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Lampo
Guest
My wife and I received a dispensation to be married outside the Church. Our marriage is sacramental. I am a cradle Catholic and have had a renewed conversion towards my faith since we got married. It happened during the process of having our child baptized. He wasn’t baptized Catholic because of my ignorance at the time. I also have a strong suspicion my wife is not familiar with Eph. 5:24 or what her church says about it.
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Feanaro_s_Wife
Guest
I’m sorry. What a sad situation for your family. I hope you can find a good priest and figure out what your role is now that you feel pulled back “home”.
Malia
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maria29
Guest
**When you and your husband have a disagreement does he respectfully listen to what you have to say? So when you start to get into a discussion you already know that its going to be whatever your husband wants it to be?While I have a fairly good understanding of this concept when replying to others’ thread about wifely submission, I am having a little trouble objectively applying it to myself and my own marriage.
I know that as long as the husband is acting out of Christ like love that wives are called to sumit to his authority because he has their best interests at heart.
But when and where do you draw the line? How do you keep it from becoming an issue of power?
For example, my husband is under the impression that he should have the final say in all disagreements (major/minor and spritual/secular). As long as he is not advocating something immoral then I should always submit to his ideas and opinions.
I have a problem with this. Now I need honest feedback from all of you (bracing myself…) because I really want to know if I am letting my pride get in the way. I just think that if things are always going to be done his way then why should I have an opinion or idea of my own? I am starting to feel a little oppressed and I don’t like it one bit. I find myself not bringing up things that are really bothering me or ideas if I feel they will lead to a “discussion”. It always seems to lead to a not so charitable talk.
So I feel like I have to stuff down my views and just go with his to keep the peace. Mainly I do it for the sake of my darling little girl because marital tension is never good for kids.
I would love to hear you opinions and advice (just please try to be nice). I want to be the best example of a faithful Catholic wife to my daughter but am confused if that means that I should just let my hubby always have his way or stand up for myself.
Malia
Personally i think thats really hard then to have open communication since you feel what you say doesn’t have any effect on anything. Is he ever willing to comprise at all?**
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Feanaro_s_Wife
Guest
He is willing to compromise IF he understands my point of view. It’s when he doesn’t understand that it leads to problems. He needs to learn to trust in me a little more and realize that he is called to love me even if he doesn’t understand me. It’s a lot like our faith. There are many aspects that we don’t understand, but that doesn’t mean that we don’t believe.
And when we get into a discussion about a disageement, he assumes that if we can’t agree then it will be done his way out of respect. If I try to convince him that my way is also valid then I get accused of “wanting things my own way all the time” and being controlling.
Malia
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sanctareparata
Guest
Don’t let her see either, in my opinion. When dh and I have disagreements or need something to be resolved, we make sure to never broach or resolve the subject in front of the kids. (Not that they’re old enough to really understand, but we figure we may as well get in the habit of it now).That’s where I need clarity. I have a strong personality and have definite opinions. But I am also flexible. I definitely want my daughter to see me stand up for myself…but I don’t want her to see me being pushy. It’s a fine line that I can’t seem to comprehend
Malia
For example, if dh is disciplining a child in a way I don’t feel is appropriate, I’ll ask him about it later and give him ideas to act differently in the future. And if he isn’t happy with something I’m doing, he doesn’t bring it up there in front of the kids, but later.
I don’t have time to say much else but in our relationship, it is not a guarantee that dh gets the final say. When he wanted to pursue a policer officer profession, for instance, I dug my heels into the ground and said absolutely not, and only after talking and talking (and fighting and crying) about it over a few weeks did he finally understand where I was coming from. Today he’s a paramedic working on becoming a fireman and thanks me very often for talking him out of being a cop. He knows now it wasn’t the right career for him - something I knew immediately.
And there have been times in our early marriage where (because I manage the books since he doesn’t want to) I literally took the debit card away from him. He wouldn’t check the finances and overspend, thus casting us into the red several times, in spite of my asking him to “check the books!”
However, in all things spiritual and prayerful and such and for big decisions (car, moving, remodeling expenses, etc) we’ll talk about things but I always give him the final say, unless it’s clear to me that his final say will hurt us more than help us. Then we talk (and talk and talk) so I can get him to see where I’m coming from.
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sanctareparata
Guest
Here’s a good homily on this:
ewtn.com/library/Marriage/wivesubmis.HTM
"Let me read to you what Pope Pius XI taught in 1930 which is still very relevant…:
The submission of the wife neither ignores nor suppresses the liberty to which her dignity as a human person and her noble functions as wife, mother, and companion give her the full right.
It does not oblige her to yield indiscriminately to all the desires of her husband; and his desires may be unreasonable or incompatible with her wifely dignity.
