An Observation

[MacDaddy]

That’s fine. We honor Mary as imitators of Christ.

He honored His mother before we did.

Mary’s Magnificat is the perfect example of true worship for any Christian.

 

[MacDaddy]

If you were not making an allusion to the Rosary (in a thread that is supposed to be about prayer to Mary and the Saints), then please forgive me for anticipating a common argument/attack.

I accept you apology. I have not gotten to much into the Marian theology and I know very very little about the rosary, its purpose and practice, but I will get there eventually. I have seen mother Angelica with a group of nuns reciting it over and over on the Catholic channel. I believe she died not to awful long ago. Capori I can listen to more than any other spokesperson; he has a lot of practicality to holy living. I may have misspelled his name.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I accept you apology. I have not gotten to much into the Marian theology and I know very very little about the rosary, its purpose and practice, but I will get there eventually. I have seen mother Angelica with a group of nuns reciting it over and over on the Catholic channel. I believe she died not to awful long ago. Capori I can listen to more than any other spokesperson; he has a lot of practicality to holy living. I may have misspelled his name.

I understand that Marian doctrines are particular difficult for Protestants; however, rightly explained and understood, I think they should give you no difficulties.

Please let me know if you have any specific questions, and I’ll be happy to answer as best I can and to link you to good articles.

God bless.

 

[MacDaddy]

Some prayer is worship. Other forms of prayer include thanksgiving, intercession, listening or simply talking to God.

Not all of that is unique to communication with God as an omniscient, omnipresent being.

Catholics worship God alone, and you know this. Therefore, to suggest otherwise is to bear false witness against your brothers and sisters in violation of the ninth commandment.

I won’t argue or debate this point with you because I have come and reviewed the terminology of how Catholic schoalars define worship and you alluded to earlier with latria, dulia and hyperdulia, which the latter is invented w/o historic origin. All I can say is God reads the hearts of men and women accurately and He will decide what is worship and what is not; for me I prefer to be on the side of caution, but that is me and we all see things somewhat differently.

 

[MacDaddy]

Funny after reading your posts, especially this one you must have ignored this.
Matthew 7:1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."

Funny those Catholic specks are rather tiny compared to your plank.

Your charity is overwhelming and thanks for the blessing. That is one of the most misunderstood passages in all of Scripture and you have shown it through ignorance of the Scripture. I don’t take any offense; I just assume you are not who you say you are or you are a newborn in Christ. We are all at different places in our walk with the Lord and the key is to continue to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord as Peter commanded.

God bless you brother.

MacD

 

[MacDaddy]

Well, if you are overwhelmed, why not ask some honest questions and listen to the answers from the forum members. We’re actually cute, cuddly and eager to explain our faith. Well, the eager part, any way.

catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/

Cool, thanks for the link; are there even older ones that you can find? I would like those as well…thanks again. Cute and Cuddly :gag: just joking

 

[Randy_Carson]

Cool, thanks for the link; are there even older ones that you can find? I would like those as well…thanks again. Cute and Cuddly :gag: just joking

See post #219 above.

 

[MacDaddy]

I understand that Marian doctrines are particular difficult for Protestants; however, rightly explained and understood, I think they should give you no difficulties.

Please let me know if you have any specific questions, and I’ll be happy to answer as best I can and to link you to good articles.

God bless.

When I get there I will send you an email and ask for a link or you can provide one and send to my email. thanks

 

[Lutheranteach]

Here is a Lutheran Missouri Synod perspective on intercession of saints:

youtube.com/watch?v=n2FOGZ_X_cw&feature=related

 

[Padrej]

Where is the church in chapter 6 of Revelation? Was what was written in the seals added as they opened or being written in after being open? What is actually being asked? How much longer before you wrap it up?

Psalms 9:11-13
11 Sing praises to the LORD, who dwells in Zion; Declare among the peoples His deeds. 12 For He who requires blood remembers them; He does not forget the cry of the afflicted. 13 Be gracious to me, O LORD; See my affliction from those who hate me, You who lift me up from the gates of death,

So you are now saying that the “saints” that are mentioned there ARE NOT the Church when numerous times in the NT the church is also referred to as “Saints”??? I can assume from your response that in the Book of Revelation that those who come out of the great tribulation is also not the church as well?

