Anime Thread #3: You Can (Not) Repost

[CesarAugustus]

Oh my goodness, I guess that means we’ll never see u again, considering how long and awesome each series is!

Last I had heard, the 2nd season of Prisma Illya is supposedly getting into serious yuri territory, but we’ll see. I doubt I’ll be watching it (even though I have seen the 1st - and could barely stomach some of the lewd scenes ), but if u do end up watching it, please let us know if it does.

I was reading some time ago that Prisma Illya had yuri-like fanservice, is that true?

 

[Tenofovir]

Oh my goodness, I guess that means we’ll never see u again, considering how long and awesome each series is!

Last I had heard, the 2nd season of Prisma Illya is supposedly getting into serious yuri territory (if it follows the manga), but we’ll see. I doubt I’ll be watching it (even though I have seen the 1st - and could barely stomach some of the lewd scenes ), but if u do end up watching it, please let us know if it does.

I seriously doubt there will be any serious lesbian stuff going on. It will prolly be like CCS with Tomoyo making mild advances and Sakura/Illya being entirely clueless and embarrassed about it/and telling her off. Or they may just become close friends. That is still OK as close friendship among these young characters who are too young for sexual feelings are not themselves a sinful thing.

There are yuri anime with older characters where the girls are definitely old enough for “sexual” feelings. That is a different territory to this, I’d say for above reasons. They’re too young to have sexual feelings, and their “love” is just platonic / non-sexual.

That’s at least what I think when I see such things shown in such anime. I can’t imagine sexual feelings among such young characters. It’s divide by zero for me.

In girls’ books like Anne of Green Gables/Avonlea, these girls have these “bosom friends” and they even swear undying love to each other. That all goes away when they finally become old enough and meet attractive representatives of the opposite sex. This is just that. If some perverts get off on it, I can’t help that but we should not always assume the worst.

 

[Tenofovir]

I was reading some time ago that Prisma Illya had yuri-like fanservice, is that true?

I watched some episodes and did not think so. Maybe I missed what I missed but yuri for me is not the same as for others. Haha, or maybe I just don’t want them to be juvenile lesbians. But I reject that concept outright. These girls would not have sexual feelings about the opposite sex or same sex.

 

[Tenofovir]

Last I had heard, the 2nd season of Prisma Illya is supposedly getting into serious yuri territory (if it follows the manga), but we’ll see. I doubt I’ll be watching it (even though I have seen the 1st - and could barely stomach some of the lewd scenes ), but if u do end up watching it, please let us know if it does.

Did you watch Fantasista Doru? It is better than Illya.

 

[Tenofovir]

There is an anime in the works based on the Atelier series of games. Anyone heard more?

 

[Kamaduck]

Prisma Illya TWO is coming… how cool is that? Star Trek-Star Smerk. With Wesley Crusher? Only Trek of note was the “Groot Trek”.

Well, I’m mostly watching Voyager and re-watching TOS right now, so I haven’t seen hide nor hair of Wesley Crusher. I haven’t seen much of TNG in general, actually, though I really like Geordi and Data. I’m going to try not to get sucked into that eleven-season journey until I have considerably more free time.

Oh my goodness, I guess that means we’ll never see u again, considering how long and awesome each series is!

There is that danger, with seven seasons of Voyager. I’m sure I’ll have time to finish my list of unfinished anime at some point.

I see. I’m still watching shows from older seasons.

Ack. I still need to finish Attack on Titan, and now my friend is telling me that Log Horizon is amazing. And I still have’t gotten around to Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood or Mushi-shi. There’s just never enough time. Or, more accurately, I spend my time on silly things and then don’t have time for the fiction I want.

 

[CesarAugustus]

I seriously doubt there will be any serious lesbian stuff going on. It will prolly be like CCS with Tomoyo **making mild advances and Sakura/Illya being entirely clueless and embarrassed about it/and telling her off.Or they may just become close friends. That is still OK as close friendship among these young characters who are too young for sexual feelings are not themselves a sinful thing. **

In girls’ books like Anne of Green Gables/Avonlea, these girls have these “bosom friends” and they even swear undying love to each other. That all goes away when they finally become old enough and meet attractive representatives of the opposite sex. This is just that. If some perverts get off on it, I can’t help that but we should not always assume the worst.

