An honest question from a Catholic

[nbtb1348]

Since this is my first “faith alone” thread, I will approach this with some trepidation.

I will try to approach this a little differently, in a less theological way.

Imagine a timeline that starts at the instant one when one becomes a Christian and ends at death. Assume for now we are dealing with the adult believer who comes to Christ (the question of children is a little thorny although I believe the principles are the same)

Works are not a part of the equation of becoming a Christian initially at instant one. What is a part of the equation is faith in Jesus Christ and some degree of repentance.

At instant one, the believer is also regenerated. Regeneration means that one receives some level of transformation through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

After instant one (the point of conversion) to the time of death. works are absolutely necessary. However these follow regeneration and would not occur without regeneration. Thus they are viewed as a result of regeneration.

It is impossible to be regenerated and to have no change in lifestyle between the point of regeneration and death from prior to regeneration. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit transforms the believer.

You hit it right! But you know what, as simple and obvious as it is, only the Holy Spirit can show a man that.

*Romans 4–
"3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But **to him who does not work but believes ***on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”
There are only two kinds of people on the planet, my friend: Those who have seen what the cross is all about and those who haven’t.

 

[Chancellare]

Salvation is achieved through faith, which then shows itself in good deeds.

Likewise not to argue but to simpply know your thoughts on this matter:

Assuming a person is already baptized and accepts Jesus personally as his Lord and Savior, but does not believe in good deeds for some reason and shows no effort to do so, is he saved?

 

[Chancellare]

If I’m counting on my works in addition to Jesus’s sacrifice, how will I know when I am done?

Please forgive me if I’m wrong here.

To me salvation is not a fixed agreement with start-end dates and specific obligations spelled out in a ‘boiler-plate’ agreement.

I tend to follow St Paul’s way: “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” to the end.

And when is “the end”? Only God can tell. Because Christ said that we are ‘unworthy servants’ that should not expect to be seated after serving the Master his meals.

 

[nbtb1348]

Likewise not to argue but to simpply know your thoughts on this matter:

Assuming a person is already baptized and accepts Jesus personally as his Lord and Savior, but does not believe in good deeds for some reason and shows no effort to do so, is he saved?

If he is really saved, he will desire to follow Christ and obey Him. If He doesn’t, he should doubt he was ever saved and should not expect anyone else to think otherwise. Does that make sense?

 

[nbtb1348]

Please forgive me if I’m wrong here.

To me salvation is not a fixed agreement with start-end dates and specific obligations spelled out in a ‘boiler-plate’ agreement.

I tend to follow St Paul’s way: “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” to the end.

And when is “the end”? Only God can tell. Because Christ said that we are ‘unworthy servants’ that should not expect to be seated after serving the Master his meals.

First of all, Paul didn’t say “work FOR your salvation”, he said work it out, as you quoted. Second, he does in fact portray it as a “fixed agreement with start-end dates and specific obligations spelled out in a ‘boiler-plate’ agreement.”

Notice:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast."–Eph 2:8,9

*“That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”–*Rom 10:9

*"37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”–*Acts 2:37,38

*"…6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will **carry it on to completion until **the day of Christ Jesus."–*Philippians 1:6

…And there are a lot more verses like that!

 

[Crumpy]

On EWTN Scott Hahn was commenting on this frequent question, and he remarked how astounded he was in attending his first Masses. Right there, before the Communion, there was a recitation (and paraphrase of the scripture):

Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, say but the word and I shall be healed.

First, Jesus commends the centurian that he has not found such faith as this in Israel. So, this is a statement of faith commended by Jesus.

Second, we profess, every time, that we are not worthy to commune with Jesus. So, we are professing that even our works do not justify us.

The Catechism makes it clear that we are not justified by our works. Paragraph 2007 says, “With regard to God, there is no strict right to merit on the part of man.”

 

[Chancellare]

If he is really saved, he will desire to follow Christ and obey Him. If He doesn’t, he should doubt he was ever saved and should not expect anyone else to think otherwise. Does that make sense?

So that means the act of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior does not necessarily produce “desire to follow and obey” Him?

 

[emarc]

If one walks in good faith, that’s what’s important. Being anxious about refuting what somebody else says is contrary to a spirit of charity. Do not judge. I would think that we should also recall the parable of the workers in the vineyard: those who were recruited last were paid as much as those who were working all day. The same goes for the parable of the prodigal son. The Father received the scoundrel with great joy while he took the other son for granted. The point is: God is free to do as He chooses and we should be grateful for his having chosen us from all eternity to give us the gift of faith and salvation. We cannot buy God with good works, nor can we impose on Him the obligation to admit us into Heaven. We have no right to claim anything, just like the good son or the ninety nine other sheep vis a vis the wayward one.

