America’s History of Fear

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…and there speaks someone who didn’t live through WWII, the Korean War, the Cuban Missile Crises, VietNam…or 9/11.

…and that’s just in the USA. Very few Europeans have not seen that sort of violence up close and very personal–within a hundred miles of them.
None of those things were “in the USA” apart from 9/11 and that was a very minor wound. That Americans act so traumatised over it shows how secure they are. The 9/11 attacks are only significant in that they’re a very rare (maybe the only) case of an oppressed people striking an imperialist power with the kind of atrocity usually reserved for themselves. Compared to the mass of terrorist crimes perpetrated by the US over the last 50 years 9/11 wouldn’t be worth mentioning if only for that this time someone did it to the US.

The US has never experienced a real war, certainly not in the 20th Century sense. Going back further you could possibly include the Civil War, but that was still quite low intensity compared to European conflicts of the period.
 
Kadervi

You indeed have little respect for human life, especially Americans. Your fellow believers here the following year heard about an archaeological find that proved to them the Muslims actually discovered America. The Muslims were ecstatic…you can do a search and there are many reference to it in 2002. They care nothing for us. They are exploiting us and we know it.

Blow up people, destroy…and it becomes an apple in your eye. The imam threatened us the other night with a CNN interview that if the mosque is moved it will affect our national security. The building will have nothing about inter faith tolerance.

I watch films from destruction of wars and have alot of humanity and compassion for those who have died, no matter their orientation or where they live in the world.
 
And Kadervi,

Europe suffered alot from wars…and where did many of them come from?? the East.

How many wars and skirmishes has Islam initiated in the world in its lust for world domain? How do you justify taking over the Holy Land and Constaninople by Islam and the other 270 million who have died by its imposition?

Where are the Christians and Jews taking over Muslim holy sites? There aren’t any.
 
I don’t want to talk about this anymore.

Because the Muslims never think about the rights of religion of other people. Inhumane.

And you can know that we are watching now as well…the internet has been a great source of teaching us history…and we are still in shock seeing how much wrong Islam has done to other people for 1,400 years.

You should have respect for your host country to provide for you the way it does instead of undermining it.
 
None of those things were “in the USA” apart from 9/11 …
Actually quite a bit of WW2 did happen in the USA if you think of Hawaii, Guam, Midway and Alaska (among other places). There were also balloon bombs dropped on the West Coast of the US. The Cuban Missile Crisis did happen in the US as well.

But that’s beside the point.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that an Islamic cultural center with with a true focus on understanding and peace should be welcome open arms. And since it’s purpose was to promote cultural understanding, I think the site (along with the mosque) should also house a Christian chapel as well as a Jewish temple. Basically highlight the Judeao-Christian-Islamic heritage that we share (the three religions have the same roots and a lot in common) and lead by example as Muslims, Jews, and Christians all share the same site to show peace and cooperation to the world. It would be saying, “look here world, it can be done!”

It would be a very brave and bold statement to radicals of any religion that we can live in peace and respect for each other.

But I am also a bit of an idealist I think. I doubt my idea will happen.
 
None of those things were “in the USA” apart from 9/11 and that was a very minor wound. That Americans act so traumatised over it shows how secure they are. The 9/11 attacks are only significant in that they’re a very rare (maybe the only) case of an oppressed people striking an imperialist power with the kind of atrocity usually reserved for themselves. Compared to the mass of terrorist crimes perpetrated by the US over the last 50 years 9/11 wouldn’t be worth mentioning if only for that this time someone did it to the US.

The US has never experienced a real war, certainly not in the 20th Century sense. Going back further you could possibly include the Civil War, but that was still quite low intensity compared to European conflicts of the period.
The United States could destroy any country, any group, and probably any religion with the push of a button. Fortunatly for those who hate us, that thought is an abomination to us. You see, we are a fairly civilized and peace loving nation and not a bunch of barbaric goat herdrers!
 
I am all for a site that will build a bridge of tolerance and mutual understanding. This particular organization is working only from the point of promoting Islam. And the background of the imam as well as the developer are not representative of American Muslims, and their associations are militant.

