Anger towards the Church is so SAD!

[CopticChristian]

The** Catholic Church with it’s authoritative office, the papacy, is the big dog. None of these also-rans have a chance to be the big dog until one of them can take down the big dog**.

It’s tough bein’ th’ big dawg on the porch!

This would be the Body of Christ…The real big dog is the head against whom as noted in Revelation prevails and cannot be taken down…

 

[jmoneyideas]

jmoneyideas, purchase for your own private collection; but don’t be afraid to share, Father Baron’s 10 series (5 DVD set) on Catholicism and also buy AND READ the book of the same title. You WILL see the historical beauty and the richness of the Catholic Doctrine and Father Baron comments about the times the Church has “slipped.” I too am a recent convert to the Catholic Church after 18 years of independent reading, research and personal inquiry. Father Barron’s work finally sealed the deal for me to become a full Catholic. Our Church is over two thousand years old and imperfect sinful human beings have been entrusted to lead. Does this make the Church as commanded and headed by Christ imperfect? No! The Church is ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC. There has always been and always will be anger and opposition to Christ’s Church. Where does He say that “If the world hates you it is because it hated me first.” Our Church is the mirror to the evil in the world and evil does not like to see itself in the mirror. There is also much misunderstanding about how the Church develops and arrives at its doctrines. Such development can take years with tremendous debate, struggle, and of course prayer. I don’t think the anger will ever cease but when face with the anger, meet it with calm and love (Father Barron gives an excellent treatise on this in Episode Two) and always remember, our Church will takes some hits from the world and sometimes from within but remember that Christ’s promise is sure, “The gates of Hell shall not prevail” against His Church.

Amen, Thanks for your insight my friend. Father Barron really sealed the deal for me as well.

 

[Kristin234]

Kristin234;8652537:

It is difficult to get stats for the world. These are USA stats. Roy is in the USA and discusses the benefit of liberal thinking in the USA. This is the way of the USA and liberal thinking.

Today Protestants are not the majority…as you know they are falling behind the 50% mark…

I agree that Protestants are not the majority in the world, definitely not, but there are more Protestants than Catholics in the US. That is why I am saying it is unfair to use numbers like that because since there are more Protestants than Catholics the numbers will be higher…especially since many people who claim they are a certain faith do not really follow it.

 

[Roy5]

RE COPTIC ORTHODOX AND POLLS RESULTS

**CopticChristian**. I haven't asked you about Coptic Protestants, who are a small group. All I know about them is that Presbyterians founded the American University in Cairo - and another by that name in Beirut. Now, why do you seem so reluctant to respond to my request. What do you think of the Coptic Orthodox, the large majority of Christians in Egypt? Do you accept their belief that St. Mark was their first Pope? How do you view their present Pope?

** As for those polls**. 30% of Jews divorce. 21% of Catholics. 25% of Protestants. I'm not surprised that a little higher percentage of Protestants divorce, since divorce and remarriage is not regarded as such a sin among Protestants. But the difference isn't that great.

 **As for abortion,** I am shocked, and assume you are, also. Protestants divide on it. Many feel that abortions are not evil under certain circumstances and done early enough. Catholicism teaches that abortion always is a major sin. However (if I read the polls numbers correctly) since the Protestants are roughly 52% of the population and have only 37.4% of the abortions they apparently have abortions much less often (percentage-wise) than Catholics who are about 24% of the population but have 31.5% of the abortions. Hm! Any explanation you can think of? The Jewish percentage roughly matches their proportion of the population 1.3% - 5 million of 300 million inhabitants.

 **Premarital sex:** about the same: Catholics, 63%; Protestants 65%. Note that this 65% averages in Black Protestants where the percentage is 83%. So, apparently white Protestants are 'more pure' (as Catholic priests like to say) than white Catholics. Premarital sex is a relative thing (in my view). The trend of teenagers and college students to engage in rampant sex is not good, of course. I feel differently, for example, about engaged couples. It's their private business.

