it does NOT intimidate you, and that barking doesn’t get it what it wants.

If you have a pet that has a barking problem, the one thing you do NOT do is reward him for it.

Friend dianaiad: I’m sorry that a dog messed you up once. I have scars from things too. Like you, mine are visible. I have have found it better to keep them on the outside, rather than to let them inside. It is one thing to stand firm against a threat. I don’t see the mosque as a threat. I don’t have anything to fear from these people who are building the mosque. I believe them when they say their intentions are good. If I’m wrong, then they will have spent millions of dollars to do something foolish. Who is the lesser from it, the one who embraced it as an act of good faith, or the ones who tried but failed to pull me into a lesser state of being? Anyway, my sense is that you have made your mind up to be upset about it, and there is little I can do about that. I am hoping that you’ll be able to let it go so you can focus on what counts. It’s easy for me, because I don’t see this world or anything in it as mine. I worked for years to gain that view. Think about it - that view is the only real freedom there is.

Good luck to you and I hope you get over this thing. I really do.

 

[dianaiad]

Friend dianaiad: I’m sorry that a dog messed you up once. I have scars from things too. Like you, mine are visible. I have have found it better to keep them on the outside, rather than to let them inside. It is one thing to stand firm against a threat. I don’t see the mosque as a threat.

I don’t see A mosque as a threat, either. I see THAT one as a threat because the builders are making it one. It is their motives at issue here, not my intolerance.

I don’t have anything to fear from these people who are building the mosque.

]

Yes you do. All people do…and frankly the vast majority of Muslims who do not belong to the militant extremist terrorist end of their belief system have more to fear than any of us, for many different reasona.

I believe them when they say their intentions are good.

There is a line between innocent naivete, and willful blindness, and it’s not all that thin. The problem is, they may speak words saying this, but their actions (where they are building it, the date they want to dedicate it, the very public connections of the Imam who wants to build it and now the obvious threats to those who object to it) do indeed speak louder than their words.

After all, how likely ARE you to believe a man who tells you that everything is going to be OK if you just stay quiet…when he has just hijacked your plane and is two seconds away from hitting the twin towers? I mean…really? Like the armed bankrobber who, having just shot the elderly guard, tells you that he is just there to open a savings account?

Really?

If I’m wrong, then they will have spent millions of dollars to do something foolish.

…'something foolish"

No, actually, it will have been brilliant. That’s the one thing about this that I have to admire, in a strictly objective 'Art of War" sort of way. The ONLY way they don’t win a HUGE morale and public victory here is if their own people won’t fund it, or see to it that nobody else does, either. If it is built, it stands as a victory monument. They win. If WE stop it by breaking our own laws and ethics, they win. If they build it and some extremist attacks it (and that will happen…look at those idiots who wanted to burn the Quran…how dumb is that, anyway?) they REALLY win.

It is brilliant. It’s sneaky.

And I"m calling them on it.

Who is the lesser from it, the one who embraced it as an act of good faith, or the ones who tried but failed to pull me into a lesser state of being? Anyway, my sense is that you have made your mind up to be upset about it, and there is little I can do about that. I am hoping that you’ll be able to let it go so you can focus on what counts. It’s easy for me, because I don’t see this world or anything in it as mine. I worked for years to gain that view. Think about it - that view is the only real freedom there is.

Good luck to you and I hope you get over this thing. I really do.

Well, peace and love and flower power to you, too, m’friend…

As for me, I am absolutely wedded to the idea that all men should be free to worship, and live, as they wish. Unfortunately for the terrorist types, I include me in that “all men.”

 

[Sufjon]

I don’t see A mosque as a threat, either. I see THAT one as a threat because the builders are making it one. It is their motives at issue here, not my intolerance.

]

Yes you do. All people do…and frankly the vast majority of Muslims who do not belong to the militant extremist terrorist end of their belief system have more to fear than any of us, for many different reasona.

There is a line between innocent naivete, and willful blindness, and it’s not all that thin. The problem is, they may speak words saying this, but their actions (where they are building it, the date they want to dedicate it, the very public connections of the Imam who wants to build it and now the obvious threats to those who object to it) do indeed speak louder than their words.