I watched some episodes and did not think so. Maybe I missed what I missed but yuri for me is not the same as for others. Haha, or maybe I just don’t want them to be juvenile lesbians. But I reject that concept outright. These girls would not have sexual feelings about the opposite sex or same sex.

Romantic friendships between girls?

I think that is dangerous territory. I would avoid these if I was directing/writing/making anime. If some fans lift “relationships” between characters without clear indicators, that would be more obvious material for them.

I think that one thing is an intense or close friendship between girls, and other one romantic frienships.

 

[CesarAugustus]

Ack. I still need to finish Attack on Titan, and now my friend is telling me that Log Horizon is amazing. And I still have’t gotten around to Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood or Mushi-shi. There’s just never enough time. Or, more accurately, I spend my time on silly things and then don’t have time for the fiction I want.

I see. With the dropped series from this season I have more space for other series.

 

[Tenofovir]

Romantic friendships between girls?

I think that is dangerous territory. I would avoid these if I was directing/writing/making anime. If some fans lift “relationships” between characters without clear indicators, that would be more obvious material for them.

Yes romantic. But please remember it’s not immoral for there to be agape between two individuals, even of the same sex. It’s only sexual activity not limited to actual sex which is immoral. For example two lesbians who love each other, hold hands, cuddle in a non sexual way and so on, and swear to be inseparable forever so to say are not doing anything immoral. If they don’t have male company and never marry it’s not wrong per se.

I think that one thing is an intense or close friendship between girls, and other one romantic frienships.

I think the two are often difficult or impossible to tell apart. And I tend to be more charitable or maybe want the situations to be more innocent, and in fact I consider them so. Of course as said, if there is actual fondling and some such, that becomes immoral in an anime. My rationale being that young girls may often experiment - that does not mean have sex - but play out romantic relationships with other girls and then later grow out of that when they mature sexually enough to realise those boys are actually handsome princes and so on.

 

[Tenofovir]

Would I write a story with young girls being romantically in love…? No. But would I write a story where they are inseparable and close and don’t care about boys – even swear to never leave each other – maybe. Of course I’d put in enough clues to show that they are not having lesbian relationships and that male interests are a (future) option - for example a declaration such as: “Promise me that we’ll stay together forever even after we marry and start our own families”.

Of course I’m not generally fond of such close relationships either, I would probably not write such stories, although in many an anime, Magical Girls or in main stream films or even in real life, we know that “Brothers in Arms” share special bonds, bonds which may sometimes be stronger than between them and their spouses, especially if they went through terrible things together.

 

[Kamaduck]

Would I write a story with young girls being romantically in love…? No. But would I write a story where they are inseparable and close and don’t care about boys – even swear to never leave each other – maybe. Of course I’d put in enough clues to show that they are not having lesbian relationships and that male interests are a (future) option - for example a declaration such as: “Promise me that we’ll stay together forever even after we marry and start our own families”.

Of course I’m not generally fond of such close relationships either, I would probably not write such stories, although in many an anime, Magical Girls or in main stream films or even in real life, we know that “Brothers in Arms” share special bonds, bonds which may sometimes be stronger than between them and their spouses, especially if they went through terrible things together.

I don’t really see anything wrong with having super close friendships, even without making the girls say that they’d like to get married someday. I’ve had friendships like that, and they’re wholly independent of whether or not I’d like to get married someday. I think it’s sad that inseparable female friends are assumed to be lesbians- these are experiences that many, if not most girls have, though it’s not as portrayed in anime most of the time. Too often these “romantic friendship” things are intended to bait a male audience. I want actual friendships, actual activities and working together and staying up late at night to discuss the future and whether either of you is ready for it. That’s what close friendships are, not scenes where one girl touches another and the second girl blushes and freaks out. I don’t have a problem with close girl friendships, I have a problem with the fake way that some stories frame them.