** By the way, it’s high time that Catholic priests and nuns** should have the option to marry if they choose to. Marriage is a gift of God. The Lord’s first commandment in the Bible is ‘be fruitful and multiply’ I’m blessed with a family and know that many priests would make fine husbands and fathers.I also believe that it would attract more hale and healthy men and will cut down on pedaphile problems…

 **As for sexual abuse by clergy **, bear in mind that Protestant ministers outnumber Catholic priests in the USA at least 6-7 to 1. There are over 300,000 Protestant clergy in the country. So the Protestant figure re abuse reports is much, much lower than the Catholic figure percentage-wide.

 **On the other hand, I don't know what any of this proves**. Sin abounds, and definitions of sin abound, too. I don't judge a church that much by such criteria. I am more interested in that church's beliefs, practices, and the freedom it permits parishioners to think for themselves - something I personally need.

** I’m still waiting to hear your comments on the Coptic Orthodox.**When I was in Egypt I was surprised to find that there were so many of them, and my prayer is that they can get through this transition in that ancient land in good health and happy.
God bless everybody.

 

[CopticChristian]

RE COPTIC ORTHODOX AND POLLS RESULTS

**CopticChristian**. I haven't asked you about Coptic Protestants, who are a small group. All I know about them is that Presbyterians founded the American University in Cairo - and another by that name in Beirut. Now, why do you seem so reluctant to respond to my request. What do you think of the Coptic Orthodox, the large majority of Christians in Egypt? Do you accept their belief that St. Mark was their first Pope? How do you view their present Pope?

** As for those polls**. 30% of Jews divorce. 21% of Catholics. 25% of Protestants. I'm not surprised that a little higher percentage of Protestants divorce, since divorce and remarriage is not regarded as such a sin among Protestants. But the difference isn't that great.

 **As for abortion,** I am shocked, and assume you are, also. Protestants divide on it. Many feel that abortions are not evil under certain circumstances and done early enough. Catholicism teaches that abortion always is a major sin. However (if I read the polls numbers correctly) since the Protestants are roughly 52% of the population and have only 37.4% of the abortions they apparently have abortions much less often (percentage-wise) than Catholics who are about 24% of the population but have 31.5% of the abortions. Hm! Any explanation you can think of? The Jewish percentage roughly matches their proportion of the population 1.3% - 5 million of 300 million inhabitants.

 **Premarital sex:** about the same: Catholics, 63%; Protestants 65%. Note that this 65% averages in Black Protestants where the percentage is 83%. So, apparently white Protestants are 'more pure' (as Catholic priests like to say) than white Catholics. Premarital sex is a relative thing (in my view). The trend of teenagers and college students to engage in rampant sex is not good, of course. I feel differently, for example, about engaged couples. It's their private business.

** By the way, it’s high time that Catholic priests and nuns** should have the option to marry if they choose to. Marriage is a gift of God. The Lord’s first commandment in the Bible is ‘be fruitful and multiply’ I’m blessed with a family and know that many priests would make fine husbands and fathers.I also believe that it would attract more hale and healthy men and will cut down on pedaphile problems…

 **As for sexual abuse by clergy **, bear in mind that Protestant ministers outnumber Catholic priests in the USA at least 6-7 to 1. There are over 300,000 Protestant clergy in the country. So the Protestant figure re abuse reports is much, much lower than the Catholic figure percentage-wide.

 **On the other hand, I don't know what any of this proves**. Sin abounds, and definitions of sin abound, too. I don't judge a church that much by such criteria. I am more interested in that church's beliefs, practices, and the freedom it permits parishioners to think for themselves - something I personally need.

** I’m still waiting to hear your comments on the Coptic Orthodox**.When I was in Egypt I was surprised to find that there were so many of them, and my prayer is that they can get through this transition in that ancient land in good health and happy.

 God bless everybody.

Wait until after we finish a healthy dialogue concerning Veritatis Splendor.

 

[CopticChristian]

**CopticChristian **

** Why you thank me after throwing a molotov cocktail in my direction is a mystery - like much theology**. Obviously, when a dialogue moves from issues to insults I guess it’s time to stop dialoguing. I’m agreeable to that, though I do enjoy reading your posts because they certainly set forward a strong defense of traditional Catholicism. But you seem very, very displeased when challenged.