Does your church sing the hymn “The Church’s one Foundation”??? If you do, did you miss the verse about “the Saints their watch are keeping their cry goes up, “how long” and soon the night of weeping shall be the morn of song.” But then I can see from your listing of who you are you list yourself as only Baptized as a Catholic as an infant. Does that man you are now Agnostic to make such responses that are so ignorant of such simple Biblical principles.

Oh it is true that God hears the cry of the afflicted, because he is hearing our cry’s of anguish for you from your response. Be well assured that we will be praying for you to find your way to the truth.

 

[Padrej]

Your charity is overwhelming and thanks for the blessing. That is one of the most misunderstood passages in all of Scripture and you have shown it through ignorance of the Scripture. I don’t take any offense; I just assume you are not who you say you are or you are a newborn in Christ. We are all at different places in our walk with the Lord and the key is to continue to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord as Peter commanded.

God bless you brother.

MacD

HOW can you say that this is one of the most misunderstood passages of scripture? A Baby Christian can understand that one, and that is my purpose in posting to you. I am not say that you are one, but your fruits show by your posts “brother” I am just calling it as I see it. You seem to have no problem at all at pointing out others faults at all. That is why I posted the Matthew 7 passage to give you a friendly reminder as a “bother in Christ” that we are not supposed to be acting in that manner.

I do pray that you continue to grow too as we all do.

 

[Padrej]

catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/trentc.htm

EXCELLENT POST!!!

 

[Dancelittleewok]

MacDaddy said:

Are you an obedient Catholic? Your church clearly defines worship and it is a matter of the degree, higher for God, then Mary , then saints, stautes, relics etc.

And:

Really doesn’t matter what you call it; what matters is what will God call it? Is it a violation of the first or second commandments? I don’t know with certainty; do you?

Randy said in reply:

Ever heard of a synonym? Doesn’t matter what I think of it; it is not God who will judge?

And:

I won’t argue or debate this point with you because I have come and reviewed the terminology of how Catholic schoalars define worship and you alluded to earlier with latria, dulia and hyperdulia, which the latter is invented w/o historic origin. All I can say is God reads the hearts of men and women accurately and He will decide what is worship and what is not; for me I prefer to be on the side of caution, but that is me and we all see things somewhat differently.

My observation is:

1. MacDaddy knows that Catholics worship God alone as seen with Randy’s post, the Catholic Encyclopedia he referenced and his own admission.
2. Yet he persists in saying that the honor given to Mary and the saints is a synonym even though Catholics don’t believe so.
3. He says God can read the hearts of men (which He can) in regards to worship and wants to err on the side of caution.

My questions for MacDaddy:

1. You know Catholics worship God alone and the saints and Mary don’t receive the same (as seen in the distinctions you’ve referenced), then why say that dulia and hyperdulia are the same thing?
2. God can read the hearts of men. Do you presume to know Catholics hearts when they ask for Mary’s intercession?

 

[LittleSoldier]

That was her point to the Catholic posters; she is the mother of Jesus the God-man, but not Mother of God with the capital “M”. In fact Mother of God seems blasphemous because the implication is that she birthed God. She gave birth to Jesus, who was already God.

It is not blasphemous. If anything is blasphemous it is your implication that the blessed mother of Jesus should not be honored. As Jesus is God, Mary is the mother of God. She is not divine - she is not worshipped. Worship is reserved only for God. If one worships another than God, that person is not following the First Commandment.

Jesus loved and loves His mother. He followed the Ten Commandments as every good Jewish person did. The fourth Commandment tells us to honor our father and our mother. Jesus honored His mother.

We should be as Christ-like as we can be. We follow the example of Christ and honor His mother. As Jesus made Mary our mother when He was on the cross, we honor her as both Jesus’ mother and our mother.

Mary is not God. She never claimed to be. Yet she asked her Son, Jesus, to perform His first miracle and He did so in honor of her. Mary should always be treated as her Son treated her, with love, respect, and honor.

To not honor Mary, Jesus’ mother, shows a blatant lack of respect for the most holy person that ever lived. Mary never sinned which is only proper as she carried God incarnate and gave birth to Him.

If you want to show respect to Christ, you must do as He did - honor His mother. If you refuse to show love to one Jesus loves so much, you are turning your back on Jesus Himself.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Fair Lady has dodged a number of my questions as well. She has stated a number of times that the Bible tells us WHAT TO DO and then goes on to state things that are not in the Bible (different “realms”, that it’s OK asking living people to pray for us to God but once they die you can’t, not asking angels for their assistance or for them to pray to God for us, and so on).

