Ancestry.com and the Mormon Church

  • Thread starter Thread starter JustaServant
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
All the Angels believe in God - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Whether they accept the love of the Trinity or not is another story.

In general, aside from moroni, the fallen angels can tell you 99 truths in order to slip in 1 lie that can do so much damage. The Church has always scrutinized “angels of light”.
 
HonoraDominum said:
No, you have shown nothing. You have repeatedly stated that if Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith, and then started that as your argument. I have repeatedly stated that for that to have any relevance to the next part of the section, you have to first prove to me that Moroni existed at all. You have yet to do this, because it cannot be done.
Click to expand...
Since we know that “IF” Moroni visited Joseph Smith that his message was from God, it gives reason and responsibility to those who want to know the truth to find out about Moroni for themselves. Thank you all for the stimulating discussion, and God bless you all.
 
mtolympus said:
Yes.
Click to expand...
Mormons could convert the whole world if they could show that the two ancient civilizations existed in north america. :rolleyes: There should be all kinds of evidence, not just bones of people, horses and chariots but also remains of their ancient civilizations. We can readily excavate the aztecs, Egyptians and chinese to name a few. If Mormons can not find this ancient civilization…and they can’t, it proves that the religion is a made up story of which Moroni is just one fictional character. :eek:

Imagine if you grew up your whole life in a closet. That’s all you knew. Then one day you set foot outside of not just the closet, but out of the house and into the world. How different that would be. What you assume to be true was in error and the truth was completely different. 🤷
 
mtolympus said:
Since we know that “IF” Moroni visited Joseph Smith that his message was from God, it gives reason and responsibility to those who want to know the truth to find out about Moroni for themselves. Thank you all for the stimulating discussion, and God bless you all.
Click to expand...
We know nothing of the sort. We’ve already discussed how many people declare that they have the truth of Christ, and they are absolutely bonkers. We’ve also proven how any entity who came to Joseph Smith that may have been supernatural in origin was not proclaiming the biblical Christ, but a redefined non-biblical fictional creation, thus rendering your argument invalid. We’ve also established that the “if” part of this discussion is a moot point before the existence of Moroni has been proven, which has not happened because it is impossible to prove the existence of a man who did not exist.

I again challenge you to pray to God that you may know Him as He truly is. Beg Him to lead you to the sources that will show you His truth, His way and His light. God loves you and will not fail you if you ask with a sincere heart and a pure desire. May the light of Christ lead you to His infinite and perfect love.
 
mtolympus said:
Since we know that “IF” Moroni visited Joseph Smith that his message was from God, it gives reason and responsibility to those who want to know the truth to find out about Moroni for themselves. Thank you all for the stimulating discussion, and God bless you all.
Click to expand...
Again, we do not KNOW that Moroni, if the fable is true, comes from God.

it is like you want to play baseball, but you get to start from second base while the rest of us start from home plate.
 
mtolympus said:
Since we know that “IF” Moroni visited Joseph Smith that his message was from God, it gives reason and responsibility to those who want to know the truth to find out about Moroni for themselves. Thank you all for the stimulating discussion, and God bless you all.
Click to expand...
Hmmmm…If you had the proof…why would not gladly share it…point to it…broadcast it to all the world…so as so silence everyone on here…and those all over the world…who question the existence or truthfulness of Moroni…and the Mormon faith…so how about it…gladly share it.

But with your reaction above…you are instead, shifting the burden on others…instead of you meeting the challenge and proving yourself correct and have the true faith…you instead do an end run…🤷

Anyway…I gather Moroni was a prophet…so how did he become an angel?

Even canonized Catholic saints do not become angels…as taught and believed by the CC…they have the attributes of angels…as stated in Matthew’s gospel.

Well…if indeed Moroni was a real angel…he just violated this passage from the Bible…1John 4…6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

How could he say or write anything contrary to what had been given/handed down to the Apostles?
 
mtolympus said:
HonoraDominum;9466002:
That one can be explained in the New Testament, too.

The Bible also gives us a sure test that we may know if an angel is from God:

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. (1 John 4:1-2)
Click to expand...
“And I, Moroni, will not deny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life.” (Moroni 1:3) These words were written in about A.D. 420 as Moroni, one of the last living Nephites, fled the Lamanite armies. The record, which he delivered into the hands of Joseph Smith, was a witness that Jesus Christ is
the Son of God, that he did come in the flesh and that through his atonement, all who come to him in obedience may be saved.