** A couple concluding points**. Perhaps you have plenty of time to read lengthy encyclicals and the huge amount of other material that interest you. I get five newspapers a day, plus four monthly Catholic periodicals (plus Our Sunday Visitor), and many others, and this past week - for example - I purchased three new books (including the 2012 World Almanac, which is both informative and time-consuming). You attack me because I confessed that I read JPII’s encyclical rapidly. Sorry about that. I also participate in a wide variety of community activities and give attention to family concerns. Besides, I saw nothing in the encyclical which was new. I followed JPII and his pronouncements rather closely. Etc. It looks to me as though you want to disengage and/or demean me. Fine. No problem. Your choice.

 ** Oh, and I also like to watch certain things on TV, including EWTN and such programs as "Sunday morning" on CBS.** Did you happen to see it this morning? The first segment was about that hospital in the West  - is it St. Joseph's in Phoenix, my memory is quite fallible? - the hospital which permitted a medical abortion because the medical profession there believed that a prolonged pregnancy meant the death of both mother and baby. A nun on the hospital ethics committee agreed. She was excommunicated. The diocese de-certified the hospital as Catholic, etc. The pregnant woman, as I recall has four other young children - to me an important factor.

 **Question for you.** Do you feel that the medical abortion under those circumstances should not have been performed? Do you agree with the excommunication of the nun and the de-certification of the hospital? (I understand that in exchange for her resignation from the ethics committee her excommunication has been lifted.) If you would have opposed the medical procedure and approve of the excommunication, you are a stellar traditionalist Catholic. My guess is that the large majority of American Catholics would say that that particular abortion was sad but moral. I would take that position myself. One has to consider what the mother's death would mean to those four children and their grieving father. As for the baby, God will provide eternal joy and peace. Limbo seems to be out now.

** By the way, I keep waiting to hear your answer to my questions about the Coptic Orthdox Church to which most Egyptians Christians belong?** I guess I don’t understand why that presents a problem. It isn’t everyday that I am in touch with a Coptic Roman Catholic (you’re the only one I know of) and I am interested in how you assess that church and the overall situation in Egypt. I try my best to follow religion of all kinds in all parts of the world. A special interest of mine. Besides, I’ve visited Egypt and Coptics there. Religion, of course, could be a force for good in the world instead of adding to fierce tribalism and discrimination such as we witness in Egypt and elsewhere. I certainly don’t want the beloved Christianity I embrace to become anything like Islamic extremism.

** God bless you anyway**. Christ encouraged us to love our ‘enemies’, which I assume includes those who seem to choose that designation. Hope I haven’t caused you too much aggravation and I apologize if I have. I will continue to pray that religion becomes a bridge rather than a barrier. My guess is that you agree with that but believe that that will happen only when the world becomes Roman Catholic. True, or an exaggeration on my part?

Roy,

Today at Mass there were over 300 people, small group, as it was an evening Mass. There were three Baptisms, everyone sang, the worship was alive, almost everyone went to Communion…there were families, youngsters, teens and the priest delivered a wonderful homily charging everyone to go out and serve the Lord. I checked our bulletin and noted that each week we have new members…the interesting thing is that it is not just individuals it is families…here is the list from September…

Welcome
TO OUR NEW PARISHIONERS….
Marcel, Nicole, Eliana & Fiora Abarca
Laurie Allen
Aaron, Stephanie & Emma Brading
Garth, Rebecca, Lyla & Bennet Bostic
Eileen Colone
Richard & Gilberte Douglas
Jonathan, Robin, Aidan & Isabella Gellman
Laurie, Michael & Lucas Iosue
Monique & Jacob Lewis
Ron, Sebrina, Matthew & Olivia Martinez
Megan Plichta
Marcos & Carmen Radonic
Troy, Cecilia & Amber Riski
Casey, Jennifer, William & Nicholas Romijn
Andrew Sterkowitz
Eric, Jennifer, Ethan & Katelyn Swenson
David, Michelle, Isabella & Myles Zipser