Oh, and I probably would be willing to write a story about girls who are romantically in love, because sometimes that happens. I’d just make it about the girls and their decisions, and paint their choices, good or bad, in a positive or negative light depending on what they do. I don’t think there are a whole lot of things, even sinful things, that we aren’t allowed to tell stories about. I don’t want there to be a ton of stories about that, but a few where the characters sacrifice their desires in order to do the right thing would be positive.

Girls have close friendships fairly often. That doesn’t make them “romantic” per se. There are at least three kinds of love other than eros, and any of those can be shared between people of the same gender without sin. Those kinds of love are a good thing. I don’t know how we’re defining “romantic” in this conversation, but the only things that annoy me are unnecessary blushing and suggestive touching. It’s really common in anime and not common in real life, and I wish we had more shows with girls who are romantically disinterested but also really close to each other.

 

[Tenofovir]

It’s really common in anime and not common in real life, and I wish we had more shows with girls who are romantically disinterested but also really close to each other.

Japanese are often very reserved and stoic. So touching will make people blush. It’s not that it’s something sexually exciting but it’s something emotionally intense. So I’m not against blushing. Suggestive touching that’s a bit different but ordinary or even close touching like holding hands or pecking on the cheek (kiss) is not suggestive. These are visual representations of close bonding. They’re there because in subsequent episodes that closeness will be shaken or even broken by betrayal or misunderstanding and so on.

I agree that there are many types of love. And I largely agree with you. One should be cautious to reject the genuine erotic but not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Also we must remember that the audience usually is male otaku. The two girls who are close are really surrogates for the audience member in a way. Often the otaku viewer is lonely and would like such a companion. And in most cases this is not sexual.

 

[Kamaduck]

Japanese are often very reserved and stoic. So touching will make people blush. It’s not that it’s something sexually exciting but it’s something emotionally intense. So I’m not against blushing. Suggestive touching that’s a bit different but ordinary or even close touching like holding hands or pecking on the cheek (kiss) is not suggestive. These are visual representations of close bonding. They’re there because in subsequent episodes that closeness will be shaken or even broken by betrayal or misunderstanding and so on.

I’m not against blushing or touching per se. I’m against framing friendships in the same way as romantic relationships. It’s weird. I don’t know how it is in Japan, but where I’m from people don’t really touch their friends a lot outside of maybe hugs. I don’t even hug my friends, but I do spend a lot of time with them and have intense discussions, and those friendships are really important to me. They are close, but I don’t think it would be possible to frame them as “romantic”.

I agree that there are many types of love. And I largely agree with you. One should be cautious to reject the genuine erotic but not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Yes, exactly. I want to see close female friendships, but I want the focus to be on the friendship of the girls, and not baiting a male audience with subtext.

Also we must remember that the audience usually is male otaku. The two girls who are close are really surrogates for the audience member in a way. Often the otaku viewer is lonely and would like such a companion. And in most cases this is not sexual.

Yeah, but it’s really suspicious if they’re consistently projecting themselves onto little girls who do not act like actual little girls. It’s not wrong, per se, but it’s a shallow approximation of real life without all the power of a real friendship. Just because it’s not sexual doesn’t mean it’s good or helpful. If they actually want to hear the stories about the friendships of little girls, then they should hear them as they actually are and not as they expect them to be.

Something is not OK just because it is not sexual. It’s not OK to take other people’s stories and re-write them in a way that makes the audience more happy or comfortable, even if it’s supposedly “innocent”, because people take that expectation and think it’s how things should be in real life.

Like, OK, if anybody’s read the Fruits Basket manga- Tohru, Hanajima, and Uotani have something much closer to a real friendship. It’s stylized and often really dramatic things happen, but it’s much, much closer to real experiences than what you see on shows that are bating males. Their closeness is exemplified through dialogue, sacrifices, doing things together, and constantly looking out for each other- not random touching and blushing, although both of those probably happen. They even share a bed at one point (which isn’t really unrealistic), but the focus is always on the genuine struggles of their lives, and how their friendship helps them through the tough times. That’s what I like seeing. It’s framed as an important relationship, but it’s portrayed differently from Tohru’s relationships with Kyo and Yuki.

