Another kind of Cafeteria Catholic?

[CMatt25]

Are you not aware that the issues involved here do not begin and end with 2267?

This is an opinion based on a perception of the capabilities of the penal systems in modern nations; it is not a declaration of a moral law.

2267 is an anomaly in Church teaching on capital punishment and can only be incorporated with everything else she teaches by seeing it as the prudential belief that, in current society, it does more harm than good. That is, it is a prudential choice, not a moral law.

Ender

It might not even be the only anomaly in the catechism as I read and study. But most certainly believe as your conscience guides you. Even the catechism tells us we must abide by our consciences so as not to be condemned. Yes perhaps another anomaly. But if killing a known human born being does more harm than good, I’ll choose the route of less harm. Nevertheless God bless you on your journey of faith and peace.

 

[Ender]

It might not even be the only anomaly in the catechism as I read and study. But most certainly believe as your conscience guides you. Even the catechism tells us we must abide by our consciences so as not to be condemned.

I don’t dispute this but I try to avoid acting on my personal inclinations against the teaching of the Church. The fact that my conscience may approve of my choice does not necessarily mean either that that choice is correct or that I won’t be held accountable for making it should it turn out to be wrong.

But if killing a known human born being does more harm than good, I’ll choose the route of less harm.

I would make the same choice; I think the dispute is over which option is more beneficial. I do not accept the assumption that in virtually all cases the death penalty is harmful to society, and I certainly don’t accept that its use is immoral, in our society or any other.

Ender

 

[vera_dicere]

Its generally cheaper to keep someoen in prison for life then it is to execute them, especially in America as all the legal fees and appeals of a death row inmate aren’t cheap.

The problem as I see it, is that prisons are too cushy. Bring back bread and water with a slice of sausage if they’re lucky and decent hard labour. None of this underfloor heating, millions of dollars spent on landscaping, medical degrees, broad band internet rubbish - like what has been revealed in New Zealand prisons.

I honestly wish the Catholic Church would say “enough is enough, the DP is not a credible means of protecting society”. And the facts prove that. Not to mention the many many innocent people who’ve been murdered by a revenge seeking State. That’s one of the reasons its illegal in NZL, some poor schmuck got hanged for something he didn’t do.

Of course, if you wanna save money, do what China does, shoot the guy in the head, send the bill for the bullet to the family and scoope out their organs and sell them to wealthy foreigners.

You can reverse a life imprisonment sentence, you can’t reverse an execution.

 

[CMatt25]

Its generally cheaper to keep someoen in prison for life then it is to execute them, especially in America as all the legal fees and appeals of a death row inmate aren’t cheap.

The problem as I see it, is that prisons are too cushy. Bring back bread and water with a slice of sausage if they’re lucky and decent hard labour. None of this underfloor heating, millions of dollars spent on landscaping, medical degrees, broad band internet rubbish - like what has been revealed in New Zealand prisons.

I honestly wish the Catholic Church would say “enough is enough, the DP is not a credible means of protecting society”. And the facts prove that. Not to mention the many many innocent people who’ve been murdered by a revenge seeking State. That’s one of the reasons its illegal in NZL, some poor schmuck got hanged for something he didn’t do.

Of course, if you wanna save money, do what China does, shoot the guy in the head, send the bill for the bullet to the family and scoope out their organs and sell them to wealthy foreigners.

You can reverse a life imprisonment sentence, you can’t reverse an execution.

well said

 

[estesbob]

I don’t dispute this but I try to avoid acting on my personal inclinations against the teaching of the Church. The fact that my conscience may approve of my choice does not necessarily mean either that that choice is correct or that I won’t be held accountable for making it should it turn out to be wrong.

I would make the same choice; I think the dispute is over which option is more beneficial. I do not accept the assumption that in virtually all cases the death penalty is harmful to society, and I certainly don’t accept that its use is immoral, in our society or any other.

Ender

It is sad to see how many times the “primacy of conscience” canard comes up in Catholic forums. You are correct that just because our conscience tells us something is right did not make it moral. Generally when you see the primacy of conscience mentioned it is a Catholic" trying to justify rejecting the teachings of the church in order to embrace their polical views.