Can you imagine what it is like to go a Church where right down the street is a Protestant non-denominational ecclesial community advertising for membership…and this is true…a big Billboard saying “a church for those that don’t like church”…and across the street is an ecclesial community making themselves available as “hiking to the lord”…these communitiews are in strip malls…empty, sad…and I think many of them are coming to our Church to see why the walls are bulging, the music is great and why there is always so much traffic congestion…the OHCAC…wow it’s great…

 

[Whadyamean]

Anger against the Church comes from a number of directions, what Bishop Sheen said being a mild gloss. Mahatma Gandhi said it rather well: “I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians; they are so unlike your Christ.” So while some do resent the Church for no less reason than they believe themselves to have a superior interpretation to that of the Church of the ministry of Jesus and of Paul, many are aware of the history of the Church and its actions from about the third century on to contemporary times. It is not a pretty picture, as I’m sure you know.

First, welcome home!!

The Catholic Church with it’s authoritative office, the papacy, is the big dog. None of these also-rans have a chance to be the big dog until one of them can take down the big dog.

It’s tough bein’ th’ big dawg on the porch!

Yes, and when you have a dawg, it can be a dawgma.

 

[Kismetji]

So I am a new Convert and I have been doing all my reading and studying I can since starting my Journey into the Church. It really saddens me about all the Anti-Catholic things that are out there from other Denominations and Atheist ect. I mean literally just a second ago I came across a Video of a Preacher at some church Bashing the head of a Statue of Mary. The wrath and Hate Filled speech coming from this man and his congregation was so troubling. I then decided to continue my Journey on Youtube which is anti pretty most all Christianity but I will tell you the Hate towards the Church is so sad in my eyes.

Then I think back to a comment from Archbishop Fulton Sheen “There are not a hundred people in America who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church — which is, of course, quite a different thing.”

What is so sad is more towards fellow Christians. Having So Called church leads preaching hate is a serious detriment and completely off base from what Christ died for. Sorry to be ranting but it really bothered me. I have known many Catholics through out my years and have a hard to recalling anything of the sort from them. I highly doubt you will find anything of the Sort on Youtube as well.

I think hatred towards institutions is sometime justified - and in fact healthy.

 

[Roy5]

** CopticChristian.** You don’t have to tell me that there are thriving Catholic parishes. I go to Mass at one nearby. Still, an estimated 30 million Catholics have left the church, and the Protestant churches in this area are full of ex-Catholics. One local priest indicates that about 20% of those registered in his parish attend Mass regularly. Considering that missing Mass is still regarded as a sin (unless sick etc) that is not a good sign. I recall when nearer 80% were at Mass each Sunday morning (before vigil Masses were held).

 But I await your comment on the Coptic Orthodox, who are the vast majority of Coptic Christians in Egypt. You seem to be reluctant to do that. If so, why? Surely not because you don't have a full answer. 

 I also know that these Coptic Orthodox are numerous in Ethiopia and Eritrea, though I'm not sure how they are connected to the Coptic Pope in Egypt, if at all. I do know that the Coptic Christians along with several other middle eastern churches claim to go back to the very origins of the church and can express resentment that, in their view, the Papacy in Rome claims to be in charge of the entire church - an assertion they fiercely reject.  

 As for the other issues which I raised or to which I responded, reply or not, as you wish. I'm not interested in knocking Catholicism. However, I am interested in seeing it adopt pressing reforms, permit priests to marry, provide women with more authority within the church, allow greater room for genuinely free expression and interpretation, put less emphasis on ancient and medieval traditions that are antiquated baggage and not essential, and show less hostility toward fellow Christians, especially Protestantism which seems to be a favorite target of yours.   

 God bless everybody.

 

[CopticChristian]

** CopticChristian.** You don’t have to tell me that there are thriving Catholic parishes. I go to Mass at one nearby. Still, an estimated 30 million Catholics have left the church, and the Protestant churches in this area are full of ex-Catholics. One local priest indicates that about 20% of those registered in his parish attend Mass regularly. Considering that missing Mass is still regarded as a sin (unless sick etc) that is not a good sign. I recall when nearer 80% were at Mass each Sunday morning (before vigil Masses were held).

 But I await your comment on the Coptic Orthodox, who are the vast majority of Coptic Christians in Egypt. You seem to be reluctant to do that. If so, why? Surely not because you don't have a full answer. 

