Anglicans to Rome - Thread 2

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Fr Ambrose:
Large metropolitan areas can divided into several dioceses.
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Fr. Ambrose:

In Anglicanism, we used to have a “Suffragete” Bishop UNDER the Diocesan Bishop who acted as that Diocisan’s assistant. A very large area could be assigned more Assistants, each assistant being assigned a Jurisdiction.

So the Diocese of LA had a Diocesan and at least 1 Sufragete who was his assistant. Plus, because the retirement age was so young, 65 or 70, there was alway sa retired Bishop available to send to Confirmations and the like when neither of the Actives were available.

When I was confirmed, Bishop Goodin was a 97-year old retired Bishop called on to do the confirmation because none of the actives were available.

Or, as Fr. Ambrose said, an Archdiocese can also be fuurther broken down into Dioceses as is the Archdiocese of LA. But that still hasn’t created the situation where most Catholics get to meet their Bishops at least once every two or three years, which I believe to be optimal. As I’ve said, I’ve seen mine twice and spoken to two 3 others (including Abp. Hepworth) and that’s in 17 months.

Blessings and Peace, Michael
 
**
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rjs1:
Traditional Anglican has been arguing for the possibility of being received by the Catholic Church, while not accepting several doctrines.
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**
I merely used some of his own words about stubborness to point out that, if he is calling Catholics stubborn because they insist on full acceptance of the Church’s teachings as a condition of entry, then surely those who keep wanting entry on their own terms instead of the Church’s terms could also be considered stubborn.

**## That is certainly how it looks - and it’s a bit odd to complain of Catholic stubbornness when the TAC could also be accused of being stubborn toward other Anglicans. **

**If the TAC is right to be uncompromising on certain issues - why deny Catholics the same freedom, to be uncompromising on certain issues ? **

**If the TAC is allowed to be uncompromising in its rejection of the ordination of women, Catholics must be allowed to be uncompromising insisting on the acceptance of all Catholic dogmas. The TAC regards rejection of that as important - but Catholics also regard certain things as no less important, of which the rejection of that is but one. **##
 
Traditional Ang:
I think that a lot of the LIBERALS are actually afraid that some of the people you described will start attending the Anglican Catholic Church. What they don’t realize is that Canon Law would make that very difficult unless they officially changed Rites.

What I would be more afraid of is that some people would start demanding something more like the Anglican Missal in their own Parishes.

Blessings and Peace, Michael
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Actually, a Catholic can attend the services of any rite. If Latin Catholic wanted his or her child baptized in another rite, there would be problems. But there is no bar on attending services.

Irenicist
 
Matt:

The Vatican has negotiated with the TAC since 1994, and has invited TAC Bishops to join them both on the retreat before and for the Summer Meetings of the College of Bishops. That tells me that the Vatican doesn’t hold your position. The Catholic Archbishop-Ordinary of Pittsberg held a reception for the reception for the consecrated TAC Bishops Moyer and Chislett. It appears that he also doesn’t agree with you about the status of the TAC.

It appears that you’re out of step with your own Hierarchy on this issue - I suggest that you take this up with them…I’m not arguing about this anymore with you.
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Matt16_18:
You are still insisting that the Anglicans belong to a church in the proper sense of the term. I believe that Rome sees the TAC as a Protestant ecclesial community with invalid sacraments. Michael Thoma has implied that Rome might think that the TAC are really closet members of the PNCC, but that is just being silly.
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Regarding your insistance on the use of the term, “Protestant” for those the Second Vatican Council describes as “Seperated Brethren”:

DEI VERBUM - CHAPTER VI - SACRED SCRIPTURE IN THE LIFE OF THE CHURCH - Article 22

…And should the opportunity arise and the Church authorities approve, if these translations are produced in cooperation with the separated brethren as well, all Christians will be able to use them.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

**LUMEN GENTIUM - CHAPTER VIII - THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY, MOTHER OF GOD IN THE MYSTERY OF CHRIST AND THE CHURCH

IV. The Cult of the Blessed Virgin in the Church, Article 67**

*…Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church./]

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM - INTRODUCTION - Article 2

…(5) under which the scattered children of God may be gathered together (6), until there is one sheepfold and one shepherd (7).

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

Matt, has what you’ve done over the last two weeks served to bring me and those in the TAC who might have been sitting on the fence closer to the Church or driven us away? What do you think the effect has been on those who were undecided who were reading what you had to say and how you said it?