Fair Lady has not been able to give any one iota of proof that any of that is either definitively stated in the Bible, alluded to in the Bible or prohibited in the Bible. Thus, the things she has claimed are not scripturally supported and since they are not scripturally supported they are simply her own opinion which leads to a sticky wicket – what makes her opinion correct vs. her pastor’s vs. the member at the church down the street vs. any other person interpreting scripture to the beat of their own drum?

I know. What bother me the most is the link she provided which referenced sola scriptura. If she is adding to Scripture, according to what I read on her own link, she is in big trouble as she will be receiving a number of plagues. That’s what happens to people who add to scripture (according to the link). So I hope Fair Lady gets used to locusts, etc. because they just might be paying her a visit.

I am somewhat frustrated (though not surprised) that she cannot see the contradiction. She says we, as Catholics, shouldn’t pray to Mary because it isn’t Scriptural, yet she herself believes in things which aren’t covered in Scripture, and it doesn’t make any difference what you do. She doesn’t believe she is contradictory and bordering on hypocrisy and she doesn’t want to believe it so she won’t. Plain and simple.

For some reason Catholics are supposed to play by different rules. It’s OK for Fair Lady to do the things she does (adding to scripture and believing things not present in scripture) yet it’s not OK for Catholics to do the same thing.

And she doesn’t see this!!

But maybe some lurkers who have followed the thread will have the capacity to understand. We don’t know why Fair Lady believes as she does. We don’t even know what church she belongs to, if any (unless she mentioned it and I missed it).

I feel very blessed to be Catholic and I’m sorry that I left the Church and that it took so long for me to return. I have never been happier than I am now, as a Catholic, who prays to Mary and the saints.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Again, I believe that I have stated my position adequately. I think that there is such a vast difference in our foundational premises that we hold to, that we would need to begin all over again to make sense of any of this. The bottom line as far as this thread goes is that I believe that praying to Mary and saints that have gone before us is error and so far no one has been able to come up with scripture to prove otherwise.

You add to Scripture, you believe in things which are not stated in Scripture, then you say Catholics are wrong to do exactly what you do.

Do you understand our frustration??

 

[LittleSoldier]

Why not just ask if I am a JW or Mormon?

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. What do you want me to do, ask you if you are a:

Jehovah Witness
Mormon
Methodist
Lutheran
Anglican
Baptist
Presbyterian
Seventh Day Adventist
Buddhist
Muslim
Hindu
or a member of one of the other many churches??

 

[LittleSoldier]

As you see, Jesus says “Father…” not “Abraham”; neither “Moses”; neither “Elijah”, who was a man that ascended in Heaven. If we can’t pray to a man we are sure that he’s alive and in Heaven, what makes you think you can pray to the dead, or asleep? We can’t pray to Enoch who was a man who walked with God, and then later God took him with Him. If we can’t pray to Enoch, a man that walked with God and we know he’s alive, what makes you think we can pray to the saints that are dead (asleep)? There were people greater than Mary and the saints, but He tells us to pray to God. If we can’t pray to people that were greater than Mary and the saints, why should we pray to them? Why don’t pray to Enoch and Elijah, whom at least you are sure that they are alive? The saints are dead, but you know that Enoch and Elijah never died, and you don’t pray to them. You don’t pray to them, who are alive, but pray to the saints, who are dead. Jesus didn’t tell us to pray to them so you must pray to God only.

That doesn’t answer my question. Telling me that I can only do what Jesus specifically tells me to do in the Bible is ridiculous. Where does it say such a thing in the Bible?

What you quoted from her speaks for itself. If He would’ve wanted us to pray to her and the saints, He would’ve told us. If He doesn’t want us to pray to Elijah or Enoch whom we’re completely sure that they’re alive, I suppose He doesn’t want us to pray to asleep people neither.

Where does it say in Scripture that we must only use Scripture?

If the Holy Spirit can be infallible through the bishops and papacy, couldn’t He speak infallible words through her as well? You say she’s contradicting herself, but you are as well.

She isn’t claiming infallibility, nor am I. I am asking why she thinks it’s OK to add to Scripture and to do things that aren’t in Scripture but it’s wrong for Catholics to do the same thing.

The Catholics can believe in whatever they want. You can keep traditions as long as they don’t interfere with God’s Word and work.

Actually I can keep traditions even if they do interfere with God’s Word and work. That’s because I have a special gift from God. You have it, too. It’s called free will.