After all, how likely ARE you to believe a man who tells you that everything is going to be OK if you just stay quiet…when he has just hijacked your plane and is two seconds away from hitting the twin towers? I mean…really? Like the armed bankrobber who, having just shot the elderly guard, tells you that he is just there to open a savings account?

Really?

…'something foolish"

No, actually, it will have been brilliant. That’s the one thing about this that I have to admire, in a strictly objective 'Art of War" sort of way. The ONLY way they don’t win a HUGE morale and public victory here is if their own people won’t fund it, or see to it that nobody else does, either. If it is built, it stands as a victory monument. They win. If WE stop it by breaking our own laws and ethics, they win. If they build it and some extremist attacks it (and that will happen…look at those idiots who wanted to burn the Quran…how dumb is that, anyway?) they REALLY win.

It is brilliant. It’s sneaky.

And I"m calling them on it.

Well, peace and love and flower power to you, too, m’friend…

As for me, I am absolutely wedded to the idea that all men should be free to worship, and live, as they wish. Unfortunately for the terrorist types, I include me in that “all men.”

This world was full of noise before you and I came along and it’ll be full of noise after we leave it. The key is to transcend it. The more enmeshed you become with it’s cares, the less we are able to focus on what is eternal. You know - I think you should be the agnostic and I should be the Christian.

 

[KathleenGee]

Well, now I found out where the reference to Indians killed a few hundred years ago came from to justify keeping the mosque two blocks from the WTC,…from the president of the Black Panther Party who also has his own brand of bigotry and biased history.

This analogy makes me recall a conversation the other day with a client whose husband’s parents came from Norway. He went there a few years ago and spoke to them in Norwegian. They all laughed because he talked like people did 90 years ago.

Two hundred years ago with mentalities of so many peoples, is different than the mentalities of New Yorkers today.

The fellow from the Black Panther Party held up the Koran and said it is important for people to know that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, who were Shriners, also reflected on the Koran.

This past week,the head of Islam in Pakistan said that Obama should declare himself the Caliph of America then all the troubles will be settled. Later, this evening, the prime minister of Pakistan said that the Muslim site should be moved because it is inflammatory and people should extend their energies in a better way.

And finally, now the Muslim developers are considering to profit from the tragedy of 9/11 by charging $25 million to move to another site after buying it for $5 million.

So again, now with the insinuation by the imam that we could incur retribution for having it moved, they are now seeing this tragic site of so many deaths as a means of a big profit.

 

[viveret]

I recall an interview where an imam said that in the West Christianity failed, and the only way of controlling people (not to sin or crimes) is through fear, to make the punishment so severe that the people would live in fear of committing any crime. So the reason why islam does works according to this imam the people live in fear of being punished. But that is only an opinion of one imam on islam.

The law, in Western civilizations, is not based on fear, but on reason.
Read Aristotle.
Even so, in most of the historical life of the West, societies were extraordinarily brutal-- fear was what kept people “in line.”
And then it ceased to work.
Public executions were found to encourage disorder, not prevent it.
The asylum-inmates were not improved by having people come in and gawk at their suffering and confinement.
It is in non-Western civilizations that law is based on fear.
A progressive society is evident not in what people have, but in what people have abandoned to the scrap heap of history.
There is fear out there.
The answer to the problem of fear is faith. With faith, we can face anything.

 

[Sufjon]

Well, now I found out where the reference to Indians killed a few hundred years ago came from to justify keeping the mosque two blocks from the WTC,…from the president of the Black Panther Party who also has his own brand of bigotry and biased history.

This analogy makes me recall a conversation the other day with a client whose husband’s parents came from Norway. He went there a few years ago and spoke to them in Norwegian. They all laughed because he talked like people did 90 years ago.

Two hundred years ago with mentalities of so many peoples, is different than the mentalities of New Yorkers today.

The fellow from the Black Panther Party held up the Koran and said it is important for people to know that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, who were Shriners, also reflected on the Koran.

This past week,the head of Islam in Pakistan said that Obama should declare himself the Caliph of America then all the troubles will be settled. Later, this evening, the prime minister of Pakistan said that the Muslim site should be moved because it is inflammatory and people should extend their energies in a better way.