GAUDIUM ET SPES - CHAPTER V - THE FOSTERING OF PEACE AND THE PROMOTION OF A COMMUNITY OF NATIONS - SECTION II: Setting Up An International Community Article 90

…Finally, it is very much to be desired that Catholics, in order to fulfill their role properly in the international community, will seek to cooperate actively and in a positive manner both with their separated brothers who together with them profess the Gospel of charity and with all men thirsting for true peace.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html

GAUDIUM ET SPES - CHAPTER II - THE COMMUNITY OF MANKIND Article 28

…But it is necessary to distinguish between error, which always merits repudiation, and the person in error, who never loses the dignity of being a person even when he is flawed by false or inadequate religious notions.

Matt, the procedure for taking in a national or International Church is based on those precedents:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_19951112_iv-cent-union-brest_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_19960418_union-uzhorod_en.html

And, various lists of those Churches have been posted on this Thread. They were all received using the SAME BASIC PROCEDURE!

To be con., Michael*
 
Continued from Previous - Matt:

Regarding orders, as I’ve said, Cardinal Ratzinger (the Vatican) has done a LINE BY LINE exam - They’ve found that many of the Priests and Bishops in the TAC have valid orders through UTRECHT (before they started ordaining women Priests) and the PNCC amoung others, that they used a DIFFERENT ORDINAL than that examined by Pope Leo and that they had the same intent as those other bodies, to ordain Priests to the Catholic Church.

If you wish to declare those other Churches’ orders to be invalid, be my guest!
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Matt16_18:
The comparison that you are making between the Anglicans and the Eastern Catholics is false because the Anglicans do not posses valid orders. The precedents that apply to the TAC are easily found by looking at the Anglicans that have become Catholics.
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It is quite within the Pope’s Authority to conditionally consecrate Bishops, who would then conditionally consecrate and ordain those Bishops, Priests, and deacons wishing to make the trip.

You haven’t dealt with receiving a body of 250,000 to 300,000 members. The Catholic Church has.

I suggest you might try trusting your Magisterium a little bit more on this issue.

Blessings and Peace, Michael
 
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Irenicist:
Actually, a Catholic can attend the services of any rite. If Latin Catholic wanted his or her child baptized in another rite, there would be problems. But there is no bar on attending services.

Irenicist
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Irenicist:

What is the rule on “Borrowing” Priests and Bishops? Because, as I think I’ve made pretty clear, the TAC doesn’t have anything like the vocations problems that the Anglican Communion and the Catholic Church are having.

I mean, could one selling point for the local Archbishops Ordinary be that the TAC parishes might be able to supply a few desperately needed priests and Bishops for their Archdioceses? or, Is would there be a wall of separation that would prevent such “loans”, no matter how temporary, from being made?

The reason I’m asking this is, if I were an Archbishop Ordinary, I wouldn’t turning down the “Loan” of 3 or 4 priests in today’s climate!

And, I can’t help but think that this could get REALLY HUGE (6 - 8 million Pariashioners worldwide) once Anglicans who take their Catholicsm seriously understand that there’s a “safe place for them to land” in the Catholic Church. And, in most cases, their priest and bishops will come with them. That’s why it’s important to get the precedent right.

One side benefit for the church if this happens, I believe that, if this goes through as hoped, you’ll see a lot of VOCATIONS, esp. from those who remember what things were like in the Anglican Communion as it was dying. Part of what will motivate them will be GRATITUDE!

Either way, it’ll be interesting yo see, and I think that you and Michael Thoma will have been more accurate than Matt.

Blessings and Peace, Michael
 
If the TAC were to be recieved as a Church sui iuris, the priests would need to recieve biritual faculties to celebrate with the Roman rites or Eastern Churches. They can concelebrate without any permission, but must recieve permission from bishops of both Churches sui iuris to be principal celebrants, which can be easily recieved if necessary.
 
Michael:

I assume that this is in reply to the unasked question of what would be needed for the Archbishop of an Archdiocese to “borrow” a couple of priests from the Anglican Catholic Church AFTER the Church and the priests have been RECEIVED as a body into the Catholic Church.

Am I correct?