Although I oppose capital punishment in all cases I also recognize that the Catholic Church does now and always has allowed for capital punishment. Be Benedict himself made it crystal clear that this is an issue a Catholic is free to disagree with him on. To call a Catholi who supports capital punishment a “cafeteria” Catholic is utter nonsense.

 

[Adeodatus]

I don’t understand how anyone but an atheist would think that life in prison is preferable to a death sentence. I’d rather have death: just give me a chance to confess my sins to the priest first. If I have just confessed, what do I care if you shoot me?

“He that loveth his life shall lose it”… does not the Christian always stand ready to recklessly throw away his life for Christ? And if a Christian commits a serious crime that demands capital punishment, should he not in contrition make his confession and accept the penalty?

A life in prison could lead to bitterness and hollowness. What a terrible fate! Better to die while your blood is still warm.

 

[manualman]

According to your faith he submitted to it even though he was innocent.

Your argument could be used to justify execution of the innocent. Not to mention torture.

Blatant trollism. Did you even read the previous posts?

Catholic teaching is EXPLICIT that the death penalty is NOT inherently evil. It’s inappropriate use is evil. Evaluating WHEN it is evil and not is specifically something catholics are SUPPOSED to do. This puts it in an entirely different category from inherently evil things that certain groups spend enormous amounts of time and energy arguing that bad is good, or at least acceptable in some circumstances.

And for the record, I agree with recent popes who argue that today’s penal systems make the DP obsolete and inappropriate. I tend to suggest that my catholic brothers not dismiss the prudential judgement of popes lightly. I learned that one some years back when I disagreed with a pope on the evaluation of the “justness” of a pending war…

 

[manualman]

Blatant trollism. Did you even read the previous posts?

Oops, I quoted the wrong cyberwolf post. Too late to edit!

 

[CMatt25]

It is sad to see how many times the “primacy of conscience” canard comes up in Catholic forums. You are correct that just because our conscience tells us something is right did not make it moral. Generally when you see the primacy of conscience mentioned it is a Catholic" trying to justify rejecting the teachings of the church in order to embrace their polical views.

Although I oppose capital punishment in all cases I also recognize that the Catholic Church does now and always has allowed for capital punishment. Be Benedict himself made it crystal clear that this is an issue a Catholic is free to disagree with him on. To call a Catholi who supports capital punishment a “cafeteria” Catholic is utter nonsense.

Free to disagree on this particular life and death issue it seems to me is part of the problem. On an issue of life and death such as capital punishment, I would think the Church would take a much firmer position in opposition to state mandated killng. I don’t buy into the innocent vs non-innocent argument. There is no doubt we are talking about born human beings here. Yet She manages to take stronger positions on other matters within the state arena.

Reasons I too oppose the death penalty in all cases include on the grounds of 2 wrongs don’t make a right, Matt 5:38,39, and the fact juries can be wrong. And as another poster said life imprisonment can be overturned in such a case. A death sentence once executed, can not be.

I only wish our Church would see to do the same.

Peace

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Are catholics supposed to disagree with the bishops and the pope on things that they define, if its not infallible?

 

[estesbob]

Are catholics supposed to disagree with the bishops and the pope on things that they define, if its not infallible?

Catholics should adhere to the doctrines of the Church. That does not mean, however, that a Catholic is required to support the death penalty even though the Church allows for it.

 

[JimG]

Recent popes have discouraged the use of the death penalty on the basis that modern penal systems provide for the protection of society without recourse to the death penalty.

The only disagreement I might have with this is whether in fact modern penal systems DO provide for the safety of society without recourse to the death penalty. A penal system includes the applicable laws, the restrictions imposed by the legal system and the courts, the widespread use of plea-bargains in order to obtain sentences, as well as the corrections system which usually has total control over prisoners once convicted by the courts.

I would gladly forgo the use of the death penalty if for no other reason than that it is by far the most expensive kind of criminal case to pursue. Appeals are mandatory, rules of evidence are stricter. Sometimes juries insist on imposing a death sentence because of the particular horror of a crime, but that causes the appeals process to be stretched out for decades, with taxpayers paying the cost of lawyers.