It does not mean that she is on a level with persons who in law are called minors. And minors are ordinarily denied the unrestricted exercise of their rights because of their immature judgment and not having enough experience…
"The role of husband and wife is not about competing with one another — competing in the authoritative level! But it is about complementing one another! Again, one as the head and the other as the heart! And both possess the dignity of being human persons and being children of God.
…when taking this passage in the proper context, the demand for a wife to submit herself to her husband is nothing compare to the demand the husband has! When a husband reads this carefully and understands it well, he might not really like this passage after all because the demand for him is much heavier than for his wife…"
ewtn.com/library/Marriage/wivesubmis.HTM
"Let me read to you what Pope Pius XI taught in 1930 which is still very relevant…:
The submission of the wife neither ignores nor suppresses the liberty to which her dignity as a human person and her noble functions as wife, mother, and companion give her the full right.
It does not oblige her to yield indiscriminately to all the desires of her husband; and his desires may be unreasonable or incompatible with her wifely dignity.
It does not mean that she is on a level with persons who in law are called minors. And minors are ordinarily denied the unrestricted exercise of their rights because of their immature judgment and not having enough experience…
"The role of husband and wife is not about competing with one another — competing in the authoritative level! But it is about complementing one another! Again, one as the head and the other as the heart! And both possess the dignity of being human persons and being children of God.
…when taking this passage in the proper context, the demand for a wife to submit herself to her husband is nothing compare to the demand the husband has! When a husband reads this carefully and understands it well, he might not really like this passage after all because the demand for him is much heavier than for his wife…"
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mariam1976
Guest
i love this one!!! it is awesome… again…i wish i had known all this before so i would have known the error of my ways and shown him the error of his!!!..
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Feanaro_s_Wife
Guest
**If there is a specific issue, I do not argue about, talk about it, or address it in front of Lily. I wait until an appropriate time. But I don’t know what to do for everyday, minor things.
For example (hypothetical)…
we are out with Lily. I see that she is tired and we should go home. Supper still needs to be made, she needs a bath, and if we go anywhere else then she will get overtired and also will not get to bed on time. I tell hubby that we should go. He thinks we should make another stop. I need a way to communicate with him that is neither passive nor pushy, but healthy. Know what I mean?
Malia
**
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HumbleMom
Guest
Malia, my husband is very strong willed too. Over the years, we have managed to work out this issue to some degree, but I would not say it has totally resolved itself - a very stressful life event could (and has) set us back.
I try to deal with each power struggle as a stand alone event. Is it worth it to me to argue? How important is the issue and what do I think the result of doing it his way will be? I have learned to express my feelings about each issue rather than holding them in, because that can cause even worse problems down the road. I think my husband has come to respect my opinions more over the years. For instance, I had a terrible time talking him into buying our first house. Once in the house, I was unable to get him to pay for home repairs that the house desparately needed (plumbing!!!) He said we didn’t have enough money invested for our retirement and what would we do if something happened to our income before then. I said “This house is our investment,” and a few years later we sold it for more than twice what we bought it for (even though we hadn’t made any repairs
).
In the hypothetical situation you described, if he refused to go home, I would patiently wait for the baby’s meltdown and then let him deal with the consequences. I wouldn’t say anything then, but the next time we were out and the same situation occured, I would gently remind him of what happened last time. In our old age, my husband has become much more in tune with the baby’s needs and knows not to do things like this, but when we were younger, I’m not sure if anything would have swayed him
I try to deal with each power struggle as a stand alone event. Is it worth it to me to argue? How important is the issue and what do I think the result of doing it his way will be? I have learned to express my feelings about each issue rather than holding them in, because that can cause even worse problems down the road. I think my husband has come to respect my opinions more over the years. For instance, I had a terrible time talking him into buying our first house. Once in the house, I was unable to get him to pay for home repairs that the house desparately needed (plumbing!!!) He said we didn’t have enough money invested for our retirement and what would we do if something happened to our income before then. I said “This house is our investment,” and a few years later we sold it for more than twice what we bought it for (even though we hadn’t made any repairs
).In the hypothetical situation you described, if he refused to go home, I would patiently wait for the baby’s meltdown and then let him deal with the consequences. I wouldn’t say anything then, but the next time we were out and the same situation occured, I would gently remind him of what happened last time. In our old age, my husband has become much more in tune with the baby’s needs and knows not to do things like this, but when we were younger, I’m not sure if anything would have swayed him
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rayne89
Guest
Malia I’ve been trying to come with a decent answer for you. Truthfully early in our marriage I was majorly controlling so I’m very careful about how I respond in regards to differing opinions between my hubby and I. In the scenario you gave I would first mention it was getting late and I really need to get dinner going and get the baby ready for bed. If it was that important for my husband to make another stop I would wait in the car with the baby, and give the baby a bath in morning.