Could Archbishops who were so minded switch one or more of their parishes over to Latin (Indult)/(English) Anglican in such a situation? Because I’ve heard that the Latin Indult masses have been quite popular.
Michael_Thoma:
If the TAC were to be recieved as a Church sui iuris, the priests would need to recieve biritual faculties to celebrate with the Roman rites or Eastern Churches. They can concelebrate without any permission, but must recieve permission from bishops of both Churches sui iuris to be principal celebrants, which can be easily recieved if necessary.
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If so (on even the first count), you’ve made this sound potentially very appealing to some Archbishop Ordinaries who are absolutely desparate for Bishops, Priests and Deacons to assist with their congregations.

I’m not talking anymore than a few priests for the Diocese where they could be spared, but that’s sure better than zip. And, once the OTHER Anglicans start coming over with their clergy, that will be even more of a help.

I realize these are all short term, and that, unless those in the Church can begin to solve the vocation crises, they’ll be in an even worse situation than they were, but it could be a stopgap to a solution for those who are so minded.

Thanks for the info.

Blessings and Peace, Michael
 
Traditional Ang:
Matt:

The Vatican has negotiated with the TAC since 1994, and has invited TAC Bishops to join them both on the retreat before and for the Summer Meetings of the College of Bishops. That tells me that the Vatican doesn’t hold your position. The Catholic Archbishop-Ordinary of Pittsberg held a reception for the reception for the consecrated TAC Bishops Moyer and Chislett.
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The “evidence” that you give for supporting the idea that Rome sees the TAC as having valid orders is flimsy, to say the least. I think that you are engaging in more than a little wishful thinking here.
Matt, has what you’ve done over the last two weeks served to bring me and those in the TAC who might have been sitting on the fence closer to the Church or driven us away?
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I truly desire to see all Protestants reconciled with the Catholic Church. I don’t see any point in trying to obfuscate the central issue. Does Rome see the TAC as a Protestant eccelesial community, or does Rome see the Anglicans as being members of a local particular Church with valid sacraments?
Regarding orders, as I’ve said, Cardinal Ratzinger (the Vatican) has done a LINE BY LINE exam - They’ve found that many of the Priests and Bishops in the TAC have valid orders through UTRECHT (before they started ordaining women Priests) and the PNCC amoung others, that they used a DIFFERENT ORDINAL than that examined by Pope Leo and that they had the same intent as those other bodies, to ordain Priests to the Catholic Church.
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I am aware that occasionaly the Catholic Church will acknowledge that an Anglican priest has received valid orders. But those cases are not all that common, and that means that there are many members of the TAC that have never received valid Sacraments of Initiation. Since the ONLY way that one can become a Catholic is to receive the Sacraments of Intitiation, the Anglicans of the TAC are going to have to go through the RCIA program (or something like it) if they want to come into full communion with the Catholic Church.
It is quite within the Pope’s Authority to conditionally consecrate Bishops, who would then conditionally consecrate and ordain those Bishops, Priests, and deacons wishing to make the trip.
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Yes, that is indeed possible, as long as the Anglican bishops accept every infallible teaching of the Catholic Church. And the TAC priests and deacons that have renounced the heresies of Anglicanism by making a profession of faith would become priest and deacons of the Catholic Church if they were ordained by Anglican Bishops that converted first. As priests of the Catholic Church, they could then set up an RCIA program and administer the Sacraments of Initiation to anyone interested in converting to the Catholic Church. But one thing that cannot happen is that the Rome will just declare that the laity of the TAC are instant Catholics because their bishops, priests, and deacons have converted to Catholicism.

The case of the EO and the OO is entirely different than the TAC. The members of the local particular churches of the EO and OO have already received valid Sacraments of Initiation, and that cannot be said about the members of the TAC.
 
Dear All,

Well, the Great Fast has now begun for us, and I think that it would be appropriate for me to try and have a break from all these exciting discussions… at least for the first week.

A blessed Lent, and if I have in any way offended you, I ask your forgiveness.

Fr Ambrose
“Remove not the ancient landmarks which your fathers have set”
-Proverbs 22.28
 
This is very interesting, especially if it is true. Does anyone know where I can find information on this “offer” of John Paul II to the Traditional Anglicans?

If John Paul II really made such an offer it would be very serious. No Pope has the ability to bring a heretic (one who rejects any dogma of the faith) into the Church. It is not possible. To be a member of the Catholic Church one must possess theological faith, which heretics do not possess. Therefore, neither John Paul II, nor anyone one else, can bring a heretic into the Church. It is theologically impossible.