 I also know that these Coptic Orthodox are numerous in Ethiopia and Eritrea, though I'm not sure how they are connected to the Coptic Pope in Egypt, if at all. I do know that the Coptic Christians along with several other middle eastern churches claim to go back to the very origins of the church and can express resentment that, in their view, the Papacy in Rome claims to be in charge of the entire church - an assertion they fiercely reject.  

 As for the other issues which I raised or to which I responded, reply or not, as you wish. I'm not interested in knocking Catholicism. However,** I am interested in seeing it adopt pressing reforms**, permit priests to marry, provide women with more authority within the church, allow greater room for genuinely free expression and interpretation, put less emphasis on ancient and medieval traditions that are antiquated baggage and not essential, and show less hostility toward fellow Christians, especially Protestantism which seems to be a favorite target of yours.   

 God bless everybody.

You must wait and have patience for change. You must think about changing your mind. This is Veritatis Splendor. I discuss nothing until we complete a dialogue on Veritatis Splendor…Patience…

 

[Nicea325]

CopticChristian. You don’t have to tell me that there are thriving Catholic parishes. I go to Mass at one nearby. Still, an estimated 30 million Catholics have left the church, and the Protestant churches in this area are full of ex-Catholics. One local priest indicates that about 20% of those registered in his parish attend Mass regularly. Considering that missing Mass is still regarded as a sin (unless sick etc) that is not a good sign. I recall when nearer 80% were at Mass each Sunday morning (before vigil Masses were held).

And what do you brag about statistics? Salvation is not based on surveys and stats.

As for the other issues which I raised or to which I responded, reply or not, as you wish. I’m not interested in knocking Catholicism. However, I am interested in seeing it adopt pressing reforms, permit priests to marry, provide women with more authority within the church, allow greater room for genuinely free expression and interpretation, put less emphasis on ancient and medieval traditions that are antiquated baggage and not essential, and show less hostility toward fellow Christians, especially Protestantism which seems to be a favorite target of yours.

Key words: **I am **interested. Protestanism always seems to be about “me-myself-and I” and not Christ-centered. As I said Protestanism is so full of secularism and relevatism. Christianity is not about what you want and or how to tell God how to reform His church for our selfish agendas. The CC has conducted many reforms and by the way,there are married priests in the Eastern rites.

 

[Roy5]

Nicea325

** Well, yes, it seems to be true.** Protestantism is inclined to be more individualistic. I think it was Weber who even traced capitalism to the Reformation. Not sure this is valid, but that’s what he wrote years ago.

   **My chief problem with the traditional Catholicism of my (literal) fathers is that it doesn't allow for serious dissent.** You have to believe each and every 'infallible' doctrine or you're not an authentic Catholic. In that respect it resembles totalitarianism - fascism, communism, etc. - which also demanded complete conformity. Centuries ago the Church could enforce this conformity by executing heretics. No longer true, praise God.

** Much of evangelical Protestantism is the same**. It demands that followers abandon independent thinking and believe what they are told by their church and/or preacher.

** I have been attracted by mainline Protestantism because the churches seem more relaxed about such things. **Believe in the devil? Fine. Don’t believe in the devil? Fine, too. Believe in the ten plagues in the time of Moses? Fine. Doubt that they happened? That’s okay, too. This shows respect both for freedom of thought and for the God-given human brain, I also happen to support the marriage of priests (if they choose) and the ordination of women, at least as Deacons. Pope John Paul II, as I understand it, didn’t even want such issues discussed any longer. There is something seriously wrong about this.

** We’re in the 21st century, no longer in the Middle Ages.** Why doesn’t the Church understand that freedom is part of our modern world? Centuries ago people were poorly educated, most of them illiterate. They were superstitious, easily frightened by threats of hell, and could be led around by the Church. That time has passed. People demand the right to think for themselves. They also have trouble, for example, believing in many of the wild miracles attached to varuous saints. They see these as primitive superstitions, perhaps suitable to another era, but no longer believable.