It would be better if American Muslims would provide us an inter-faith site but they can’t because their lives would be endangered if they did… They are the truly humane and moderate members Islam we know and seek greater unity. They have much to offer in faith and devotion to God. Their plight of not having true freedom of speech came out immediately after after 9/11. They do not enjoy the freedom of speech the rest of us have. That is injustice suffered by American Muslims in itself and also representative of the breakdown of law and order within our own country by forces of good vs evil.

This breakdown of law and order, of the same shared values of citizenship is also what the common people are finally coming out to protest. Many have never even been engaged in the political process. It is the common people who are the recipients of dubious policies. And the common people who are patriotic and generous are the ones who are marginalized and their voice unheard.
 
None of those things were “in the USA” apart from 9/11 and that was a very minor wound. That Americans act so traumatised over it shows how secure they are. The 9/11 attacks are only significant in that they’re a very rare (maybe the only) case of an oppressed people striking an imperialist power with the kind of atrocity usually reserved for themselves. Compared to the mass of terrorist crimes perpetrated by the US over the last 50 years 9/11 wouldn’t be worth mentioning if only for that this time someone did it to the US.

The US has never experienced a real war, certainly not in the 20th Century sense. Going back further you could possibly include the Civil War, but that was still quite low intensity compared to European conflicts of the period.
Excuse me…but if what you say is true, then isn’t the way to make the world better to become more like the nation that has never suffered (as you claim we have not) than to make it suffer as much as you think you have?

The thing is, Kadaveri, destroying the nation that is safe doesn’t improve your situation. It simply multiplies the misery.
 
Actually quite a bit of WW2 did happen in the USA if you think of Hawaii, Guam, Midway and Alaska (among other places). There were also balloon bombs dropped on the West Coast of the US. The Cuban Missile Crisis did happen in the US as well.

But that’s beside the point.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that an Islamic cultural center with with a true focus on understanding and peace should be welcome open arms. And since it’s purpose was to promote cultural understanding, I think the site (along with the mosque) should also house a Christian chapel as well as a Jewish temple. Basically highlight the Judeao-Christian-Islamic heritage that we share (the three religions have the same roots and a lot in common) and lead by example as Muslims, Jews, and Christians all share the same site to show peace and cooperation to the world. It would be saying, “look here world, it can be done!”

It would be a very brave and bold statement to radicals of any religion that we can live in peace and respect for each other.

But I am also a bit of an idealist I think. I doubt my idea will happen.
Y’know, that WOULD Be a good idea.

But you are quite right. It won’t happen. The Christians would like it. The Jews would like it…the Muslims would threaten Jihad.
 
Many of the more recent posts on this thread have proven the title of SedesDomi’s thread to be most true. Read the latest posts and go back to the title of the thread. Good work SedesDomi - I mean it was brilliant. 🙂

Now at this point, this thread has become overrun with emotion, accusations and name calling. This fact considered along with the fact that Sedes let the posters prove his point for him with their own words, means it’s time for me to exit the thread. Mostly exiting because many of the posts now are just ugly. While I admire Sedes’ creativity, I am most sorry to find that there is indeed a lot of fear, mistrust, suspicion and dislike among people. THis is quite sad.

Respectfully
Sufjon
 
Many of the more recent posts on this thread have proven the title of SedesDomi’s thread to be most true. Read the latest posts and go back to the title of the thread. Good work SedesDomi - I mean it was brilliant. 🙂

Now at this point, this thread has become overrun with emotion, accusations and name calling. This fact considered along with the fact that Sedes let the posters prove his point for him with their own words, means it’s time for me to exit the thread. Mostly exiting because many of the posts now are just ugly. While I admire Sedes’ creativity, I am most sorry to find that there is indeed a lot of fear, mistrust, suspicion and dislike among people. THis is quite sad.

Respectfully
Sufjon
…and what will YOU do to help that?

In this case, regarding the mosque, don’t you think that it is the Muslim community that needs to deal with the issue here, and refrain from issuing this insult, since it is Muslim extremist terrorists who were responsible?