I suppose it is theoretically possible for a Pope to commit the mortal sin of signing an agreement with a heretical group, in which he erroneously leads them to believe that they are members of the Catholic Church… but members of the Church they would not be.

If John Paul II does make this offer, it would seem that one of two things have occurred: either he has lost his mind (due to his illness), or he has lost his faith. Either way, any “agreement” which allows heretics into the Church is null and void.
 
Hey Michael, Peace to You:
Traditional Ang:
Michael:

I assume that this is in reply to the unasked question of what would be needed for the Archbishop of an Archdiocese to “borrow” a couple of priests from the Anglican Catholic Church AFTER the Church and the priests have been RECEIVED as a body into the Catholic Church.

Am I correct?

Could Archbishops who were so minded switch one or more of their parishes over to Latin (Indult)/(English) Anglican in such a situation? Because I’ve heard that the Latin Indult masses have been quite popular.
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I can’t answer that Mike, because, as far as I know (I could be wrong) it isn’t a parish that gets the indult it is the individual priest. So, each priest would have to ask for an indult for the old Mass and it cannot be celebrated in English (as of yet), it must be in Latin. I wouldn’t see a large need for the Latin indult if TAC were accepted with Liturgy, the Sarum Use Liturgy is essentially the Tridentine Mass with local modification.
If so (on even the first count), you’ve made this sound potentially very appealing to some Archbishop Ordinaries who are absolutely desparate for Bishops, Priests and Deacons to assist with their congregations.
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I’m not sure that the Anglicans Bishops (once accepted) would really interact with non-Anglicans. It is possible that some Roman parishes wish to switch; although thats never happened before.
 
**RSiscoe:

As I’ve previously posted, my source appears to have been in error, and NO SUCH OFFER WAS MADE! And, despite the imprecission of my language, NO SUCH OFFER, as you describe, WAS EVER MADE as far as my source was concerned!

Even under the offer described in Post 1 of this Thread, at no time would members of the new Anglican Catholic Church have been allowed to DISSENT, either PUBLICY or PRIVATELY from the Dogma of the Infallibility of the Pope as is now done in many Catholic parishes by both clergy and Laity! **

I figured that, since the Eastern Catholic Churches had been at least a decade to repair any errors in teaching AFTER their Unions with Rome that that precedent was being followed here, so that people like me would be allowed to do with this body what people like me had done with those bodies.

I can assume that some people don’t want it that way, but the precedent is there!

RSiscoe, if you believe in the Infallibility of the Pope, you have to believe that God would not have allowed any such an offer (NO matter how badly described by me in Post 1 of this Thread) to be made unless it first had His stamp of approval. And, If you believe in the Infallibility of the Magisterium, you have to believe that those precedents done 300-4000 years ago are valid today.

RSiscoe, you can’t in good conscience hold His Holiness responsible for my imprecise third hand description of an offer. And, if you wish to call him “Senile”, I suggest you read his latest Encyclical on the “Blogosphere” - The Rapid Development! You’ll find he’s hardly as you suspect!

I can also assure you that His Holiness has NOT lost his faith, and that he sooner die than lose his Faith! He still goes to Mass DAILY and Confession WEEKLY! and, He says the full Rosary and Breviary DAILY, even while in the hospital bed.

Most of us should spend 1/10 of the time with God in prayer and study that he does.
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RSiscoe:
This is very interesting, especially if it is true. Does anyone know where I can find information on this “offer” of John Paul II to the Traditional Anglicans?

If John Paul II really made such an offer it would be very serious. No Pope has the ability to bring a heretic (one who rejects any dogma of the faith) into the Church. It is not possible. To be a member of the Catholic Church one must possess theological faith, which heretics do not possess. Therefore, neither John Paul II, nor anyone one else, can bring a heretic into the Church. It is theologically impossible.

I suppose it is theoretically possible for a Pope to commit the mortal sin of signing an agreement with a heretical group, in which he erroneously leads them to believe that they are members of the Catholic Church… but members of the Church they would not be.

If John Paul II does make this offer, it would seem that one of two things have occurred: either he has lost his mind (due to his illness), or he has lost his faith. Either way, any “agreement” which allows heretics into the Church is null and void.
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What was made appears to have been the offer to extend Communion on the same basis to TAC Communicants as they are to those of the PNCC and any of the Old Catholic Churches that Rome is still in communion with while Rome and the TAC deal with the issues of final settlement.