** God bless everybody**. Let us make religion a bridge rather than a barrier. Let us permit people to weigh and examine, research and conclude, accept or reject. They will not always agree on doctrines and practices, but that’s okay. God doesn;t judge us by such things anyway. Re-read Matt. 25 plus the parable of the Good Samaritan to understand the entrance requirements into eternal life.

 

[Nicea325]

Nicea325

** Well, yes, it seems to be true.** Protestantism is inclined to be more individualistic. I think it was Weber who even traced capitalism to the Reformation. Not sure this is valid, but that’s what he wrote years ago.

   **My chief problem with the traditional Catholicism of my (literal) fathers is that it doesn't allow for serious dissent.** You have to believe each and every 'infallible' doctrine or you're not an authentic Catholic. In that respect it resembles totalitarianism - fascism, communism, etc. - which also demanded complete conformity. Centuries ago the Church could enforce this conformity by executing heretics. No longer true, praise God.

** Much of evangelical Protestantism is the same**. It demands that followers abandon independent thinking and believe what they are told by their church and/or preacher.

** I have been attracted by mainline Protestantism because the churches seem more relaxed about such things. **Believe in the devil? Fine. Don’t believe in the devil? Fine, too. Believe in the ten plagues in the time of Moses? Fine. Doubt that they happened? That’s okay, too. This shows respect both for freedom of thought and for the God-given human brain, I also happen to support the marriage of priests (if they choose) and the ordination of women, at least as Deacons. Pope John Paul II, as I understand it, didn’t even want such issues discussed any longer. There is something seriously wrong about this.

** We’re in the 21st century, no longer in the Middle Ages.** Why doesn’t the Church understand that freedom is part of our modern world? Centuries ago people were poorly educated, most of them illiterate. They were superstitious, easily frightened by threats of hell, and could be led around by the Church. That time has passed. People demand the right to think for themselves. They also have trouble, for example, believing in many of the wild miracles attached to varuous saints. They see these as primitive superstitions, perhaps suitable to another era, but no longer believable.

** God bless everybody**. Let us make religion a bridge rather than a barrier. Let us permit people to weigh and examine, research and conclude, accept or reject. They will not always agree on doctrines and practices, but that’s okay. God doesn;t judge us by such things anyway. Re-read Matt. 25 plus the parable of the Good Samaritan to understand the entrance requirements into eternal life.

Roy,
No offense but it seems that you are out to prove a personal agenda or to have others agree with your sentiments? Again, Christianity is not about “me-myself- and I” and what I say it should be. Precisely why Protestanism is an array of flavors and “free-thinking” individuals making up their own God.

 

[CopticChristian]

Nicea325

** Well, yes, it seems to be true.** Protestantism is inclined to be more individualistic. I think it was Weber who even traced capitalism to the Reformation. Not sure this is valid, but that’s what he wrote years ago.

   **My chief problem with the traditional Catholicism of my (literal) fathers is that it doesn't allow for serious dissent.** You have to believe each and every 'infallible' doctrine or you're not an authentic Catholic. In that respect it resembles totalitarianism - fascism, communism, etc. - which also demanded complete conformity. Centuries ago the Church could enforce this conformity by executing heretics. No longer true, praise God.

** Much of evangelical Protestantism is the same**. It demands that followers abandon independent thinking and believe what they are told by their church and/or preacher.

** I have been attracted by mainline Protestantism because the churches seem more relaxed about such things. **Believe in the devil? Fine. Don’t believe in the devil? Fine, too. Believe in the ten plagues in the time of Moses? Fine. Doubt that they happened? That’s okay, too. This shows respect both for freedom of thought and for the God-given human brain, I also happen to support the marriage of priests (if they choose) and the ordination of women, at least as Deacons. Pope John Paul II, as I understand it, didn’t even want such issues discussed any longer. There is something seriously wrong about this.

** We’re in the 21st century, no longer in the Middle Ages.****] Why doesn’t the Church understand that freedom is part of our modern world? **

Centuries ago people were poorly educated, most of them illiterate. They were superstitious, easily frightened by threats of hell, and could be led around by the Church. That time has passed. People demand the right to think for themselves. They also have trouble, for example, believing in many of the wild miracles attached to varuous saints. They see these as primitive superstitions, perhaps suitable to another era, but no longer believable.

