Angry about NFP

[etmom]

This is one of those posts where *you *need to snap out of it. Do you not see the OP is struggling with more than just having chldren? Or is absolutely everyone supposed to feel as you do and that every child at every time is a blessing? Yes, kids are blessings, but don’t tell me there are not times you’ve thought of what it would be like to not have children or that it would be easier and less stressful if you did not, or had them at different times, etc. If you say you have not, you are not being honest.

Never. And that is complete honesty. As someone who watched our infant son die a horrible, painful death, I never viewed him, or any of my children as anything but blessings, gifts. Would it have been less stressful not to have him? Most certainly, and I would not have had my heart broken. but what I gained was so much greater. While I’m not always peaceful and joyful with my children, I have always viewed them as blessings.

 

[The_Bucket]

Hey, there, armywife -

Thanks for your service!

Think the difference here is that you are choosing to have 7 kids while your husband is still deploying. Right, wrong, by choice to have sex or not, the OP does not want - more so, cannot handle - more children at this time.

The problem, and it is very real, is that the church says if you withhold sex, you sin; if you don’t use NFP, you sin; supposedly, if you use NFP with a “contraceptive mindset”, you sin; if you use any type of ABC (condoms,pills, other sex), you sin. So the only options left are not to be physically, sexually intimate with your spouse or go ahead and have kids you cannot take care of. Which is the greater sin? What impact do you think either of those have on a marriage? And being told by most posters here to suck it up, or that it is not real, or that there is no way whatsoever it is the “fault” of church teachings on sex and NFP , or the myriad other things posted, does no good and does not help the OP.

Personally I think people spouting their theological opinions make this more difficult than it needs to be. Using any kind of artificial birth control is gravely immoral. No question about that. The rest of it is about being generous to one another and towards the (even if insignificant in terms of probability) prospect of new life. The Church calls us to be generous in our married sexual lives but it also demands that we spouses listen to one another.

The choices you list are not the choices presented before you. What you’re supposed to choose is to pray together, listen to one another and get on the same page. And if you’re not on the same page, then don’t resent the other person and keep working to get on the same page when it comes to intimacy and the use (or lack of use) of NFP.

The bottom line is that the Church calls us to radically change our mindset to think about others and put others before ourselves. That applies in ALL cases. For instance, if say the wife truly cannot physically or emotionally deal with another child right now, then the husband is called to put his own possible frustrations aside and practice a conservative course of NFP.

But above all we must remember that we’re not following through on this call to generosity towards others if artificial means of contraception is being used. That’s the number one thing here to recall. These others things are relative small potatoes and have a few shades of gray compared to the black and white that using artificial birth control for the purposes of contraception is always, always, always gravely immoral.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

This is one of those posts where *you *need to snap out of it. Do you not see the OP is struggling with more than just having chldren? Or is absolutely everyone supposed to feel as you do and that every child at every time is a blessing? Yes, kids are blessings, but don’t tell me there are not times you’ve thought of what it would be like to not have children or that it would be easier and less stressful if you did not, or had them at different times, etc. If you say you have not, you are not being honest.

Not everyone looks upon pregnancy as you do (hormones, stress, PPD?), but you sure as heck condemn them when they do not.

Get yourself to confession for being so ridiculously judgemental.

No way. Never, not once. And if someone close to me, as I said in my earlier post, had said such things to me, I would do exactly what I said I would, and state it in stern terms.

I had PPD with my 2nd son and ended up in a psych ward. I would never regret having had him, ever. He has been a challenge to us in many ways, yet he is one of the hugest blessings as well.

I reject your belief that someone who does not regret having their children is being dishonest.

What I do regret is not having had the opportunity to allow God to gift me with even more blessings.

 

[The_Bucket]

Never. And that is complete honesty. As someone who watched our infant son die a horrible, painful death, I never viewed him, or any of my children as anything but blessings, gifts. Would it have been less stressful not to have him? Most certainly, and I would not have had my heart broken. but what I gained was so much greater. While I’m not always peaceful and joyful with my children, I have always viewed them as blessings.

My heart breaks for you. I can’t imagine what would be like if my son, who neared death on several occasions following his very early birth, had succumbed. Prayers and God’s strength be with you.

That being said I can at least understand a little where the other poster was coming from. While I thank God constantly for sparing my son and keeping my daughter and wife healthy in a tough follow-up pregnancy, there are certainly days where the kids are a handful. And as a father I always worry that I’ll be able to keep them all financially safe.

That doesn’t make them a “burden” really but the weight of responsibility can be heavy and at times, the typical behavior of young children doesn’t really help.