 

[Tenofovir]

I’m not against blushing or touching per se. I’m against framing friendships in the same way as romantic relationships. It’s weird. I don’t know how it is in Japan, but where I’m from people don’t really touch their friends a lot outside of maybe hugs. I don’t even hug my friends, but I do spend a lot of time with them and have intense discussions, and those friendships are really important to me. They are close, but I don’t think it would be possible to frame them as “romantic”.

I think hugging and touching in the most casual Western way would illicit such blushing too. That’s my point.

Yes, exactly. I want to see close female friendships, but I want the focus to be on the friendship of the girls, and not baiting a male audience with subtext.

Yes and I agree. The subtext of possible ero lesbian stuff is not appropriate. If it’s there it doesn’t bait me though. I can’t help that sometimes the director/producer use this as a selling point for perverts. We can roll our eyes or just accept it as part of the “genre”. It’s there to sell DVDs/Blurays.

Yeah, but it’s really suspicious if they’re consistently projecting themselves onto little girls who do not act like actual little girls. It’s not wrong, per se, but it’s a shallow approximation of real life without all the power of a real friendship. Just because it’s not sexual doesn’t mean it’s good or helpful. If they actually want to hear the stories about the friendships of little girls, then they should hear them as they actually are and not as they expect them to be.

Yeah but anime stuff is mostly escapism and fantasy. Certainly the characters don’t behave like real people for the most part. The stories are not world literature/height of psychology. They’re mostly soap opera stuff. And they’re terribly formula driven and stereotypical.

Something is not OK just because it is not sexual. It’s not OK to take other people’s stories and re-write them in a way that makes the audience more happy or comfortable, even if it’s supposedly “innocent”, because people take that expectation and think it’s how things should be in real life.

What do you mean re-write? Do you mean re-writes of manga? It’s done with the writer’s permission.

Like, OK, if anybody’s read the Fruits Basket manga- Tohru, Hanajima, and Uotani have something much closer to a real friendship. It’s stylized and often really dramatic things happen, but it’s much, much closer to real experiences than what you see on shows that are bating males. Their closeness is exemplified through dialogue, sacrifices, doing things together, and constantly looking out for each other- not random touching and blushing, although both of those probably happen. They even share a bed at one point (which isn’t really unrealistic), but the focus is always on the genuine struggles of their lives, and how their friendship helps them through the tough times. That’s what I like seeing. It’s framed as an important relationship, but it’s portrayed differently from Tohru’s relationships with Kyo and Yuki.

Have not watched so cannot comment.

 

[Kamaduck]

I think hugging and touching in the most casual Western way would illicit such blushing too. That’s my point.

Yes and I agree. The subtext of possible ero lesbian stuff is not appropriate. If it’s there it doesn’t bait me though. I can’t help that sometimes the director/producer use this as a selling point for perverts. We can roll our eyes or just accept it as part of the “genre”. It’s there to sell DVDs/Blurays.

Yeah but anime stuff is mostly escapism and fantasy. Certainly the characters don’t behave like real people for the most part. The stories are not world literature/height of psychology. They’re mostly soap opera stuff. And they’re terribly formula driven and stereotypical.

What do you mean re-write? Do you mean re-writes of manga? It’s done with the writer’s permission.

Have not watched so cannot comment.

OK, let me see if I can explain this. I’m not sure I can, but I’ll try.

It’s creepy to consistently take someone else’s story- in this case, I’m referring to the lives and friendships of real-life girls, not any particular fictional story- and make it cater to someone else. I can’t think of that many close friendships in anime that are between girls with any degree of realism, but I see this yuri-bait stuff fairly frequently.

What that says on a societal level is that female friendships exist for males. They’re not worth writing about unless they can make some male otaku feel better about himself. If the only time I see close girl friendships is when they’re there as bait for perverts (or for men who feel lonely, or for men in general), that causes people to see a friendship between two girls as existing only to please males. It makes the experiences of males seem more important than the experiences of actual girls.

I realize it’s a business strategy, but just because something is profitable doesn’t mean it’s good for society, or that we can’t critique it.

