Another Question About Hell

Status
Not open for further replies.
OM77, amigo,

Whether you consider contraception to be ok does not make it a minor sin. You and I do not make that judgement. God does, through His Church.

Your version of Christian human eschatology completely ignores Purgatory, and the graduations of reward in Heaven. JP2 will have a high place in eternity not because he did good works, but because of his closeness to God, which led him to do good works. The repentant killer while he may achieve life everlasting, will not be “right beside” him.

You say that a juvenile cannot deserve to land in Hell. I say that youths can do rather nasty things (drug dealers, gangland thugs, high school bullies, etc) and that being young is not in itself an excuse for wrongdoing.

The Church does recognize an “age of responsibility,” but that falls in early childhood.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA
 
GEddie said:
OM77, amigo,

Whether you consider contraception to be ok does not make it a minor sin. You and I do not make that judgement. God does, through His Church.

Your version of Christian human eschatology completely ignores Purgatory, and the graduations of reward in Heaven. JP2 will have a high place in eternity not because he did good works, but because of his closeness to God, which led him to do good works. The repentant killer while he may achieve life everlasting, will not be “right beside” him.

You say that a juvenile cannot deserve to land in Hell. I say that youths can do rather nasty things (drug dealers, gangland thugs, high school bullies, etc) and that being young is not in itself an excuse for wrongdoing.

The Church does recognize an “age of responsibility,” but that falls in early childhood.

God Bless and ICXC NIKA
Click to expand...
Tell me about the ‘age of responsibility’ - below what age is a person not eligible for eternal hell? Do they just automatically go to heaven if they die below that age (with a brief stint in purgatory maybe)?
 
Jon_S said:
…Further, the Catholic Church does not speculate in who is in he’ll and hopes no one will be in hell.
Click to expand...
but it never condemned Dante for placing half the Italian politicians in Hell.
 
openmind77 said:
Tell me about the ‘age of responsibility’ - below what age is a person not eligible for eternal hell? Do they just automatically go to heaven if they die below that age (with a brief stint in purgatory maybe)?
Click to expand...
The Church has not defined a calendrical age for responsibility; many priests use seven years, the period of young childhood prior to being able to understand sin.

It is after the age of seven years that the Sacrament of Penance is given.

Of course, someone who is developmentally or mentally disabled may be older before they are responsible for sin (or may never get there).

And yes, a child who dies prior to that age will, if baptized, be in Heaven. No Purgatory will be required, as they bore no guilt of sin.

ICXC NIKA
 
openmind77 said:
I think these two cases are vastly different - I hope God thinks so too. Actually, I think the only way to serve God is by serving other human beings (but we can keep that for a separate thread). But according to the Church - as long as the murderer repents that is enough to avoid hell and get into heaven (no act of service in required), while an unrepentant sinner (of a relatively minor mortal sin) may have to suffer in hell for eternity
Click to expand...
There is a difference in the degree or level of blessedness for those in heaven.
Mt. 16:27 “He will render to every one according to his works.”
1 Cor 3:8 “And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour”.
2 Cor 9:6 "The point is this: he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. "

Likewise, the punishment of the damned in hell is also proportionate. From Dr. Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:St. Augustine teaches “In their wretchednesss the lot of some of the damned will be more tolerable than that of others” (Enchir. III). …
 
Fairwinds said:
but it never condemned Dante for placing half the Italian politicians in Hell.
Click to expand...
This sets up a lot of jokes including:
. . . because he was being generous and merciful.
or perhaps
. . . They were a better lot than our current batch.
 
Aloysium said:
This sets up a lot of jokes including:
. . . because he was being generous and merciful.
or perhaps
. . . They were a better lot than our current batch.
Click to expand...
the libel laws were looser in the 14th century.
 
fhansen said:
We’re already separated from God in this life, or at least somewhere halfway between heaven and hell; certainly it’s not heaven here in any case. Even though He sustains our every moment of life, even tho “in Him we live, and move, and have our being” whether we know it or not, and whether we like it or not, we’re nonetheless born without any immediate knowledge of God, born emotionally and intellectually separated from Him, with all the human angst, pain, and misery we all share with each other to one degree or another being the result.
Click to expand...
Is our separation from G-d on Earth due to original sin?
 
openmind77 said:
StrawberryJam, I am afraid you are completely wrong. It is not God’s fault that the Catholic beliefs about heaven and hell are so ridiculous.