But the alternative of a lesser sentence quite often means that the court has no means to ensure the continued incarceration of the prisoner. That is up to the corrections system.

I’m just wondering whether the recent popes studied in detail the actual workings of the legal system before making this prudential judgment.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Recent popes have discouraged the use of the death penalty on the basis that modern penal systems provide for the protection of society without recourse to the death penalty.

Isn’t that like saying “recent popes have claimed that life is sacred from conception, but I’m not so sure myself…”

 

[Ender]

Are catholics supposed to disagree with the bishops and the pope on things that they define, if its not infallible?

On infallible teachings:*

When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine “for belief as being divinely revealed,” and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions “must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.”* (CCC 891)

On fallible ones:

To this ordinary teaching the faithful “are to adhere to it with religious assent” which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it. (CCC 892)

On opinions:

the Pope and the bishops have to rely on their personal judgment as qualified spiritual leaders in making practical applications. Their prudential judgment, while it is to be respected, is not a matter of binding Catholic doctrine. To differ from such a judgment, therefore, is not to dissent from Church teaching. (Cardinal Dulles, 2001)

Ender

 

[canadianguy1143]

I don’t understand how anyone but an atheist would think that life in prison is preferable to a death sentence. I’d rather have death: just give me a chance to confess my sins to the priest first. If I have just confessed, what do I care if you shoot me?

“He that loveth his life shall lose it”… does not the Christian always stand ready to recklessly throw away his life for Christ? And if a Christian commits a serious crime that demands capital punishment, should he not in contrition make his confession and accept the penalty?

A life in prison could lead to bitterness and hollowness. What a terrible fate! Better to die while your blood is still warm.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to live. Should Catholics have praised the Nazi’s during WW2 when led to the Gas Chambers? Hardly!

 

[Neil_Anthony]

On infallible teachings:*

When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine “for belief as being divinely revealed,” and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions “must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.”* (CCC 891)

On fallible ones:

To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent" which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it. (CCC 892)

On opinions:

the Pope and the bishops have to rely on their personal judgment as qualified spiritual leaders in making practical applications. Their prudential judgment, while it is to be respected, is not a matter of binding Catholic doctrine. To differ from such a judgment, therefore, is not to dissent from Church teaching. (Cardinal Dulles, 2001)

Ender

Thank you, so is the teaching on capital punishment a fallible teaching or an opinion?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

The death penalty sounds good to me. I live in California where we have the death penalty but you sit on death row for 50 years before you finally are brought to the lethal injection stage. With all the murderers, child molestors, car-jackers, and other goons filling California prisons to capacity, we need a fast-track to the needle. I don’t have a problem with it. The term “Cafeteria Catholic” has become so cliche, milked to death, and the very arrogant “I’m following ALL the rules and you’re not! I’m a real Catholic but you’re a phony poser!” speech really gets OLD…It sounds like something the Pharisees of their day would love to add to their lexicon…

 

[CMatt25]

Thank you, so is the teaching on capital punishment a fallible teaching or an opinion?

2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined,the traditional **teaching **of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, nonlethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity are very rare, if not practically nonexistent

Says it’s a teaching here. So it appears the Catholic who goes around professing to follow all teaching should probably not be advocating for the death penalty in hardly any cases at all. If at all. Certainly to adhere to all teaching would preclude a general support of the death penalty it would appear to me from this text. But in my experience the Church in more recent yrs has emphasized other issues with capital punishment having taken a backseat. So perhaps this is a reason why the most faithful among us don’t understand they are not to support the general or common use of the death penalty if they desire to remain among the most faithful adherants to teaching.

Unless of course teachings are now opinions.

 

[estesbob]

Thank you, so is the teaching on capital punishment a fallible teaching or an opinion?

It is an infallible teaching. The idea that it should be rare to non-existent is the opinion of the current Magestrium.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

It is an infallible teaching.

Then everyone MUST hold to this idea to be catholic? Or did you make a typo, do you mean FALLIBLE teaching, so you can disagree with the church’s teaching against capital punishment?