Are there times where I wonder what would have happened if we had children a couple of years after we were married instead of finding out about our son after a couple of MONTHS? Yeah I do. I think maybe we’d be slightly better off financially but that’s really about it. And my son and my daughter would not be the same people so how can I regret it? I think about hypothetical at times like anyone else, but I don’t wish that it was changed when I face the stark reality that the events that have helped me become what I hope can be considered a decent and good man and father would not have happened. So maybe I would have become a massively selfish jerk since I already have a propensity to be selfish. That would not be good for my marriage, my children or my chances at salvation.

 

[searching04]

Good Lord, I went to bed last night thinking of all the posts I first read in response to the jonnlauren, the OP.

Nothing like someone struggling in life with sex and being Catholic and kids to raise the ire of posters.

I had initially not seen many supportive or at least charitable posts; most just condemned the OP for being selfish. Well, thank goodnesss there were posts from losh14, #32; lucylight, #33 and especially #38; StFrancis, #34; Apologista, #37.

There are others that finally addressed jonnlauren’s obvious pain and struggle. Not saying that sex in college while unmarried was a good diea, but they are indeed married. It is the fear of pregnancy that is key here. Now she needs resources, not condemnation.

As much as I disagree with church teachings on sex and follow them anyway, NFP itself can and does work. So, jonnlauren, I hope you do indeed seek some counseling, investigate methods of NFP, pray and make your own decisions within your conscience and with God. Sky_? (rats, forgot!) says it perfectly, whether other posters here agree or not.

Going to the radical extreme, which is where I am / we are as a couple in our marriage, and what is discussed in the article I posted, is no place to be. It is empty, it hurts, it is dark. And no, it is not a choice; it is a result. But not being sexually, physically intimate with your God-given spouse is not a place to be either. Hell of a choice we are given, eh?

God bless.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I have yet to see or hear a passage that state that every intimate act between a husband and wife MUST be for the sole act of conception. I know that the church teaches this…

I’m just lurking in this thread, as I’m not married and have no helpful experience or advice to offer for anyone. But I did want to correct this statement, as it’s not true.

Remember that there’s a difference between an act’s object (i.e. what it is objectively) and the subjective intention behind it. While it is true that the Church says every sexual act must be objectively open to life, it is not true that the only legitimate motive for sex is conception. In fact, it’s okay for a husband and wife to have sex while actively intending not to have a baby. If that were not morally okay, then using NFP to avoid pregnancy wouldn’t be okay, either.

Anyway, back to reading this thread. Like I said, I have no practical contribution; I just wanted to make that point about the principle/theory/teaching at stake.

 

[searching04]

Never. And that is complete honesty. As someone who watched our infant son die a horrible, painful death, I never viewed him, or any of my children as anything but blessings, gifts. Would it have been less stressful not to have him? Most certainly, and I would not have had my heart broken. but what I gained was so much greater. While I’m not always peaceful and joyful with my children, I have always viewed them as blessings.

Never what? Had those thoughts? Of course kids are blessings. But I don’t know one parent yet who had NEVER had a thought of “what if something was different?” Doesn’t mean someone doesn’t want their child.

You’ve been through more than any parent should, so I can only imagine.

 

[searching04]

Personally I think people spouting their theological opinions make this more difficult than it needs to be. Using any kind of artificial birth control is gravely immoral. No question about that. The rest of it is about being generous to one another and towards the (even if insignificant in terms of probability) prospect of new life. The Church calls us to be generous in our married sexual lives but it also demands that we spouses listen to one another.

Calling things theological opinions when people are dealing with REAL issues is ignoring the fact that there are real issues.

The choices you list are not the choices presented before you. What you’re supposed to choose is to pray together, listen to one another and get on the same page. And if you’re not on the same page, then don’t resent the other person and keep working to get on the same page when it comes to intimacy and the use (or lack of use) of NFP.

The choices absolutely are what we are given and by your own constant reminders, it is what the church dictates. Yes, pray and listen, but “get on the same page”? Are you serious? Just like that? The most perfect example I have seen so far is in the article I posted - it is all ike agape love: it is a goal, it is a journey.

“Supposed to do” does not mean that the choices are different. They are indeed what I posted.

Are you married? Do you have kids?

The bottom line is that the Church calls us to radically change our mindset to think about others and put others before ourselves. That applies in ALL cases. For instance, if say the wife truly cannot physically or emotionally deal with another child right now, then the husband is called to put his own possible frustrations aside and practice a conservative course of NFP.