Put another way- if anime is solely about escapism, as you claim (I don’t think it always is, but a lot of it is), then why is the escapism of men more important than everyone else’s, to the point that there seem to be waaay more stories about young women that cater to men than there are stories about young women that cater to actual young women?

I’m not by any means saying that we shouldn’t watch or buy any of those shows. I don’t think that something is good or useful just because it meets my barest moral requirements, but I also don’t think something is bad or useless just because it contributes to a few troubling trends in media. I just think it’s something we should talk about and be aware of, and not consume excessively. It doesn’t have to be all-or-nothing.

This kind of reminds me of Miyazaki’s recent critique of the anime industry that it’s full of otaku who are only concerned with wish-fulfillment and in-jokes. That’s not good or useful. People are making fiction solely based on what they want, not at all what things are actually like, and that makes it difficult to create anything good or truly inspiring. We’re selling the medium short if we say it has to be this way.

 

[CesarAugustus]

Yes romantic. But please remember it’s not immoral for there to be agape between two individuals, even of the same sex. It’s only sexual activity not limited to actual sex which is immoral. For example two lesbians who love each other, hold hands, cuddle in a non sexual way and so on, and swear to be inseparable forever so to say are not doing anything immoral. If they don’t have male company and never marry it’s not wrong per se.

I think that is dangerous for them. Romantic gestures, reserved for marriages, or hetero relationships, are not good for them. Is not only actual sex that is immoral for them.

I think the two are often difficult or impossible to tell apart. And I tend to be more charitable or maybe want the situations to be more innocent, and in fact I consider them so. Of course as said, if there is actual fondling and some such, that becomes immoral in an anime. My rationale being that young girls may often experiment - that does not mean have sex - but play out romantic relationships with other girls and then later grow out of that when they mature sexually enough to realise those boys are actually handsome princes and so on.

I don’t think is that difficult to tell them appart. What is the nature of the gestures? romantic? philial? eros?

The relationships you are describing (crushing on other girls, being romantic, and later switching to boys) souns like Japanese Class S relationships. I don’t think these are good either.

Would I write a story with young girls being romantically in love…? No. But would I write a story where they are inseparable and close and don’t care about boys – even swear to never leave each other – maybe. Of course I’d put in enough clues to show that they are not having lesbian relationships and that male interests are a (future) option - for example a declaration such as: “Promise me that we’ll stay together forever even after we marry and start our own families”.

Of course I’m not generally fond of such close relationships either, I would probably not write such stories, although in many an anime, Magical Girls or in main stream films or even in real life, we know that “Brothers in Arms” share special bonds, bonds which may sometimes be stronger than between them and their spouses, especially if they went through terrible things together.

I don’t have a problem with girl friendships. But romantic ones? yes, I don’t like these.

Not only for the intrinsic problems, with the current climate, these are obvious yuri-bait. And that is the way most writers use them. And they like to blurry the lines between close friendship and romantic relationships. These are popular.

 

[CesarAugustus]

I don’t really see anything wrong with having super close friendships, even without making the girls say that they’d like to get married someday. I’ve had friendships like that, and they’re wholly independent of whether or not I’d like to get married someday. I think it’s sad that inseparable female friends are assumed to be lesbians- these are experiences that many, if not most girls have, though it’s not as portrayed in anime most of the time. Too often these “romantic friendship” things are intended to bait a male audience. I want actual friendships, actual activities and working together and staying up late at night to discuss the future and whether either of you is ready for it. That’s what close friendships are, not scenes where one girl touches another and the second girl blushes and freaks out. I don’t have a problem with close girl friendships, I have a problem with the fake way that some stories frame them.

Well said, you nailed it. And these anime cotribute to the problem blurrying the lines. And with people in fandom prone to ejnoy these things (fujoshis, and yurifans [don’t know it there is a more precise term for them]), even a simple friendship is understood as something else. And close ones? even more. Is sad, because they are perverting something good, and making other types of love gravitate toward eros. Now even the incest line is crossed. I remember the times (2006-2007) when in anime forums yaoi and yuri weren’t mainstream and not many people was into these.