And finally, now the Muslim developers are considering to profit from the tragedy of 9/11 by charging $25 million to move to another site after buying it for $5 million.

So again, now with the insinuation by the imam that we could incur retribution for having it moved, they are now seeing this tragic site of so many deaths as a means of a big profit.

I didn’t get the reference to the Native Americans from the Black Panthers. You are worried about so many things dear KathleenGee - Black Panthers, Marxists, Muslims, academic institutions. All of them at some point you have mentioned as some sort of lurking evil. Carrying around this world and all it’s cares is like carrying a bicycle on your back on a hot day. Put it down and ride it instead my friend.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thank you dear Sufjon…

But again, you are committing the same excesses of the past…labelling all white people as part of the Indian killers to justify tolerance for people who are deliberately shoving their belief system on a place where 3,000 people were murdered.

Most Americans, including moderate Muslims both here and abroad, consider the whole movement at the most insensitive.

And to name the place Cordoba…is indeed inflammatory and political. Cordoba was the city whose cathedral was demolished and replaced by a mosque, and the Jews and Christians were delegated to dhimmi status. There have been posts explaining how people lived in Spain who were not Muslim, and it is not the benevolent and place of equal rights the imam at Park51 is making it out to be.

So for them to put such a monument in this place and to name it Cordoba expressed symbolically that it is in deed a place of triumph. And the following year for a certain strata of Muslims to be emboldened here thinking Muslims discovered America…is part of the cycle of violence of Islam in the overthrow of other countries. They commit murders, plunder, destroy places of worship, erect their mosques, enforce dhimmi.

Last night caused me to recall the symbolism and usages from the Koran that are used in the secret societies. Very creepy. The kingdom of Christ is not of this world.

You cannot impose something on people who are very hurt and emotional about such a horrific crime. That is inhumane. Would you do such a thing?

 

[dianaiad]

This world was full of noise before you and I came along and it’ll be full of noise after we leave it. The key is to transcend it. The more enmeshed you become with it’s cares, the less we are able to focus on what is eternal. You know - I think you should be the agnostic and I should be the Christian.

Let’s be very clear, here, sir:

I am not advocating (as you could tell from a couple of my posts on this topic) that WE do anything to stop the building of this mosque. We can’t, without abrogating the very freedoms of religion we prize—and they don’t.

Once it is built, if it is built, WE must see to it that it remains unsullied and free from harm.

As I mentioned, the only way that this mosque SHOULD be prevented from being built is for Muslims to see, and understand to their souls, just how egregious an insult it is–and to simply not build it.

However, if they do build it, then the rest of us must—absolutely ignore it. Not use it. Not attend it. Not contribute to it. Leave it strictly alone. Pretend that it is not there…make it invisible. Do not mark it, attack it, threaten it…assign address numbers around it so that it becomes a non-address.

Make it irrelevant–and invisible.

However, if I can, by pointing out that the motives of those who are building it ARE dishonest…and that they are indeed deliberately insulting the USA and those people who died on 9/11 at the hands of the very extremists the Imam is associated with…

Well, maybe it will wake some Muslims who otherwise would send money to it, not send money to it.

My unwillingness to break my own ethical code to stop them doesn’t mean I don’t know what they are doing.

 

[KathleenGee]

Dianaid is right. Those putting that mosque up two blocks where remains of the dead were found, denying the continued suffering of our own country, the Muslim frivolous lawsuits to force their ways on us, and the rest of the world is going through because of militant Islam is a form of provocation in itself…

One of the worst aspects of abuse and inhumane violation to human beings are those in the political arena who deny any damage, deny their continued suffering, and write it offf as something to ‘get over with’.

You deny no association to any religion. Yet you come to a Catholic site that also draws other religions to tell us to get over it. You do not know the history of religions. You do not know what Islam has done. Look at Constantinople…St. Sophia’s…the blasphemy and sacrilege done to the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem…and the Christians around the world could do nothing about it.

The entire church had to be cleaned up of the excrement and filth by the Muslims. The church had to be reconsecrated to the Lord.

.