** God bless everybody**. Let us make religion a bridge rather than a barrier. Let us permit people to weigh and examine, research and conclude, accept or reject. They will not always agree on doctrines and practices, but that’s okay. God doesn;t judge us by such things anyway. Re-read Matt. 25 plus the parable of the Good Samaritan to understand the entrance requirements into eternal life.

The Church does understand that. That is Veritatis Splendor…true freedom…The Church wants you to be truly free…are you ready to dialogue about this?

 

[jmoneyideas]

Roy5 : I have been attracted by mainline Protestantism because the churches seem more relaxed about such things. Believe in the devil? Fine. Don’t believe in the devil? Fine, too. Believe in the ten plagues in the time of Moses? Fine. Doubt that they happened? That’s okay, too. This shows respect both for freedom of thought and for the God-given human brain, I also happen to support the marriage of priests (if they choose) and the ordination of women, at least as Deacons. Pope John Paul II, as I understand it, didn’t even want such issues discussed any longer. There is something seriously wrong about this

Roy my friend you are very wishy washy. I don’t want to come off as mean or insensitive and if I do sorry, but what the heck do you BELIEVE. I mean this is the core issue with the 30,000 various protestant denominations. There is no Catholic (universal) theory behind your statement. God called us to be one, not thousands upon thousands of different opinions and ideas. I will admit that there is certain issues that are hard for some to understand in the RC Church, some of which I will be asking in RCIA but really your ideas remind me of a hippy movement of the 60’ s and 70’s except its referring to the Church and not America this time. I don’t want to come off as harsh but are your really a Christian, I mean some of these statements lead me to believe that you really are not. Interpretation of the Bible is one thing that the reformation spreader to the masses but even to make a statement about understanding the doubting of certain things in the Bible like Satan or the 10 plagues of Moses should have my Non Catholic friends raising there eyebrow.

 

[jmoneyideas]

LOL now its time for the REST of THE STORY… I am with you on this one

 

[CopticChristian]

Nicea325

** Well, yes, it seems to be true.** Protestantism is inclined to be more individualistic. I think it was Weber who even traced capitalism to the Reformation. Not sure this is valid, but that’s what he wrote years ago.

   **My chief problem with the traditional Catholicism of my (literal) fathers is that it doesn't allow for serious dissent.** You have to believe each and every 'infallible' doctrine or you're not an authentic Catholic. In that respect it resembles totalitarianism - fascism, communism, etc. - which also demanded complete conformity. Centuries ago the Church could enforce this conformity by executing heretics. No longer true, praise God.

** Much of evangelical Protestantism is the same**. It demands that followers abandon independent thinking and believe what they are told by their church and/or preacher.

** I have been attracted by mainline Protestantism because the churches seem more relaxed about such things. **Believe in the devil? Fine. Don’t believe in the devil? Fine, too. Believe in the ten plagues in the time of Moses? Fine. Doubt that they happened? That’s okay, too. This shows respect both for freedom of thought and for the God-given human brain, I also happen to support the marriage of priests (if they choose) and the ordination of women, at least as Deacons. Pope John Paul II, as I understand it, didn’t even want such issues discussed any longer. There is something seriously wrong about this.

** We’re in the 21st century, no longer in the Middle Ages.** Why doesn’t the Church understand that freedom is part of our modern world? Centuries ago people were poorly educated, most of them illiterate. They were superstitious, easily frightened by threats of hell, and could be led around by the Church. That time has passed. People demand the right to think for themselves. They also have trouble, for example, believing in many of the wild miracles attached to varuous saints. They see these as primitive superstitions, perhaps suitable to another era, but no longer believable.

** God bless everybody**. Let us make religion a bridge rather than a barrier. Let us permit people to weigh and examine, research and conclude, accept or reject. They will not always agree on doctrines and practices, but that’s okay. God doesn;t judge us by such things anyway. Re-read Matt. 25 plus the parable of the Good Samaritan to understand the entrance requirements into eternal life.