“Hereby know ye the Spirit of God.” According to John’s test, the visit of Moroni was of God.

Hmmmmm…seems you are missing some the later part of that passage…Verse 6…
6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Aside from… Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God…v6 also goes with it…whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us.

In Gal 1 and 2, Paul submitted to the Apostles…Peter in particular…and was ordained and sent…in Acts 13.

So, which Apostle did Moroni listen or submit to?

Here is another Bible test…Romans 10…15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]

So, who sent Moroni? How can you prove based on rom10,v15…who sent Moroni?
Click to expand...
 
Porknpie said:
Mormons could convert the whole world if they could show that the two ancient civilizations existed in north america. :rolleyes: There should be all kinds of evidence, not just bones of people, horses and chariots but also remains of their ancient civilizations. We can readily excavate the aztecs, Egyptians and chinese to name a few. If Mormons can not find this ancient civilization…and they can’t, it proves that the religion is a made up story of which Moroni is just one fictional character. :eek:
Click to expand...
That’s right. All the LDS Church needs to do is excavate the area around the Hill Cumorah in New York. That is the only Book of Mormon site that the LDS Church knows the exact location of. Since hundreds of thousands of people died in two huge battles there, you should be able to find a treasure-trove of archaeological evidence of the battles and the civilizations those armies came from.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
 
PaulDupre said:
That’s right. All the LDS Church needs to do is excavate the area around the Hill Cumorah in New York. That is the only Book of Mormon site that the LDS Church knows the exact location of. Since hundreds of thousands of people died in two huge battles there, you should be able to find a treasure-trove of archaeological evidence of the battles and the civilizations those armies came from.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
Click to expand...
And the fact that the Mormon church does not evacuate this site shows that the leadership knows that in fact, no battle ever took place and that the whole story is made up. The religion is a lie and the Current Mormon leadership - no longer Joseph Smith, are leading people astray. This is lies built upon lies. :frighten:

It truly is like living your whole life in a closet, not knowing that the real world is outside the door. The funny (sad) thing is that Mormons can hear all the voices outside the door, and they can even see light coming underneath the door, but they still hesitate in opening the door to see the truth. :banghead:

:coffeeread:
 
PaulDupre said:
That’s right. All the LDS Church needs to do is excavate the area around the Hill Cumorah in New York. That is the only Book of Mormon site that the LDS Church knows the exact location of. Since hundreds of thousands of people died in two huge battles there, you should be able to find a treasure-trove of archaeological evidence of the battles and the civilizations those armies came from.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
Click to expand...
I have been saying that for years
 
So let me throw out a hypothetical. Let’s supose the LDS church invited independent researchers to examine the Hill Cumorah and the area around it. Suppose they found hundreds of bones dating back to 400 AD. What would you do?
 
Janderich said:
So let me throw out a hypothetical. Let’s supose the LDS church invited independent researchers to examine the Hill Cumorah and the area around it. Suppose they found hundreds of bones dating back to 400 AD. What would you do?
Click to expand...
Read the reports from the archaeologists.

What would you do?
 
Janderich said:
So let me throw out a hypothetical. Let’s supose the LDS church invited independent researchers to examine the Hill Cumorah and the area around it. Suppose they found hundreds of bones dating back to 400 AD. What would you do?
Click to expand...
Well, technically, it would need to be more than bones - there would need to be evidence of a battle, at least featuring one of the unique artifacts mentioned in the bible that other archeological evidence claims did not exist before the European settlers landed (horses, steel, etc.).

However, I have seen evidence to my satisfaction that Joseph Smith was a lying convicted con man who took Masonic rituals and turned them into “hidden” Temple ceremonies for the purpose of cheating on his wife. I have seen the primary sources that talk about how Smith tried to gently introduce his wife to the concept of polygamy, and when she threw a fit, he pretended to rip up the documents but continued to be "sealed’ to other women, many whom were underage or already married to other men. I have seen the changes in the “most perfect book known to Man” from the first edition to today that fundamentally changes the nature of Jesus Christ and the essentials precepts of the Trinitarian gospel. And in my lifetime, I have seen words changed in the Book of Mormon, in the Pearl of Great Price, and in the temple ceremony. I have also seen the LDS church do a complete about face in the racist practice of not allowing blacks to hold the LDS priesthood and other racist practices.