Who says that husbands don’t do this? The utter misconception is that couples who struggle and disagree with the church and even each other are not doing just that. What do you think causes the sturggle?

But above all we must remember that we’re not following through on this call to generosity towards others if artificial means of contraception is being used. That’s the number one thing here to recall. These others things are relative small potatoes and have a few shades of gray compared to the black and white that using artificial birth control for the purposes of contraception is always, always, always gravely immoral.

That first sentence is where there is plenty of disagreement. Church says what it says, but it doesn;t change the reality for couples. Yes, we have to follow even if we disagree and all of our experience tells us differently.

 

[searching04]

No way. Never, not once. And if someone close to me, as I said in my earlier post, had said such things to me, I would do exactly what I said I would, and state it in stern terms.

I had PPD with my 2nd son and ended up in a psych ward. I would never regret having had him, ever. He has been a challenge to us in many ways, yet he is one of the hugest blessings as well.

I reject your belief that someone who does not regret having their children is being dishonest.

What I do regret is not having had the opportunity to allow God to gift me with even more blessings.

I never once said anything whatsoever about someone regretting having kids, not once. That is your and others reading into it because of your feelings. That said, do you not believe that couples do indeed regret decisions made or having kids when they did? Of course. Do all couples? No. Should they regret having kids? No. What I said I believed would be dishonest is if someone said they never, ever once had a thought of “what if?” That “what if” could be a million things.

 

[maryjk]

Never what? Had those thoughts? Of course kids are blessings. **But I don’t know one parent yet who had NEVER had a thought of “what if something was different?” **Doesn’t mean someone doesn’t want their child.

You’ve been through more than any parent should, so I can only imagine.

I have NEVER thought that life would be easier if I didn’t have my child, never. Sorry that you think those kind of thoughts are normal.

 

[maryjk]

This is one of those posts where *you *need to snap out of it. Do you not see the OP is struggling with more than just having chldren? Or is absolutely everyone supposed to feel as you do and that every child at every time is a blessing? Yes, kids are blessings, but don’t tell me there are not times you’ve thought of what it would be like to not have children or that it would be easier and less stressful if you did not, or had them at different times, etc. If you say you have not, you are not being honest.

Not everyone looks upon pregnancy as you do (hormones, stress, PPD?), but you sure as heck condemn them when they do not.

Get yourself to confession for being so ridiculously judgemental.

Never what? Had those thoughts? Of course kids are blessings. **But I don’t know one parent yet who had NEVER had a thought of “what if something was different?” Doesn’t mean someone doesn’t want their child. **

You’ve been through more than any parent should, so I can only imagine.

I never once said anything whatsoever about someone regretting having kids, not once. That is your and others reading into it because of your feelings. That said, do you not believe that couples do indeed regret decisions made or having kids when they did? Of course. Do all couples? No. Should they regret having kids? No. What I said I believed would be dishonest is if someone said they never, ever once had a thought of “what if?” That “what if” could be a million things.

Please don’t insult us. Maybe you should reread your own posts.

 

[searching04]

Please don’t insult us. Maybe you should reread your own posts.

I stand correected, to a point.

Don’t insult us or me by underlining only part of what I wrote and then adding the other two quotes as well. Maybe you need to re-read ALL of them and keep it all in context?

 

[maryjk]

I stand correected, to a point.

Don’t insult us or me by underlining only part of what I wrote and then adding the other two quotes as well. Maybe you need to re-read ALL of them and keep it all in context?

I quoted your entire post, and all posts by you related to the topic. Did I miss a post? Or change what you had written?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

This is one of those posts where *you *need to snap out of it. Do you not see the OP is struggling with more than just having chldren? Or is absolutely everyone supposed to feel as you do and that every child at every time is a blessing? **Yes, kids are blessings, but don’t tell me there are not times you’ve thought of what it would be like to not have children or that it would be easier and less stressful if you did not, or had them at different times, etc. If you say you have not, you are not being honest.
**
Not everyone looks upon pregnancy as you do (hormones, stress, PPD?), but you sure as heck condemn them when they do not.

Get yourself to confession for being so ridiculously judgemental.

I take it back. I HAVE thought of what it would be like not to have children. I feel pity for people who CHOOSE not to have children. I think my life would be empty, self-consumed, and sad, had we not had children. Had God not blessed us with children, I would have likely gone into teaching, or child psychology, or some other field where I could be around children. But I would have been heartbroken. And if we had chosen not to have children? Those are some of the most selfish people I have ever met.