 

[KathleenGee]

Here is an article written by a woman with its own hyperbole and puns …and in response to imam’s veiled threat that if the mosque is moved, it will then be a question of national security for our country…‘the world of Islam is watching us’…

Well, here is a woman who is watching imam and his followers.

www.humanevents.com/article.php?=38938&s=rcmp

And the world has been reading the history of Islam now for 9 years…

The internet has made the world very, very small.

 

[Sufjon]

Dianaid is right. Those putting that mosque up two blocks where remains of the dead were found, denying the continued suffering of our own country, the Muslim frivolous lawsuits to force their ways on us, and the rest of the world is going through because of militant Islam is a form of provocation in itself…

One of the worst aspects of abuse and inhumane violation to human beings are those in the political arena who deny any damage, deny their continued suffering, and write it offf as something to ‘get over with’.

You deny no association to any religion. Yet you come to a Catholic site that also draws other religions to tell us to get over it. You do not know the history of religions. You do not know what Islam has done. Look at Constantinople…St. Sophia’s…the blasphemy and sacrilege done to the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem…and the Christians around the world could do nothing about it.

The entire church had to be cleaned up of the excrement and filth by the Muslims. The church had to be reconsecrated to the Lord.

.

You are assuming that because I have no religion that I don’t know the history of religions. I know the histories very well. Aggression, violence, conquest and t he like aren’t the exclusive domain of any one religion. Many religions have participated in such things. Muslims can probably cite as many grievances with Christianity as you can about them. It is probably the history of religions that keep me from having one. They talk about peace and they don’t seem to bring anyone any peace. So if you want to be angry or hurt over this thing, then I guess that’s what you’re going to do. You chose t o suffer and that is your choice. Looks like you’re going to have to be angry at me as well for being at peace with the whole thing. So, what do you want from me?

 

[Sufjon]

Let’s be very clear, here, sir:

However, if they do build it, then the rest of us must—absolutely ignore it. Not use it. Not attend it. Not contribute to it. Leave it strictly alone. Pretend that it is not there…make it invisible. Do not mark it, attack it, threaten it…assign address numbers around it so that it becomes a non-address.

Make it irrelevant–and invisible.

Sounds like a plan dianaiad. When will you start ignoring it? I can start today, how about you?

 

[Sufjon]

The internet has made the world very, very small.

Yes, let it not make us the same.

If I go out looking for insults I can find plenty of them. If I wanted to I could get insulted by what I see as intolerance in a country that my family has sacrificed lives for in order for it to be a place of tolerance. My family has been serving in the armed forces in the US since the Revolution. I served my country in uniform as well. Members of my family have died in almost every conflict this nation has had since it’s very start. They died to uphold the principles of religious tolerance and all the other guarantees of the constitution. My father had three bayonet wounds in his back at the hands of the Japanese, and never once can I remember him saying anything bad about the Japanese. So I could see all of this fuss going on as an insult to the sacrifices I made and my family has made. But I don’t. I learned from people like my father to do things like take the high ground, and never let anyone else sway you to give up your convictions. My conviction on this Mosque is that these people are free to take advantage of the freedoms I and others have sacrificed to secure for everyone. If they use it to insult me, then I am in no way the lesser for it. My conviction is to be accountable for what I do and how I act. The actions of other people can in no way denigrate who and what I am. Only I can do that, and I choose not to.

 

[dianaiad]

Here is an article written by a woman with its own hyperbole and puns …and in response to imam’s veiled threat that if the mosque is moved, it will then be a question of national security for our country…‘the world of Islam is watching us’…

Well, here is a woman who is watching imam and his followers.

www.humanevents.com/article.php?=38938&s=rcmp

And the world has been reading the history of Islam now for 9 years…

The internet has made the world very, very small.

this is a broken link, Kathleen…"Human Events’ moved the article. Could you tell me the title and the author? I might be able to find it that way.

 

[dianaiad]

Sounds like a plan dianaiad. When will you start ignoring it? I can start today, how about you?

After it is built, if it is built. Until then, Muslims (the vast majority of Muslims who simply want to believe and worship as they wish) need to know exactly how nasty an insult it is that is being proposed.