I really think you and hubby need to meet in the middle. Each if you need to think about “how important is it to me?” If it’s not as important to your husband as it is to you and yet he still insists on his way simply because he disagrees with you that is pretty selfish on his part. When issues arise between hubby and I rarely is the outcome/decision of equal importance to both of us. On the few occasions that we really are butting heads we try to meet somewhere in the middle.
I think the problem is although you are trying to say in your mind “is it really worth the argument” most of the time your hubby is not doing the same. You are making sacrifices for the sake of peace but you feel he is not. Things start to feel unbalanced and resentment and tension build.
Another thing to keep in mind, it’s easy when a baby comes into the marriage to get over focused on the needs of the baby. This was a hard lesson to learn for me since I saw my daughter as a helpless baby and my husband as an able bodied adult. I really hurt my husband and damaged our relationship. (Not that I’m saying you do that but it’s something to look out for.)
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RWMorris
Guest
In the case of being out too late with the baby, I’d say nothing and let him see the consequences!
In other disagreements, I let it all flow off me like water off a duck’s back. My husband, too, is very strong-willed (retired military!) and it took me twenty years to stop arguing with him over things…Now that I’ve given up, things are a lot more peaceful and I couldn’t be happier. Especially when he’s going the wrong way in the car…I’ll say absolutely nothing and he’ll figure it out sooner or later, to my delight!
Seriously, we used to have tons of disagreements until I decided to just quit because it wasn’t worth the strife in our peaceful home. I basically do what I want to do unless I know it REALLY upsets him. If he wants to get into an argument I let him argue by himself and he soon runs out of steam.
This way may not be for everyone, but it has brought peace into my life and DH is anxious to make me happy, now that I refuse to argue with him.
In other disagreements, I let it all flow off me like water off a duck’s back. My husband, too, is very strong-willed (retired military!) and it took me twenty years to stop arguing with him over things…Now that I’ve given up, things are a lot more peaceful and I couldn’t be happier. Especially when he’s going the wrong way in the car…I’ll say absolutely nothing and he’ll figure it out sooner or later, to my delight!
Seriously, we used to have tons of disagreements until I decided to just quit because it wasn’t worth the strife in our peaceful home. I basically do what I want to do unless I know it REALLY upsets him. If he wants to get into an argument I let him argue by himself and he soon runs out of steam.
This way may not be for everyone, but it has brought peace into my life and DH is anxious to make me happy, now that I refuse to argue with him.
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chevalier
Guest
Okay, at the risk of messing this up… Have you tried pointing that also at yourself? I mean not to imply you didn’t, but to suggest something. You see, sometimes we feel misunderstood and we generally want the other person to understand us more or to trust more, but we don’t really think how much we understand or trust that person ourselves. Logically, you have an equal “right” to be understood by each other, as well as trusted. So, logically, chances are that you misunderstand him in your disagreements, not only he you (assuming you always understand him well, even if it seems so to you, would be dangerous).
If he accuses you of wanting everything your way, then how often do you actually argue about things? Maybe you argue about almost everything and so he feels like you undermine each and every decision or choice he makes? What about “controlling”? “Controlling” doesn’t seem to be applicable to anything but a situation which, in his mind, concerns him more than it does you - or at least perhaps equally. So… do you chime in with strong opinions when he’s making choices (mostly) about his life? Or do you argue that a decision belongs to you or should be made your way, rather than for a specific solution? Do you always explain your position?
I’m just guessing, but if I look at myself, and I know I’m not probably much different from most men on this one, I am definitely unnerved when anyone is trying to make a decision about something “too close to the body”. For example, I can’t stand anyone telling me what I should wear, what music I should listen to, what kind of books to read, what kind of hobbies to pursue rather than my own, what else to do with my free time than I choose to do, what I should like, enjoy or think or how I should feel. I’m also unnerved when I’m arguing for a solution and for the other person it seems more important that we do it his way than any specific solution. Especially when someone has a desire to do something specifically in a way different from the one I’m suggesting (for the sake of the difference) rather than any specific way. For example, to me it matters what colour we paint it, not who picks that colour. When the other person seems to care more for who does the picking than for what is actually picked, I start treating that person as a child and I’m even less inclined to concede.
However, I understand that after a number of times or a long period that one and the same person has been making the choice, even if it was for the sake of the best solution rather than for the sake of himself picking it, then it probably becomes tiresome for the other person and he or she starts feeling a legitimate need to have some influence. Still, so long as there’s likely a better way and a worse way, I have little patience for arguing whose way it shall be. Now, when it’s really a matter of tastes or something else largely subjective, then the whose of it starts to matter. It is also my impression that women are inclined to overemphasise the subjective part (valuing it more than the quality of the solution perhaps), while men are inclined to “objectivise” matters which are more subjective. Both genders are inclined to trust their own judgement more and see their own ways as better.