Roy,

Thursday of this week is the feast of the Immaculate Conception…Our priest told us that on Thursday there would be Mass at 7am, 9am, noon and 6 pm…Can you imagine how many people will be there? The priest is able to know that when there are feasts it is like a Sunday and there have to be more Masses…because of past experience…He has real insight. .by the way at the Mass on Sunday, everyone was joining in the changes of the new missal…it was projected on the wall…I saw many people with missals in their hands, many with summaries and I don’t have one…I have to get one…I heard everyone so excited about the changes and jumping right on board…Wow…it is great to go to a Church where everyone shares the same ideas and has the same enthusiasm…it is great…

 

[jmoneyideas]

Roy,

Thursday of this week is the feast of the Immaculate Conception…Our priest told us that on Thursday there would be Mass at 7am, 9am, noon and 6 pm…Can you imagine how many people will be there? The priest is able to know that when there are feasts it is like a Sunday and there have to be more Masses…because of past experience…He has real insight. .by the way at the Mass on Sunday, everyone was joining in the changes of the new missal…it was projected on the wall…I saw many people with missals in their hands, many with summaries and I don’t have one…I have to get one…I heard everyone so excited about the changes and jumping right on board…Wow…it is great to go to a Church where everyone shares the same ideas and has the same enthusiasm…it is great…

AMEN brother, Universally accepted by everyone. This is what I love about the Catholic Chruch. I will be attending my first Feast of the Immaculate Conception. So excited!

 

[jmoneyideas]

So my Friend and old Pastor of the Non Denom Church I went to until 6 weeks ago when I decided to join the RC finally got the real news, that I was not just missing Church but that I have been attending Mass instead. He saw my facebook post about me being so excited to attend RCIA and he was a bit shocked. I figures he knew since we had been having Theological debates back and forth. As some one that I looked upto as a friend and mentor in my walk with Christ I was a bit taken back by his comment after I explained to him, he said " Interesting…I’ll pray for Wisdom and That you come to the true Knowledge of the Saving Grace of Christ" which seemed kinda like I am so clueless or maybe i am reading into it to much, I just replied back that I was so excited…I sent him a text and email and no response, sad how this is so DIVISIVE by so many.

 

[Roy5]

The responses I get seem to fall mainly into two categories.

  (1) Those who regard what I am saying as an **egotistic exercise**. It's all about me. This is common reply. When someone challenges the status quo it's easy to use the ad hominem argument, aiming at the person and his ascribed motives rather than at the argument.

  (2) **What do you believe, anyway**? My whole point is to permit more flexibility when it comes to the doctrines and practices of the Church. What I believe as an individual is far less important than belonging to a Church that allows independent thinking.

** One illustration. The Immaculate Conception**. Now, here is a doctrine which isn’t found in scripture, was not universally observed in the Church until 1476, and was not defined until 1864 (if I recall the year correctly). If people can and wish to accept it, no problem. However, Catholics today are not illiterate peasants and are becoming increasingly uncomfortable being told what they must accept.

 I have a major problem with a dogma like the Immaculate Conception. Why? To begin with, and most important, I'm inclined to **doubt the whole concept of original sin **and certainly don't take the story of Adam and Eve literally.  Is there sin in conception per se?  Or, is it part of the plan of God - a divine gift, if you will? I tend to believe the latter. 

  Personally, I don't have the answers to many theological questions, but why should I? I am not God nor do I find it easy to believe that any Church is God. A study of church history shows that **doctrines came about in large part through political maneuvering** by various factions over the years. One heresy after another was oppressed. Arians. Adoptianists. Modalists. Monophysites. Nestorians. Gnostics. Pelagians. Albigensians. Hussites. Waldensians. Many more. Many were slaughtered as a result.  

 There seems to be plenty of evidence - for example - that **Mariology became more and** **more elaborate** as the centuries moved along. This is not to demean Mary in any way. Being the mother of Christ certainly merits our love and devotion. But I wonder if the Church has gone too far, perhaps influenced by the culture in which women deities played a major role. I suspect that Mary, a woman of great humility, is troubled by the level of veneration today.

  **God bless everybody.** Let's work to make religion a bridge and not a barrier. We can begin that process by permitting more freedom of belief on some of the issues that divide us. Mariology is one area where more flexibility should exist.