Thanks

Matthew 17:21; “Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ONLY those who DO the will of my Father in heaven.” (do = work)
God bless.

 

[emarc]

If he is really saved, he will desire to follow Christ and obey Him. If He doesn’t, he should doubt he was ever saved and should not expect anyone else to think otherwise. Does that make sense?

the problem w/ this is we preempt God of our salvation. can you say you are saved w/ certitude? what guarantee do you have that you’ll not sin? remember the bakers, jimmy swaggart? how about judas iscariot? when we finally have to face our maker, is not God and God alone who’ll decide? in the meantime, let’s humble ourselves and obey our Lord; let’s do the will of his Father in heaven.
God bless.

 

[Chancellare]

First of all, Paul didn’t say “work FOR your salvation”, he said work it out, as you quoted. Second, he does in fact portray it as a “fixed agreement with start-end dates and specific obligations spelled out in a ‘boiler-plate’ agreement.”

You don’t understand the meaning of a ‘boiler-plate’ agreement. If you do, you would have known that they are miscellaneous clauses that protect a business in the event of a lawsuit.

In your case, your ‘salvation by faith alone’ is not assured because there are other counter -provisions like:

• James 2:24 which says NOT BY FAITH ALONE.
• Eph 2:10 which says we are… created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God prepared in advance, that we should live in them.
• James 2:14 which says: What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
• James 2:17 which says: So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
  -“And a lot more like that!” - to paraphrase you on that.
  So your faith alone has no ‘boiler-plate’ provision, my friend because these bioler-plates support the "faith and good works’ intent of Paul’s gospel.!.

 

[LutheranDK]

Likewise not to argue but to simpply know your thoughts on this matter:

Assuming a person is already baptized and accepts Jesus personally as his Lord and Savior, but does not believe in good deeds for some reason and shows no effort to do so, is he saved?

The question is valid

I would ask what Jesus he believes in. It certainly is not the Jesus we read about in the Bible, and therefore, he is not a Christian at all → not saved.

 

[nbtb1348]

You don’t understand the meaning of a ‘boiler-plate’ agreement. If you do, you would have known that they are miscellaneous clauses that protect a business in the event of a lawsuit.

In your case, your ‘salvation by faith alone’ is not assured because there are other counter -provisions like:

• James 2:24 which says NOT BY FAITH ALONE.
• Eph 2:10 which says we are… created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God prepared in advance, that we should live in them.
• James 2:14 which says: What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
• James 2:17 which says: So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
  -“And a lot more like that!” - to paraphrase you on that.
  So your faith alone has no ‘boiler-plate’ provision, my friend because these bioler-plates support the "faith and good works’ intent of Paul’s gospel.!.

It’s just so silly that you don’t get that. Those verses do not in any way change the fact that God puts the power and desire to do good works into the believer at the moment of salvation! It is why Paul says, “We have received a spirit of ADOPTION…so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter (the letter of the law that’ll get you if you blow it!)”-Rom 8

If Chevy makes a new truck and rolls it out onto the street, it better run properly and feel good, or it won’t be used. But it is still a truck! And in fact Chevy puts into the truck what it needs to run well. It’s all about the Maker, my friend.

So then yes, if there aren’t those good works, guess what…you’ve never been born again. Ask the Holy Spirit to show this to you if you struggle with it. You’ll be able to sing ‘Amazing Grace’ like you never have before!

 

[With_Questions]

The issue here is that regeneration produces a gigantic internal change in the believer.

It is impossible for this internal change not to have some type of impact on external lifestyle.

 

[willingheart]

the problem w/ this is we preempt God of our salvation. can you say you are saved w/ certitude? .

Yes, because that is what Jesus told us. If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth, you are saved. (Not can be, or might be, if you do enough good.) If salvation depends in any part on our works, and if God will still decide our salvation based on those works, then why did Jesus die on the cross? What value was there in His sacrifice, if there is still more for us to do? And, as I’ve asked before, how much is enough?