The fake stuff, is like the recent critic from hayao Miyazaki. Some directors, animators and writers don’t create realistic characters. These girls that have suggestive gestures, while not crossing the lesbian line (that is, not declaring themselves as such, or not framing their friendships as romantic couple situations -even when they are having couple-like behaviors-), are fanservice.

Oh, and I probably would be willing to write a story about girls who are romantically in love, because sometimes that happens. I’d just make it about the girls and their decisions, and paint their choices, good or bad, in a positive or negative light depending on what they do. I don’t think there are a whole lot of things, even sinful things, that we aren’t allowed to tell stories about. I don’t want there to be a ton of stories about that, but a few where the characters sacrifice their desires in order to do the right thing would be positive.

There are obvious thing one shouldn’t protray in productions, like erotic stuff, etc. Other sins need to be displayed as something bad, an not glamourize or normalize them.

With a story about two girls romantically involved, there are certain risks. For example.

Cutesy moe yuri series. Besides normalization, we have the problem of presenting them as something super cute and desirable. Affects men, and women too. I know about various cases of girls that became curious or even like to try the things they see in the moe yuri series. Why that happens? lack of good moral grounds, loneliness, problems with social relationships, lack of discerning and confusion about deep friendships and romantic relationships, etc.

Realistic approaches. These, if include normalization or glamourization, can be problematic too. And can make people support lgbt causes, etc (this can happen with the moe yuri series too).

So, how would you approach such productions?

Girls have close friendships fairly often. That doesn’t make them “romantic” per se. There are at least three kinds of love other than eros, and any of those can be shared between people of the same gender without sin. Those kinds of love are a good thing. I don’t know how we’re defining “romantic” in this conversation, but the only things that annoy me are unnecessary blushing and suggestive touching. It’s really common in anime and not common in real life, and I wish we had more shows with girls who are romantically disinterested but also really close to each other.

Yes, I dislike how close friendships between girls are being perveted. I know these are common among girls, and are not romantic. I think that one could define romantic gestures, as something that a girl wouldn’t try with her sisters or cousins. Suggestive touching, too much kisses in the cheeks, the way the look at the other, etc.

 

[CesarAugustus]

I’m not against blushing or touching per se. I’m against framing friendships in the same way as romantic relationships. It’s weird. I don’t know how it is in Japan, but where I’m from people don’t really touch their friends a lot outside of maybe hugs. I don’t even hug my friends, but I do spend a lot of time with them and have intense discussions, and those friendships are really important to me. They are close, but I don’t think it would be possible to frame them as “romantic”.

Maybe in the west, people interpret blusing as something different from what Tenofovir explains.

Where I’m from, people is more touchy-feely. More than me. Sometimes even acquaintances like to touch me in the arm, and hugs are common among girls. Even some people poke (I find that annoying most of the time) or touch others when having a conversation, or to put emphasis in a point they are making.

Tenofovir;11821478:

I agree that there are many types of love. And I largely agree with you. One should be cautious to reject the genuine erotic but not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Yes, exactly. I want to see close female friendships, but I want the focus to be on the friendship of the girls, and not baiting a male audience with subtext.

Yes, I don’t like how some authors use girl friendships and the cuteness of the girls (obviously is not wrong that the girls are cute) as possible yuri bait.

Yeah, but it’s really suspicious if they’re consistently projecting themselves onto little girls who do not act like actual little girls. It’s not wrong, per se, but it’s a shallow approximation of real life without all the power of a real friendship. Just because it’s not sexual doesn’t mean it’s good or helpful. If they actually want to hear the stories about the friendships of little girls, then they should hear them as they actually are and not as they expect them to be.

Something is not OK just because it is not sexual. It’s not OK to take other people’s stories and re-write them in a way that makes the audience more happy or comfortable, even if it’s supposedly “innocent”, because people take that expectation and think it’s how things should be in real life.

Unrealistic expectations are a problem in some anime productions. Filling a lack of significant interactions with other people with something that is going to be very unrealistic, could have repercusions for the posibilities of making better relationships. Imagine if someone was to take harem anime as a guide.