Why is it our fault?
 
I think there’s truth in this. I don’t have any empirical data on it but Americans do seem to be a extraordinarily fearful people;
Americans are not an “extraordinarily” fearful people. Anyway America does not have a monopoly on fear. Let’s take a look who lives in fear it’s not just America it’s the Israelis, Lebanese, Philippines, Pakistanis, Indians, Russians, Africa, Europe, Christian in Egypt and Mid-Eastern countries etc etc etc. and all of them live in fear of islamist militants. Well maybe not all live in a dreadful fear, but many have suffer and died at the hands of islamist terrorist. Still I imagine them to have some kind of fear because of persecution. But this fear is exclusively for non-moslems.

I recall an interview where an imam said that in the West Christianity failed, and the only way of controlling people (not to sin or crimes) is through fear, to make the punishment so severe that the people would live in fear of committing any crime. So the reason why islam does works according to this imam the people live in fear of being punished. But that is only an opinion of one imam on islam.
 
…and what will YOU do to help that?

In this case, regarding the mosque, don’t you think that it is the Muslim community that needs to deal with the issue here, and refrain from issuing this insult, since it is Muslim extremist terrorists who were responsible?

Why is it our fault?
Dear Friend dianaiad: What would you have me do to help that? I am not the one with the fears, nor I am the one who sees any of it an an insult. This is a challenge being faced between people who have chosen to call themselves Muslims and people who have chosen to call themselves Christians. Your God is only calling all of you His children. The fact that you all have divided one another is the handiwork of people,not the One all of you profess to be children of. Focus on that and it could all go away.
 
Sufjon,

Sorry, you need to look at the Christians in all the Muslim lands, and then you come back and let us know they overcame and now enjoy great freedom of religious expression

You are not facing reality.
 
Dear Friend dianaiad: What would you have me do to help that? I am not the one with the fears, nor I am the one who sees any of it an an insult. This is a challenge being faced between people who have chosen to call themselves Muslims and people who have chosen to call themselves Christians. Your God is only calling all of you His children. The fact that you all have divided one another is the handiwork of people,not the One all of you profess to be children of. Focus on that and it could all go away.
Sufjon, it is not I who “see the insult.” It is the Muslims who are proposing this who see it as an insult. if they were not doing so specifically as an insult, then they would have chosen another building, or another date to dedicate it.

I am not ‘fearful,’ --the odds of having Muslim extremism actually endanger me or my loved ones is pretty low. I know quite a few Muslims in my neighborhood, as well, and they share my opinions in this matter. The problem is, Muslim extremist/terrorists are all about causing fear; that’s the specific purpose OF terrorism, after all, hence the name.

The thing is, sir, we are well aware that if a Muslim nation refused to allow a Christian group to build a church near the site of a military bombing, no Christian is going to strap on a bomb vest and blow up airplanes or shopping centers in protest, killing hundreds of innocent people. No Christian group is going to issue a …'fatwa" we don’t even have a WORD for that concept.

But Muslims will. That’s not paranoia and fear–that’s fact.They have a history of doing this, a specific doctrine that encourages it, and they continue to do it, and advocated it, even as I write this. As to being ‘fearful,’ true courage isn’t measured by the absence of fear, but what you do in spite of it. A fearless man in the face of danger isn’t courageous–he’s stupid.

As to that…do you know who the truly courageous are? They are not the ‘knights’ or well armed soldiers who go into battle, well armed and armored–though they may certainly be courageous. The most courage, though, is exhibited by the guy who stays home and defends himself and his home with a pitchfork; the wife who sends her husband and children off to war and simply deals with life; the people who, in the midst of war, go fishing anyway.

People who, when they see a group about to issue an insult as utterly huge as this one would be—and made so because those who are about to make it are doing it in the full knowledge that it IS an insult–that being rather the purpose of the excercise, protest it and point out that, hey, we see what you are doing and we don’t LIKE it—

They are courageous, because they are very aware that, unlike Christians in a similar situation, Muslim extremists don’t see any problem at all with killing people who object.
 