Maybe a difference in thinking is this: In the church I grew up in, I used to hear that Christ died for our sins - our sins. I believed that, but I still thought that maybe I wasn’t good enough to go to heaven, and how would I know? When I finally understood that Christ died for my sins, in my place, for my redemption, it clicked. (Max Lucado makes the point that even if you were the only one, He still would have done it.) Maybe you all got that already, but that’s what made the difference to me. For anyone interested, it was Lucado’s book, He Chose the Nails, that helped me understand that point.

what guarantee do you have that you’ll not sin?

None whatsoever. Even Paul lamented doing things he did not want to do and not doing the things he should do. Yet, don’t we believe he was saved? I’ve heard it said that believers are not “sinless” they just “sin less.” It is a lifelong process of refinement. I’ve heard it compared to a new field. At first, the farmer goes in with big equipment and removes the really big boulders. Then he can go through with some workers and a truck to remove by hand the smaller rocks that are in the way of the plough. Then the plough can turn over the ground to reveal other rocks, and the workers go through again, and again, until the field is prepared. It’s how God works in our hearts. Who cannot testify to this in their own life? If we are not constantly being changed, then we have to ask why.

I agree with other posters who’ve said that works are a natural expression of God’s love within us. A true change of heart toward God and away from self, must express itself outward. Are there some who will profess belief but not really believe? Yes. But remember - man looks on the outer appearance, and God looks at the heart. He knows the difference.

 

[w_stewart]

Nice to finally have a thread on this that is not baiting

The heart of the matter is not IF we should do good works, because we SHOULD. You’re right in saying that Scripture leaves no doubt as to that. The question is, however:

WHY should we do good works? Should we do good works IN ORDER TO be saved, or BECAUSE we are saved?
I say the latter, because I believe that it is what the Bible teaches:

Salvation is achieved through faith, which then shows itself in good deeds. The passage from James which is normally used against Sola Fide was written into an entirely different context. It was written to people who said something like this:

“If we’re saved by faith, then good works are irrelevant, and we don’t need to do good” = treating Christendom as another kind of Greek philosophy which was intellectually challenging, but without practical applications.
It is THIS heresy which James rebukes, and rightly so. He is not challenging Sola Fide; he is rebuking the abuse of it to lawlessness.

Then how could you explain the words of St. Paul exhorting us to “work out [our] salvation”?

Philippians 2:12

12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

 

[Aaron409]

There is no way anyone knows if they are truly saved. Thats pretty much it. I know of protestants that have have long since forgot about their faith and commit many of sins without ever thinking twice about it. To me the protestant faith seems like an easy cop out. Sorry to offend anyone. Seems to me Jesus was crucified and would expect more than me just saying I accept you as my savior and thats it.

 

[LutheranDK]

There is no way anyone knows if they are truly saved. Thats pretty much it. I know of protestants that have have long since forgot about their faith and commit many of sins without ever thinking twice about it. To me the protestant faith seems like an easy cop out. Sorry to offend anyone.

Nice rhetorical trick. Say something rather insulting, and then trying to weasel out of it by saying “sorry to offend anyone”.
Well, two can play that game:

“To me, Roman-Catholicism seems like legalism, pharisee’ism and neo-paganism. Sorry to offend anyone.”

Seems to me Jesus was crucified and would expect more than me just saying I accept you as my savior and thats it.

Have you even READ what has been said on this forum?
No one has said that Christians should not do good. Can you understand that the question is WHY should we do good - in order to be saved, or because we ARE saved?

 

[Aaron409]

I understand it very welll thank you. I was only making a point. If you feel the need to cut me down go right ahead. I wont even get into it with you tho cause your just looking to fight. Have a lovely day. God Bless.

P.S. try RC without a bias

 

[LutheranDK]

I understand it very welll thank you. I was only making a point. If you feel the need to cut me down go right ahead. I wont even get into it with you tho cause your just looking to fight. Have a lovely day. God Bless.

P.S. try RC without a bias

I’m not looking to fight. I just get annoyed when the discussion can’t move on, because it continually gets pulled back to square one with false claims.

I also hope it was clear that I did not MEAN what I said (“the RC church is neo-paganism”) - I was trying to show you an equivalent to your statement.

 

[Aaron409]

Apology accepted, and sorry to you too. All I was saying is it seems like the easy way out. Seems like your free to do as you want because your already saved. Thats just my opinion. Probably cant word it the best but i try. To me the catholic church shows you the ways of doing good works and when you fail you can go humble yourself before the lord in reconcilation. Then get up and keep on putting in your time and good deeds, with hope and prayers to be saved until the end. Thats all and once again im sorry.