OK, let me see if I can explain this. I’m not sure I can, but I’ll try.

It’s creepy to consistently take someone else’s story- in this case, I’m referring to the lives and friendships of real-life girls, not any particular fictional story- and make it cater to someone else. I can’t think of that many close friendships in anime that are between girls with any degree of realism, but I see this yuri-bait stuff fairly frequently.

I’m watching a series that is very realistic. I was suprised how believable are the characters. Including the relationships between girls. Without yuri subtext.

What that says on a societal level is that female friendships exist for males. They’re not worth writing about unless they can make some male otaku feel better about himself. If the only time I see close girl friendships is when they’re there as bait for perverts (or for men who feel lonely, or for men in general), that causes people to see a friendship between two girls as existing only to please males. It makes the experiences of males seem more important than the experiences of actual girls.

Well, that doesn’t happens only with girls. Shonen productions have been catering recently to fujoshis. Even some series are being build around these types of subtext. Male friendship is used as bait for perverts too. And for the numbers or populatiry of fandoms, yaoi fandom is bigger.

I realize it’s a business strategy, but just because something is profitable doesn’t mean it’s good for society, or that we can’t critique it.

And not only business strategies. Normalization and social engineering can apply in various cases.

I’m not by any means saying that we shouldn’t watch or buy any of those shows. I don’t think that something is good or useful just because it meets my barest moral requirements, but I also don’t think something is bad or useless just because it contributes to a few troubling trends in media. I just think it’s something we should talk about and be aware of, and not consume excessively. It doesn’t have to be all-or-nothing.

This conversation about yuri has resulted better that the recent ones in the other thread, I think. We are speking about the core of the problem more. I think that if something contributes to a troubling trend, be should be extra cautious. And yes, something is not great because it pass the minimum requirements.

This kind of reminds me of Miyazaki’s recent critique of the anime industry that it’s full of otaku who are only concerned with wish-fulfillment and in-jokes. That’s not good or useful. People are making fiction solely based on what they want, not at all what things are actually like, and that makes it difficult to create anything good or truly inspiring. We’re selling the medium short if we say it has to be this way.

Yes, that was a sharp critique. Real life doesn’t work like fanservicey or ecchi anime, for example.

 

[CesarAugustus]

Japanese are often very reserved and stoic. So touching will make people blush. It’s not that it’s something sexually exciting but it’s something emotionally intense. So I’m not against blushing. Suggestive touching that’s a bit different but ordinary or even close touching like holding hands or pecking on the cheek (kiss) is not suggestive. These are visual representations of close bonding. They’re there because in subsequent episodes that closeness will be shaken or even broken by betrayal or misunderstanding and so on.

I understand that. As I said in an earlier reply, problematic interactions would be ones that go beyond philial, or agape love.

I agree that there are many types of love. And I largely agree with you. One should be cautious to reject the genuine erotic but not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Also we must remember that the audience usually is male otaku. The two girls who are close are really surrogates for the audience member in a way. Often the otaku viewer is lonely and would like such a companion. And in most cases this is not sexual.

That phenomenon occurs too with female otaku and shonen series.

I think hugging and touching in the most casual Western way would illicit such blushing too. That’s my point.

Maybe, but I’m not sure if it would be the same way with more touchy-feely people.

Yeah but anime stuff is mostly escapism and fantasy. Certainly the characters don’t behave like real people for the most part. The stories are not world literature/height of psychology. They’re mostly soap opera stuff. And they’re terribly formula driven and stereotypical.

Various series could benefit with more realistic characters. One thing is having fantasy like characters, or unrealistic elements, but there is a point when is too much, or can be detrimental, like the case of fanservice filled ecchi series.

 

[Kamaduck]

There are obvious thing one shouldn’t protray in productions, like erotic stuff, etc. Other sins need to be displayed as something bad, an not glamourize or normalize them.

With a story about two girls romantically involved, there are certain risks. For example.