But that has nothing to do with my point to Fair Lady. She is saying that she can add to Scripture and believe in things which do not appear in Scripture, but it’s wrong for Catholics to do that.

And your authority… where does the Catholic authority come from? I could tell you but you’d be offended.

Yeah. You’re telling me how I’m going to react to something you might say. Wow!! Isn’t that a bit, uh, presumptuous? But that is not my point. My point is that Fair Lady is telling me that, as a Catholic, I can’t do things that are not in Scripture, but Fair Lady can.

Jesus didn’t tell us not to pray to Enoch of Elijah either, but I see no one praying to them: them, who are alive! But you are praying to some dead people who can’t hear you and neither think or anything like that; all they do is wait for Jesus.

Mary is dead?? Gee, I thought that those who pass and are in heaven are alive in Christ. How do you know these people “I pray to” are dead? How do you know they can’t hear me? How do you know they can’t think or “anything like that?” (Actually I am quite interested in what you mean by “anything like that”). How do you know “all they do is wait for Jesus?” How do you even know who I pray to?? But, again, that is not my point. My point is that Fair Lady is telling me that it is wrong for Catholics to do things that are not in the Bible, but that it’s OK for Fair Lady to do them.

Because it contains teachings based on the the rest of the Bible?

That doesn’t answer the question at all. That’s a circular argument.

Tell me one thing that is very important in spiritual matters, and that’s not in the Bible.

Moot. Not my point. My point is that Fair Lady is saying that Catholics are wrong for doing things not in Scripture, but it’s OK for Fair Lady to do so.

Tell me something absolutely reliable for our own salvation that’s not in the Bible.

Moot. Not my point. My point is that Fair Lady is saying that Catholics are wrong for doing things not in Scripture, but it’s OK for Fair Lady to do so.

If it is not covered in the Scripture, then it is not necessary to your own salvation. She has wisdom which surely God gave her: that is the source of her authority.

Where does it say in the Bible that Fair Lady’s wisdom (or that of any other mortal) is the source of authority for relying on things which are not in the Bible?

By the way, what do you mean by tradition?

I mean the tradition started by Christ, given to Peter by Christ and carried on down through the succession of bishops - the same tradition that gave us the Bible itself.

My point is not that the Bible is bad or wrong. The Bible is a document penned by men who were inspired by God. My point is that it is OK to use more than the Bible. I’m not saying you have to use more than the Bible - it might very well be sufficient for you. My point is that telling me that, as a Catholic, it is wrong to believe in things and do things which are not present in Scripture, is contradictory when the person telling me that is herself believing in things which are not present in Scripture.

 

[Fair_Lady]

The challenge, Fair Lady, is that the passage you quote from 2 Timothy does not teach the sufficiency of scripture. This ground was covered in detail in Patrick Madrid’s debate with James White back in the 90’s. Sorry, but the Greek just doesn’t support your position here.

Since you’re overwhelmed with posts and pressed for time, I’ll cut to the chase: despite every effort by evangelicals, professional apologists and scholars to come up with a verse that proves sola scriptura, it has never been done because the Bible simply doesn’t teach this “tradition of men”.

I’d ask you to read a few pieces of scripture below and then tell me if you still consider that sola scriptura as “tradition of men”.

Luke 11:28
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

John 8:46-48 (New King James Version)
46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; …”

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Ephesians 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

1 Thessalonians 2:13
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

1 John 2:5
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Revelation 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Revelation 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

This is why we Catholics love to send newbies off on this snipe hunt.

So that’s what you call it. And then for the hunted to remain unmoved from the truth and firmly planted in the word must be a bit of a downer.

In the end, after much searching and frustration, you’ll be forced to admit (to yourself at the very least if not to us) that the Bible does not teach sola scriptura. And at that point, you’ll be faced with a choice: continue on in the Protestant tradition that you now know is built upon sand or turn to the one, true Church built upon the rock, Peter, by Jesus Christ Himself.

The rock on which I stand is Jesus Christ.

You’re probably a couple of years away from this point, but seeds of doubt are already planted. You’ll feel uncomfortable for awhile, angry perhaps, maybe scared. But eventually you will tell God that you’ll follow Him wherever He leads…even if He leads you to Rome.

I’m closer to heaven than to Rome, thanks.

We’ll be waiting to greet you.

In heaven or in Rome?

 

[Randy_Carson]

In heaven or in Rome?

If you want to get on the right train, you’ve got to go to the right station first.