Your post said that if I did not admit that I had entertained the thought that life would be easier and less stressful if I didn’t have kids, I was being dishonest. Bunk. I have NEVER had that thought, not once, even when both of them had chicken pox at the same time. Even when the virus they passed around hit me too, and I had to run to the toilet, throw up, and then go back and nurse my oldest through his fever. Even when I was at the end of my own resources, NEVER NEVER NEVER did I regret having them, or imagine how great my life would have been had I not had them.

In fact, at times I have wondered how God could have had enough confidence in me to grant me the highest blessing that He gives, that of fostering two immortal souls for a short time, trying to give them a spiritual foundation for the rest of their earthly lives. We talk about this on a regular basis, God and I.

 

[searching04]

I take it back. I HAVE thought of what it would be like not to have children. I feel pity for people who CHOOSE not to have children. I think my life would be empty, self-consumed, and sad, had we not had children. Had God not blessed us with children, I would have likely gone into teaching, or child psychology, or some other field where I could be around children. But I would have been heartbroken. And if we had chosen not to have children? Those are some of the most selfish people I have ever met.

Your post said that if I did not admit that I had entertained the thought that life would be easier and less stressful if I didn’t have kids, I was being dishonest. Bunk. I have NEVER had that thought, not once, even when both of them had chicken pox at the same time. Even when the virus they passed around hit me too, and I had to run to the toilet, throw up, and then go back and nurse my oldest through his fever. Even when I was at the end of my own resources, NEVER NEVER NEVER did I regret having them, or imagine how great my life would have been had I not had them.

In fact, at times I have wondered how God could have had enough confidence in me to grant me the highest blessing that He gives, that of fostering two immortal souls for a short time, trying to give them a spiritual foundation for the rest of their earthly lives. We talk about this on a regular basis, God and I.

That was all I was trying to say - for that fleeting moment, you *did *think about it (though in a different manner), and are forever grateful that you *have *your kids. Your post makes sense. There is a huge difference between never having that thought during stressful times and then deciding you wished you really did not have them.

It is fine to fell sorry for or even pity those who choosed to not have kids; they will not know what we know. At the same time, I will never, ever condemn them for that, Catholic or not. I may disagree, but that is all. Unfortunately, there are times in all of these threads and posts in this forum where couples are darn near condemned for their own feelings about having kids. Every experience is as different as the people out there. I just don’t think everyone respects that because the church says xyz.

 

[The_Bucket]

The choices absolutely are what we are given and by your own constant reminders, it is what the church dictates. Yes, pray and listen, but “get on the same page”? Are you serious? Just like that? The most perfect example I have seen so far is in the article I posted - it is all ike agape love: it is a goal, it is a journey.

“Supposed to do” does not mean that the choices are different. They are indeed what I posted.

Are you married? Do you have kids?

Reading. It’s FUNdamental! I got married at 22 and we found out about our first kid two months later. He was born extremely early and spend months in the hospital. We found out about our daughter about three weeks after he was discharged. We have since practiced fairly conservative NFP and been quite successful at it. Our kids will be turning 4 and 3 respectively in short order.

When I say get on the same page I mean about the use or not use of NFP. And of course it doesn’t happen right away. Of course it takes time. That was my point. You can’t let resentment build up because one spouse wants one thing and the other is uncomfortable with that.

Who says that husbands don’t do this? The utter misconception is that couples who struggle and disagree with the church and even each other are not doing just that. What do you think causes the sturggle?

What causes the struggle is not the Church or Her doctrine. What causes the struggle is our brokenness, our propensity to sin. The issue is that you and a couple other folks are talking outright dissension with all that “make peace with what you decide” nonsense. You can’t make peace with sin no matter how hard you try. There is a massive difference between struggling with something like habit-forming sin and making conscious decisions to disagree with the Church and then acting on that disagreement. I’m not getting all Evangelical here and saying if you fall you’re gonna burn, but what I am saying is that you can’t advocate for others to try and make peace with sin.