While I do not have time to research all of these claims and provide links, I guarantee you that with a little Googling, you can find backup documentation to everything said below, as well as ex-Mormons who will be more than happy to testify that they, too, were taught as I was of the things below when they were Mormon.

I distinctly remember being taught as a child that Nephites and Lamanites were the forefathers of the Native American tribes. I remember singing “Book of Mormon Stories” complete with the Feathers in the Hair hand gestures behind my head. Since leaving the church, I have seen multiple scientific studies that show that the DNA of every tribe tested shows to be mongoloid (Asian) in origin and in no way Jewish. Not one Jewish gene could be found among the tribes tested. I then saw the Mormon church first say that not all of the Native Americans desended from the Jewish settlers, then eventually that we just haven’t discovered the true legacy of the Lamanites. Or some such silliness.

I remember being taught that when dark-skinned Native Americans joined the LDS church, their skin became “White and delightsome”, just as the Nephites who repented and followed God’s laws. And now those same phrases say “pure and delightsome” and the racist undertones behind those phrases has been completely whitewashed from the Mormon catechisis for both children and adults.

For me to ever believe in the Book of Mormon, it’s going to take archeological evidence as solid as the evidence that abounds of the true nature of Joseph Smith, of his history as a con man and a liar and a man who wrapped adultery with the sow’s ear of “Celestial Marriage.” And I’ve seen a LOT of that, so there’s going to have to be some pretty serious undisputable evidence before I’ll even entertain the idea.

However, I think I can say with full confidence that 100,000 Barney skins will be found at the Hill Cumorah before a single shred of evidence of the characters of a fictitious book will appear. I’ve seen Barney costumes, with their purple fur and big dinosaur heads, and while they may be amazingly ridiculous, I truly believe them to exist. I cannot say the same of Nephites or Lamanites. They are simply ridiculous.
 
Janderich said:
So let me throw out a hypothetical. Let’s supose the LDS church invited independent researchers to examine the Hill Cumorah and the area around it. Suppose they found hundreds of bones dating back to 400 AD. What would you do?
Click to expand...
See what the experts said. If their reports supported the Book of Mormon claims, I would have no choice other than to re-look the issues.

A better question is…if they found NOTHING…what would YOU do?
 
HonoraDominum said:
Well, technically, it would need to be more than bones - there would need to be evidence of a battle, at least featuring one of the unique artifacts mentioned in the bible that other archeological evidence claims did not exist before the European settlers landed (horses, steel, etc.).

…For me to ever believe in the Book of Mormon, it’s going to take archeological evidence as solid as the evidence that abounds of the true nature of Joseph Smith, of his history as a con man and a liar and a man who wrapped adultery with the sow’s ear of “Celestial Marriage.” And I’ve seen a LOT of that, so there’s going to have to be some pretty serious undisputable evidence before I’ll even entertain the idea.

However, I think I can say with full confidence that 100,000 Barney skins will be found at the Hill Cumorah before a single shred of evidence of the characters of a fictitious book will appear. I’ve seen Barney costumes, with their purple fur and big dinosaur heads, and while they may be amazingly ridiculous, I truly believe them to exist. I cannot say the same of Nephites or Lamanites. They are simply ridiculous.
Click to expand...
HonoraDominum, It sounds like even a mountain of evidence would not convince you. This is the problem with such extreme disbelief it always demands more evidence.

At the end of the day evidence supports belief but it does not create it. This is why I find it so incredible that people of faith, such as yourself, demand extreme evidence from the LDS. The Lord has never worked based primairly on evidence and I suspect he never will.
 
TexanKnight said:
See what the experts said. If their reports supported the Book of Mormon claims, I would have no choice other than to re-look the issues.

A better question is…if they found NOTHING…what would YOU do?
Click to expand...
Wow TexanKnight, a fair answer. I would then ask why a 500+ page book written by these same people. (A book for which no satisfactory author has been found, except as I’ve described it) Does not cause you to re-look at the issues?

If nothing was found I could make no conclusion either way. “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” But evidence is not about proof or certainty. It is simply something that contributes to belief. Truth comes from the Holy Ghost and is given to a person as he honestly seeks it through prayer and faith.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top