Part of the final settlement will be how long will people like me have to instruct the faithful in the Faith.

I understand that some would like that time to be as short as possible, months rather than years. But, again, the precedents for longer periods are there.

RSiscoe, I do suggest that you reads the WHOLE Thread, or at least the LAST 20 or thirty posts, before reponding. If you had, you would have found that YOUR Questions had been thoroughly answered in my Post # 448:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=498188&postcount=448

You would have also seen that Irenicist and Michael Thoma had both thoroughly discussed the precedents for receiving a national or international CHURCH into the Catholic Church.

Unless you wanted to post a calumny against His Holiness, Pope John Paul II??

Blessings an Peace, Michael
 
**A request for a friend…

Good MANE:**

The wife of my Pastor (& the Pastor at St. Mary’s), Tanya, has had MS for the past 25 years. For the most part, the disease has progressed slowly, so that it hasn’t denied her the ability to do most of the things that we take for granted, until the last couple months. Since the beginning of the year, a couple of flare-ups have come and gone, with each one leading her in worse shape when it was over than when it started.

Tanya has in the middle of a particularly bad flare-up for the past 2 weeks. She’s sleeping 20 hours/day, has minimal mobility, and has lost much of the function of the hands and fingers (she can’t type, write and has difficulty feeding herself).

I’m asking for your heartfelt prayers, Masses, Rosaries, etc. on her behealf (and that of her very worried husband - Gregory).

Thank you for you thoughts and prayers.

Pax Vobiscum, Michael
 
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Matt16_18:
I am aware that occasionaly the Catholic Church will acknowledge that an Anglican priest has received valid orders. But those cases are not all that common, and that means that there are many members of the TAC that have never received valid Sacraments of Initiation. Since the ONLY way that one can become a Catholic is to receive the Sacraments of Intitiation, the Anglicans of the TAC are going to have to go through the RCIA program (or something like it) if they want to come into full communion with the Catholic Church.
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Matt,

Altho I find the entire premise of corporate entry into communion to be somewhat fanciful, you are absolutely incorrect with regard to the statement that the “ONLY way that one can become a Catholic is to recieve the Sacraments of Initiation.”

Firstly, the phrase “Sacraments of Initiation” is one used almost exclusively in the Eastern and Oriental Churches, Catholic and Orthodox, and generally refers to the fact of children receiving the Mysteries of Baptism, Communion, and Chrismation at the same time and as infants.

Secondly, converts to Catholicism from Protestant Churches are NOT re-baptized unless there is doubt that they were baptized according to the Trinitarian formula, a question rarely if ever found to be answered in the negative with regard to converts from any of the High Churches, such as Anglicanism or Lutheranism. And, note further that administration of valid Baptism does not require valid orders on anyone’s part - Baptism can be and is administered all the time - validly - by lay persons with no orders at all, let alone valid ones.

Thirdly, reception of the Sacraments of the Eucharist and Confirmation or Chrismation is not “required” to “become Catholic”. One could join the Catholic Church and never receive those; regretable though it would be, it would not negate an individual’s Catholicity.
But one thing that cannot happen is that the Rome will just declare that the laity of the TAC are instant Catholics because their bishops, priests, and deacons have converted to Catholicism.
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This is precisely what would occur, as it has happened in the instance of the Anglican Use parishes previously accepted into the Catholic Church and other instances of large-scale conversions and/or entries into communion with Rome.