Yesterday I was watching clips from 9/11 and it was so painful, so sad. The wound is there.

And then a report came out from Florida that now the Muslims are suing Americans because they wanted to have an El Eid (spelling) celebration on 9/11 in a movie theater – of all places, but it was already reserved ahead of them by two parties. So now they are going to sue. This is going to cost the Americans money, and they are doing this for 9/11. Time to ship them back out of the country.

Suing is 3rd jihad which is economic warfare. I have never seen such behavior in immigrants as in these. they do not intend to have good relations among Americans.

The more Muslims deny the humanity and rights of Americans and come in here to do such things, and want to erect a monument to such beliefs with this building at WTC, and then threaten us with political insecurity, this proves this crowd of militants are no good, and they are loosing much respect.

It is the bad Muslims who are defaming the good faith of decent American Muslims.

Now more facts are coming out from the imam in New York City and he has a history of inflaming terrorists.
 
Sufjon,

Sorry, you need to look at the Christians in all the Muslim lands, and then you come back and let us know they overcame and now enjoy great freedom of religious expression

You are not facing reality.
You cannot change what happens in Muslim lands. You look at where your opportunity to make change is and start there. Personally, I always like to start with me, if nothing else. What is my attitude? Does it reflect the ideals I want to see - in this case tolerance? If so, then I move on to what I say and how I act, to make sure they too are a reflection of the ideal I am hoping for. If I can do no more than that, then at least I haven’t contributed to the problem. In that case, perhaps the best you can hope for is that over time people will imitate your behavior.
 
You cannot change what happens in Muslim lands. You look at where your opportunity to make change is and start there. Personally, I always like to start with me, if nothing else. What is my attitude? Does it reflect the ideals I want to see - in this case tolerance? If so, then I move on to what I say and how I act, to make sure they too are a reflection of the ideal I am hoping for. If I can do no more than that, then at least I haven’t contributed to the problem. In that case, perhaps the best you can hope for is that over time people will imitate your behavior.
You are mistaking tolerance for being a doormat.

“Tolerance” implies that one allows and encourages others to worship freely, express themselves freely, and live their culture as they wish to. I have absolutely no problem with Muslims who wish to build mosques here, live according to their beliefs, dress the way they wish…attempt to convince me that their way is the better one…come ahead. If they have troubles coming up with funds to build mosques in which to worship, I’ll help. If I have a big enough back yard, I would donate the site.

I, like those Americans whose opinions were reflected in a recent poll, would have absolutely no problems with a mosque next door to me.

Tolerance, however, does not mean that I must remain quiet while others are being intolerant of MY beliefs and culture, and seek by violence to enforce their will upon me. “Tolerance” does not mean that I must allow others to insult and demean my own culture…and to allow them to gloat over actions that resulted in such great tragedy and loss of life.

In other words, it’s not the mosque. It is the obvious and intentional motive for building it where it is, and for dedicating it when they wish to, and will serve the purpose they intend. If they are deliberately forming an insult of this level, then how is that 'tolerance?" There isn’t any on their part in this…

So how is it desirable for anybody to show tolerance for INtolerance?
 
Sufjon, it is not I who “see the insult.” It is the Muslims who are proposing this who see it as an insult. if they were not doing so specifically as an insult, then they would have chosen another building, or another date to dedicate it.

I am not ‘fearful,’ --the odds of having Muslim extremism actually endanger me or my loved ones is pretty low. I know quite a few Muslims in my neighborhood, as well, and they share my opinions in this matter. The problem is, Muslim extremist/terrorists are all about causing fear; that’s the specific purpose OF terrorism, after all, hence the name.

The thing is, sir, we are well aware that if a Muslim nation refused to allow a Christian group to build a church near the site of a military bombing, no Christian is going to strap on a bomb vest and blow up airplanes or shopping centers in protest, killing hundreds of innocent people. No Christian group is going to issue a …'fatwa" we don’t even have a WORD for that concept.