For instance, according to Church teachings, hell is full of unrepentant contraceptive users and unrepentant adulterers, but a repentant murderer can go to heaven and sit next to John Paul II.

I have come to the conclusion that the Catholics do not believe in a just, fair or even rational God - the loving, merciful God taught by Jesus. They believe in the violent, irrational God of the Old Testament.
Click to expand...
However, the G-d of the Hebrew Bible is neither violent nor irrational, if one studies and correctly interprets the verses of the Hebrew Bible. The G-d of the OT and the NT is an all-merciful G-d, even though Catholics and Jews have quite different ideas with respect to redemption and salvation.
 
meltzerboy said:
However, the G-d of the Hebrew Bible is neither violent nor irrational, if one studies and correctly interprets the verses of the Hebrew Bible. The G-d of the OT and the NT is an all-merciful G-d.
Click to expand...
quick question… why are you spelling “God” with a hyphen?
 
meltzerboy said:
In writing, it is customary to abbreviate the name or spelling of G-d so that one does not inadvertently or intentionally delete the name. It is also a sign of respect and awe.
Click to expand...
thanks for the explanation.
 
GEddie said:
The Church has not defined a calendrical age for responsibility; many priests use seven years, the period of young childhood prior to being able to understand sin.

It is after the age of seven years that the Sacrament of Penance is given.

Of course, someone who is developmentally or mentally disabled may be older before they are responsible for sin (or may never get there).

And yes, a child who dies prior to that age will, if baptized, be in Heaven. No Purgatory will be required, as they bore no guilt of sin.

ICXC NIKA
Click to expand...
OK, in that case, I believe and I hope that all rational, decent human agree that is is unjust to send **any **eight year old to eternal hell or not to send **any **unbaptized baby to something other eternal place (other than heaven).
 
Nita said:
There is a difference in the degree or level of blessedness for those in heaven.
Mt. 16:27 “He will render to every one according to his works.”
1 Cor 3:8 “And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour”.
2 Cor 9:6 "The point is this: he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. "

Likewise, the punishment of the damned in hell is also proportionate. From Dr. Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma:St. Augustine teaches “In their wretchednesss the lot of some of the damned will be more tolerable than that of others” (Enchir. III). …
Click to expand...
I am not sure how much difference there is between being burnt by a small flame or a really big painful one, when both are for eternity.
 
meltzerboy said:
However, the G-d of the Hebrew Bible is neither violent nor irrational, if one studies and correctly interprets the verses of the Hebrew Bible. The G-d of the OT and the NT is an all-merciful G-d, even though Catholics and Jews have quite different ideas with respect to redemption and salvation.
Click to expand...
I think killing 70000 people because somebody conducted a census is pretty irrational and violent. Jesus and the New Testament would never suggest that such a thing is possible. So there is a big difference between the God of the New Testament - a loving, merciful one and the Old Testament - a violent, vengeful and irrational God,

But according to the Church both of them think that it is OK to send children and unrepentant adults to eternal hell for relatively minor mortal sins.
 
openmind77 said:
I think killing 70000 people because somebody conducted a census is pretty irrational and violent. Jesus and the New Testament would never suggest that such a thing is possible. So there is a big difference between the God of the New Testament - a loving, merciful one and the Old Testament - a violent, vengeful and irrational God,

But according to the Church both of them think that it is OK to send children and unrepentant adults to eternal hell for relatively minor mortal sins.
Click to expand...
Judaism does not have the same beliefs regarding salvation and mortal sins, although there are also different categories of sin. Your description of the OT G-d is superficial and inaccurate. The passages you refer to and others must be read and interpreted carefully, in context, and with attention to literary style and the use of metaphor. Jewish scholars as well as Orthodox Jews who devote their lives to studying the Hebrew Bible, in particular the Torah, guided by the Talmud and the Kabbalah, understand the complexity of textual analysis and hidden meanings. I suppose it’s the same interpreting the more profound passages from Hindu sacred texts.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top