Many years,

Neil
 
Irish Melkite:
Firstly, the phrase “Sacraments of Initiation” is one used almost exclusively in the Eastern and Oriental Churches, Catholic and Orthodox, and generally refers to the fact of children receiving the Mysteries of Baptism, Communion, and Chrismation at the same time and as infants.
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The phrase “Sacraments of Initiation” is hardly a phrase that is used “almost exclusively” in the Eastern and Oriental Churches. Just pick up any material written about the RCIA programs used in the Latin Rite, or better yet, check the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Secondly, converts to Catholicism from Protestant Churches are NOT re-baptized unless there is doubt that they were baptized according to the Trinitarian formula, a question rarely if ever found to be answered in the negative with regard to converts from any of the High Churches, such as Anglicanism or Lutheranism.
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I agree. And the same thing can be said about Southern Baptists, Methodists, and thousands of other Protestant sects.
And, note further that administration of valid Baptism does not require valid orders on anyone’s part - Baptism can be and is administered all the time - validly - by lay persons with no orders at all, let alone valid ones.
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Agreed. The validity of the Baptism that Protestants receive is what brings them into imperfect communion with the true Church. Again, this is clear if one reads the Catechism.
Thirdly, reception of the Sacraments of the Eucharist and Confirmation or Chrismation is not “required” to “become Catholic”.
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Reception of the Sacraments of the Eucharist and Confirmation most certainly are required for Protestants to come into full communion with the Catholic Church. What do you think the RCIA program is all about? Why do you think that Protestants are not allowed to receive the Eucharist at Mass?

No one is arguing that Anglicans don’t receive valid baptism. Southern Baptists, Methodists, and thousands of other Protestant sects receive valid baptism too.
 
Anglican Use

Anglican Use is a term used within Catholic theology to refer to Anglican ecclesial communities that have become reconciled with the Catholic Church. This reunion became a formal possibility in 1980. Anglican (or Episcopalian) churches are now able to become particular churches within the Catholic Church. They use the Roman Canon of the Mass, instead of the adaptations to the liturgy of Thomas Cranmer.
WikipediaThe Anglican Use Liturgy in the Roman Catholic Church

In 1980, His Holiness Pope John Paul II granted a Pastoral Provision for the establishment of parishes composed of former Episcopalians which could use a modified liturgy from The Book of Common Prayer. There are, at present, six parishes in the USA now using the Anglican Use liturgy. … These parishes are in the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church, but permitted to have their own distinctive liturgy and also permitted to follow their own customs at Mass.
Catholic Information Network, (CIN)
The six parishes in the USA now using the Anglican Use liturgy are:Our Lady of the Atonement Parish
San Antonio, TX
“Father Christopher Phillips, Our Lady of the Atonement’s pastor, said his parish is about half former Episcopalians or other Protestant converts and half lifelong Catholics. Father Phillips was ordained a Catholic priest on Aug. 15, 1983, as 17 other Episcopalians became Catholics and formed the beginning of the parish.”
ncregister.com/Register_News/020203rite.htm]‘Anglican-Use’ Rite Attracts Both Converts and Catholics
Our Lady of Walsingham Parish
Houston, TX

St. Mary the Virgin Parish
Arlington, TX

St. Athanasius Congregation
Boston, MA

Church of the Good Shepherd Parish
Columbia, SC

St. Margaret of Scotland Parish
Austin, TX

St. Anselm of Canterbury Catholic Mission
Corpus Christi, TXWelcome to St. Anselm’s, the home in the Diocese of Corpus Christi for the Anglican Use Liturgy. … While many of us are former members of the Episcopal Church, and our liturgy is derived from the old Book of Common Prayer of the Episcopal Church; we are a ROMAN CATHOLIC community in full communion with, and in submission to the Bishop of Corpus Christi and the Holy See.

St. Anselm’s is a Roman Catholic Mission of the Diocese of Corpus Christi. It is a “common identity” community in which certain elements of the Anglican tradition and ethos are retained. This community has no affiliation with the so called Continuing Anglican Movement or with any branch of the Episcopal Church. Rather it’s members, many of whom are converts from the Episcopal Church have been granted permission to retain some elements of the Anglican heritage while remaining fully Roman Catholic.
​
 
But one thing that cannot happen is that the Rome will just declare that the laity of the TAC are instant Catholics because their bishops, priests, and deacons have converted to Catholicism.
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Irish Melkite:
This is precisely what would occur, as it has happened in the instance of the Anglican Use parishes previously accepted into the Catholic Church and other instances of large-scale conversions and/or entries into communion with Rome.
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“large-scale conversions” :rolleyes:

The Anglican Use parishes are founded on a handful of Anglicans that became converts to the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church. The adult Anglicans in these parishes that swam the Tiber were treated in the same way that any other adult Protestant that desires to join the Catholic Church.Document establishing the Anglican Use

Document Outlining the Pastoral Provision issued by the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on July 22, 1980

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in its Ordinary Session of June 18, 1980, has taken the following decisions in regard to the Episcopalians who seek reconciliation with and entrance into the Catholic Church.