 

[Jennifer_J]

I’m going to try to offer some practical advice as most things I would have said to the OP have been said. No mention was made of the form of NFP used, but there are many forms–some work better for certain women than other forms:

Sympto-Thermal: mucous, basal body temp, cervix crosschecked with each other (http:www.ccli.org or an online course nfpandmore.com)

Creighton: medical model mucous only (creightonmodel.com)

Marquette: sympto thermal with a fertility monitor (nfp.marquette.edu/ there’s online learning, a forum and other features)

Billings: mucous only (woomb.org/)

One More Soul has resources about NFP and finding an NFP only doctor and NFP teachers: onemoresoul.com/

I would additionally suggest getting a better understanding of what the Church actually teaches about sex and marriage, the Catechism is a good place to start…then:
Humane Vitae
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

Casti Connubbi
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii_en.html

Theology of the body
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TBIND.HTM

Some book suggestions:
amazon.com/Good-News-About-Sex-Marriage/dp/1569552142
amazon.com/Theology-Body-Beginners-Introduction-Revolution/dp/1934217859/ref=pd_sim_b_1
amazon.com/Holy-Sex-Toe-Curling-Mind-Blowing-Infallible/dp/0824524713/ref=pd_sim_b_9
amazon.com/Style-Sex-Substance-Catholic-Consider/dp/1612785727/ref=pd_sim_b_8
amazon.com/Love-Responsibility-Karol-Wojtyla/dp/0898704456/ref=pd_sim_b_1

 

[searching04]

Reading. It’s FUNdamental! I got married at 22 and we found out about our first kid two months later. He was born extremely early and spend months in the hospital. We found out about our daughter about three weeks after he was discharged. We have since practiced fairly conservative NFP and been quite successful at it. Our kids will be turning 4 and 3 respectively in short order.

When I say get on the same page I mean about the use or not use of NFP. And of course it doesn’t happen right away. Of course it takes time. That was my point. You can’t let resentment build up because one spouse wants one thing and the other is uncomfortable with that.

What causes the struggle is not the Church or Her doctrine. What causes the struggle is our brokenness, our propensity to sin. The issue is that you and a couple other folks are talking outright dissension with all that “make peace with what you decide” nonsense. You can’t make peace with sin no matter how hard you try. There is a massive difference between struggling with something like habit-forming sin and making conscious decisions to disagree with the Church and then acting on that disagreement. I’m not getting all Evangelical here and saying if you fall you’re gonna burn, but what I am saying is that you can’t advocate for others to try and make peace with sin.

This is good, so thank you.

I’ll disagree (imagine that) that church teachings (I do not believe it is doctrine) do not cause the struggle. It absolutely does. And yes, people struggle with it, maybe because “of our brokeness”, maybe not. But whether couples decide together that the lesser evil is to be sexaully intimate using some sort of ABC or to become distant and have their marriage destroyed while trying to adhere to said doctrine, who is to say they should not make that decision? No one here, that is for sure. Because there are posters here who have, in beating others over the head with all the CCC jargon, essentially told others they will burn in hell. Peachy. And so, I once again refer to the article I posted where it talks about the radical extreme.

I am at the radical extreme; we are as a couple, though my wife will view it differently. It is sad, it is dark, it hurts. And guess what? It isn’t because we disagree about NFP. It is because we disagree on church teachings. In following church teachings on sex - and yes, it boils down to where the semen lands, like it or not - and having to be extremely conservative in NFP, sexual intimacy is very infrequent. Key word is intimacy, which most people here do not think applies to a man. So yes, church teachings do indeed cause struggles because as I said, we are told: if you don’t use NFP, you sin; if you use it with a “contraceptive mindset”, you sin; if you have non-intercourse sex, you sin; if you withhold sex, you sin. We are told - no matter the impact on a marriage, no matter how *grave that *gets, that to do anything other than be ready to have a baby, wheher you can afford one or medically even have one, no matter what - then don’t be intimate with your God-given spouse. So, yes, indeed, church teachings cause problems. So, yes, couples are literally forced to decide - because of where *they *are in the marriage and relationship, no matter what anyone else here thinks or believes - whether to not be sexually intimate in any way with their spouse or watch their marriage suffer. Do you really think that is what the church intends? I do because it is the rules it has laid out. But I don’t believe or think for a minute that is what God intends, not at all.

 

[searching04]

The post once more for reference.

I have been flat out told in other forums/threads by someone posting in this forum/thread that what I am living is not real; it is not a fact. Because the church says it isn’t supposed to be so. Well, this was written by a priest. He sees it and explains it perfectly. More so, describes it perfectly. Now if he would tell us how to get back from that extreme… I am not alone in feeling or living this, as you can tell from other posters.

szansaspotkania.net/index.php?page=15729

 

[SwizzleStick]

…But I don’t believe or think for a minute that is what God intends, not at all.

Why do you think that? I keep reading that some folks have a problem with Church teaching, but isn’t it God’s plan? It is basic biology after all, isn’t it? Birth control takes a perfectly functioning, perfectly healthy body and messes up the way it is supposed to function. Do you think that is part of God’s plan? If so, why did He make our bodies the way He did?