Cutesy moe yuri series. Besides normalization, we have the problem of presenting them as something super cute and desirable. Affects men, and women too. I know about various cases of girls that became curious or even like to try the things they see in the moe yuri series. Why that happens? lack of good moral grounds, loneliness, problems with social relationships, lack of discerning and confusion about deep friendships and romantic relationships, etc.

Realistic approaches. These, if include normalization or glamourization, can be problematic too. And can make people support lgbt causes, etc (this can happen with the moe yuri series too).

So, how would you approach such productions?

Well, I think the simple answer is not to normalize or glamorize it. If I were writing a story about two girls who fell in love, it would be from a Catholic perspective, and one or both of the girls would likely be Catholic or belong to another Christian denomination that did not condone homosexuality. They would have to struggle with what to do with their feelings. They would probably have to make sacrifices, and break off or not start the relationship in the first place. It would be a difficult story to tell, because we’re conditioned to believe that a happy ending requires romantic fulfillment. Not everyone gets that in real life, though, and that doesn’t mean they’re miserable. So it stands to reason that one can tell a story about a lesbian girl who does the right thing and does what is best for herself and the girl that she loves. Just because I’ve never seen it done doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t be a good story. It just has to be handled responsibly.

Yes, I dislike how close friendships between girls are being perveted. I know these are common among girls, and are not romantic. I think that one could define romantic gestures, as something that a girl wouldn’t try with her sisters or cousins. Suggestive touching, too much kisses in the cheeks, the way the look at the other, etc.

That’s a good way of drawing a line, provided the people discussing it understand healthy family dynamics.

Maybe in the west, people interpret blusing as something different from what Tenofovir explains.

Where I’m from, people is more touchy-feely. More than me. Sometimes even acquaintances like to touch me in the arm, and hugs are common among girls. Even some people poke (I find that annoying most of the time) or touch others when having a conversation, or to put emphasis in a point they are making.

I can see that. But I figure that if touching isn’t common in Japan, it shouldn’t be so common in media. And if it is, then it shouldn’t elicit extreme reactions. They can’t have it both ways.

I’m watching a series that is very realistic. I was suprised how believable are the characters. Including the relationships between girls. Without yuri subtext.

Ooh, what are you watching?

Well, that doesn’t happens only with girls. Shonen productions have been catering recently to fujoshis. Even some series are being build around these types of subtext. Male friendship is used as bait for perverts too. And for the numbers or populatiry of fandoms, yaoi fandom is bigger.

I think the difference between moe and shonen is that most of the time, boys are still the core audience of yaoi-baiting shows, while the core audience of a true moe show is, as I understand it, always adult men. That’s true even when there isn’t much yuri-baiting; the innocence of the girls and the cuteness of the designs is meant to appeal to male viewers, not females.

Yaoi fandom is bigger and more active because most of what the fans want is produced in the fans themselves- fujoshi are going to spend a lot more time reading Naturo fanfic than watching the actual show. Whereas with moe and yuri, the producers center the show around the audience that wants that. Fandom doesn’t have to do much of anything, because the creators have already made it. So while fujoshi are a problem (and they’re a creepy problem), they don’t have the same level of backing from the shows themselves (most of the time). There’s a reason why Free! was so controversial, when shows with gender-swapped premises are a dime a dozen.

And not only business strategies. Normalization and social engineering can apply in various cases.

This conversation about yuri has resulted better that the recent ones in the other thread, I think. We are speking about the core of the problem more. I think that if something contributes to a troubling trend, be should be extra cautious. And yes, something is not great because it pass the minimum requirements.

Basically, media that we consume always deserves to be discussed and critiqued. I agree that we should be very careful about such things. I’m just prone to finding flaws with many things, and I definitely don’t think that every moral flaw means we can’t watch something. I think we should be aware of the flaws and good points, and choose our media accordingly.

Yes, that was a sharp critique. Real life doesn’t work like fanservicey or ecchi anime, for example.

Yes. We can use media to portray a better world, but using it to create a world where we get everything we want at the expense of everyone else is shallow, unhealthy, and bound to get old eventually. Miyazaki understands how to use fantasy and escapism for good, giving people fun worlds to explore while also bringing up challenges.