I. General Decisions:
  1. The admission of these persons, even in a group, should be considered the reconciliation of individual persons, as described in the Decree on Ecumenism Redintegratio Unitatis, n. 4, of the Second Vatican Council. …
III. Steps required for admission to full communion:
  1. Theological-catechetical preparation is to be provided according to need.
  2. A profession of faith (with appropriate additions to address the points on which there is divergence of teaching between the Anglican Communion and the Catholic Church) is to be made personally by all (ministers and faithful) as a conditio sine qua non.
  3. Reordination of the Episcopalian clergy, even those who are married, shall be allowed in accord with the customary practice, after the examination of each individual case by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
 
**
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RSiscoe:
This is very interesting, especially if it is true. Does anyone know where I can find information on this “offer” of John Paul II to the Traditional Anglicans?
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If John Paul II really made such an offer it would be very serious. No Pope has the ability to bring a heretic (one who rejects any dogma of the faith) into the Church. It is not possible. To be a member of the Catholic Church one must possess theological faith, which heretics do not possess. Therefore, neither John Paul II, nor anyone one else, can bring a heretic into the Church. It is theologically impossible. **

**## Precisely - the Pope has “fullness of power” - but this is not the same as Papal power to do all things: it is not omnipotence. It is limited power - limited by (for example) his status as a creature (he is not God, so he cannot create), by dogma (he cannot define anything contrary to the Creed or to the definitions of his predecessors or of the Councils), by the Divine element in the constitution of the Church (the Church is episcopal, so he cannot abolish the episcopate - he is not Christ, Who established it); and he cannot rule as a tyrant (it would be tyrannical to abolish the Byzantine Rite, so he would be using his power to accomplish a purpose for which it was not designed). **

**“He cannot do” a great many things, because Papal power is not indeterminate and neutral - it can’t be used to do just any old thing: it is designed for the very specific purpose of enabling popes to carry out the responsibilities in the Petrine office: like free will, it is “biassed” in favour of doing what conforms to God’s Will. It is therefore a power with moral foundations - so a papal order to commit a wicked act, such as murder or genocide, would be worthless. **

**None of this is injurious to papal authority - far from it; for papal authority is not confirmed by being exaggerated, but is distorted. Popes can do only what is fitting for their office - Christ-like things: and acting as though they were unre****strained or absolute is not that. **

**That is the basic reason why the Pope cannot allow non-Catholics into the Church as though they were Catholics: **morally he is not entitled to, because the fullness of power is not that extensive, nor that sort of power. He could not do it, even if he wanted passionately to do so. ##

**

I suppose it is theoretically possible for a Pope to commit the mortal sin of signing an agreement with a heretical group, in which he erroneously leads them to believe that they are members of the Catholic Church… but members of the Church they would not be.

If John Paul II does make this offer, it would seem that one of two things have occurred: either he has lost his mind (due to his illness), or he has lost his faith. Either way, any “agreement” which allows heretics into the Church is null and void.**

## I get the impression that he has not - FWIW ##
 
**

Matt16_18 said:
“large-scale conversions” :rolleyes:
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The Anglican Use parishes are founded on a handful of Anglicans that became converts to the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church. The adult Anglicans in these parishes that swam the Tiber were treated in the same way that any other adult Protestant that desires to join the Catholic Church.Document establishing the Anglican Use** **
**Document Outlining the Pastoral Provision issued by the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on July 22, 1980 **
**The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, in its Ordinary Session of June 18, 1980, has taken the following decisions in regard to the Episcopalians who seek reconciliation with and entrance into the Catholic Church. **
**I. General Decisions: **
1) The admission of these persons, even in a group, should be considered the reconciliation of individual persons, as described in the Decree on Ecumenism Redintegratio Unitatis, n. 4, of the Second Vatican Council. …
**III. Steps required for admission to full communion: **
**1) Theological-catechetical preparation is to be provided according to need. **
**2) A profession of faith (with appropriate additions to address the points on which there is divergence of teaching between the Anglican Communion and the Catholic Church) is to be made personally by all (ministers and faithful) as a conditio sine qua non. **
3) Reordination of the Episcopalian clergy, even those who are married, shall be allowed in accord with the customary practice, after the examination of each individual case by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
********## Just very quickly (if possible) - what exactly is a “pastoral provision” ? **
TY ##
 
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