But Muslims will. That’s not paranoia and fear–that’s fact.They have a history of doing this, a specific doctrine that encourages it, and they continue to do it, and advocated it, even as I write this. As to being ‘fearful,’ true courage isn’t measured by the absence of fear, but what you do in spite of it. A fearless man in the face of danger isn’t courageous–he’s stupid.

As to that…do you know who the truly courageous are? They are not the ‘knights’ or well armed soldiers who go into battle, well armed and armored–though they may certainly be courageous. The most courage, though, is exhibited by the guy who stays home and defends himself and his home with a pitchfork; the wife who sends her husband and children off to war and simply deals with life; the people who, in the midst of war, go fishing anyway.

People who, when they see a group about to issue an insult as utterly huge as this one would be—and made so because those who are about to make it are doing it in the full knowledge that it IS an insult–that being rather the purpose of the excercise, protest it and point out that, hey, we see what you are doing and we don’t LIKE it—

They are courageous, because they are very aware that, unlike Christians in a similar situation, Muslim extremists don’t see any problem at all with killing people who object.
If the people building this are booking it as a sign of peace and reconciliation, then I will take them at their word. Regardless of their intent, if you paint this building as a sign of reconciliation and peace and all Americans speak of it as such, then that is likely how it will be thought of as time passes. If people make a decision for example to start referring to it as “The Reconciliation Center” for example, then that is what it will become over time. You will have defeated the intent of anyone who may have built it as an insult. If you paint it as an insult, it will be an insult. As far as what might happen in other countries, you and I should focus on what happens in our country and how we act. Nothing will be settled by joining those who might be stepping down to the lowest behavior. By stepping to the higher behavior, then you have at least elevated your own being. Others may follow your example, but there will always be those who focus on lesser behavior.

If you read my other posts you will see that I don’t like nationalist identities or religious affiliations. I prefer to see just people. If you believe in God, then children of God is how I would see them. If they chose to divide themselves this way or that, I chose not to participate. If you have all of these human made identities and the divisions that follow, you will always have these situations to deal with. Look at the folks on the CAF website. Mormons fighting with Catholics, Protestants fighting with JW’s, and so on and so on. They are all Christians and they can’t even agree. Chances are they never will. They are spinning their wheels. This is how people will always act when they divide themselves, and by identifying with a man made identity, you will always be divided.

As for me, if this Mosque is intended as an insult, then I will chose to see it as an olive branch. I will make it such in my own heart and in how I speak of it. if someone intends it or speaks of it as something less, then they have denigrated only themselves.
 
You are mistaking tolerance for being a doormat.

“Tolerance” implies that one allows and encourages others to worship freely, express themselves freely, and live their culture as they wish to. I have absolutely no problem with Muslims who wish to build mosques here, live according to their beliefs, dress the way they wish…attempt to convince me that their way is the better one…come ahead. If they have troubles coming up with funds to build mosques in which to worship, I’ll help. If I have a big enough back yard, I would donate the site.

I, like those Americans whose opinions were reflected in a recent poll, would have absolutely no problems with a mosque next door to me.

Tolerance, however, does not mean that I must remain quiet while others are being intolerant of MY beliefs and culture, and seek by violence to enforce their will upon me. “Tolerance” does not mean that I must allow others to insult and demean my own culture…and to allow them to gloat over actions that resulted in such great tragedy and loss of life.

In other words, it’s not the mosque. It is the obvious and intentional motive for building it where it is, and for dedicating it when they wish to, and will serve the purpose they intend. If they are deliberately forming an insult of this level, then how is that 'tolerance?" There isn’t any on their part in this…

So how is it desirable for anybody to show tolerance for INtolerance?
If this Mosque is intended as an insult, then I will chose to see it as an olive branch. I will make it such in my own heart and in how I speak of it. if someone intends it or speaks of it as something less, then they have denigrated only themselves. Contrary to being a doormat, I have instead chosen not to allow others to define me. I have defined myself as one who chooses to walk in peace among other people. If I come to some harm because of that at some point, I am still in charge of the peace or lack of it that is in me. It is my choice. I was only passing through this world anyway. My choice is to cover the places I have been while I was here with love. That includes the 9/11 site. Others may cover it with what they will.
 
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