Where I’m driving at is that it’s perfectly possible that sometimes you forget about the best solution part when there are indeed better or worse choice, while your husband forgets about the importance of the whose of it in subjective matters - or maybe he’s inclined to see subjective matters as more objective than they really are. I’m more and more of the impression that both of you need to loosen up a little and concede a bit so that both of you can be happy. Now, neither of you can or will give up and capitulate (and that wouldn’t be good, either), so you need to come up with something creative.
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dulcissima
Guest
I agree with this one. So, you let your husband know what you think needs to be done. He disagrees. So your two options are to get really stressed because you think you know what is best and that your husband is going to make a big mistake - or - you let him know about your concern but gracefully concede to his wishes. He gets his way, you don’t go home, and either it will work out with Lily or it won’t. He’ll see the consequences if it doesn’t work out, and then he’ll learn from them. It’s not like we are talking about consequences that would have any lasting damage, so there is really no reason to stress. Oh, and if things do go awry, just make sure you don’t adopt the “I told you so attitude.” Wait until things are calmed down, and talk about why you would have done it differently.
Again, just speculating here, since I have not lived in a marriage where this kind of communication was possible. I had to just sit in silence and hope that by coincidence my husband would see things my way, because he would get angry if I had thoughts about how things should be done.
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chevalier
Guest
(continuation)
Now, let’s take a look at a theorethical-hypothetical-whateverical scenario, as I’m feeling theoretical tonight. So,
A: “Let’s paint the house yellow!”
B1: “No. Blue is my favourite” - wrong answer, apodictical, infantile, confrontational
B2. “But blue is my favourite… Do you feel strongly about yellow?” - a very nice non-confrontational attempt without drama
B3: “Whatever.” - wrong answer, one’s got to care - and if one really doesn’t care, one could at least be friendlier
B4: “You get your part yellow, I get mine blue. We can paint the shared space green or pick something else or go for a bi-colour pattern.” - nice answer, if not perfect
B5: “But I really like blue more. Can we mix it up a bit?” - nice answer, tentative and all, might need some reinforcement in later phases of the conversation
B6: “No, because yellow is your favourite and I want you to show/prove/concede something. Or I want to pick the colour, so it can’t be your favourite.” - wrong answer, that’s controlling and power-struggling (it may be a normal reaction to real problems, but on its own it doesn’t look good)
B7: “Yellow is my favourite, but since you picked it, I want a say too. I say [insert colour].” - wrong answer, impractical and small-minded - one’s got to be more generous than that
B8: “Let’s go green everywhere.” - crude power-compromising, but it may work for some people - there are always better solutions
B9: “You want yellow, I want blue, let’s try something new.” - nice, reasonable, natural, if somewhat imperfect
B10: “You pick the kitchen, I pick the bathroom, you pick the garage, I pick the shed, you pick the living room, I pick the dining room…” - crazy, but if it works… at least it’s fair and even-handed
B11: “Can I pick, can I?” - dubious answer; most people will see just a non-binding tentative question here, but it might be egocentric - if said in a child’s excited voice while jumping up and down out of joy of getting our new house… then I wouldn’t have the heart to argue or think bad of it, but you can obviously see some room for danger here - think what if one person keeps asking kindly but asking for a lot and at the other’s expense? Granted, that may be paid back tenfold in unconditional love, but it doesn’t have to be.
B12: "I say blue for living room, green for bathroom, orange for kitchen, grey for garage, pink for my room, purple for your room… - scary!
See my point?
Now, I guess we just sometimes have to make concessions without any guarantees. Sometimes it probably feels like we’re making a concession this time and the future is uncertain. We don’t know if the other person will return the kindness or if he will only learn that we are ready to concede, or conclude that we don’t really care. It’s often difficult to make the first step and the first concession. But since you’re both Christian, Catholic, you know the part about submitting to one another, the part about the other cheek, and the whole paradigm of charity, you have much more guarantee that each will appreciate the other’s concession, than other people have. That’s a blessing.
Now, let’s take a look at a theorethical-hypothetical-whateverical scenario, as I’m feeling theoretical tonight. So,
A: “Let’s paint the house yellow!”
B1: “No. Blue is my favourite” - wrong answer, apodictical, infantile, confrontational
B2. “But blue is my favourite… Do you feel strongly about yellow?” - a very nice non-confrontational attempt without drama
B3: “Whatever.” - wrong answer, one’s got to care - and if one really doesn’t care, one could at least be friendlier
B4: “You get your part yellow, I get mine blue. We can paint the shared space green or pick something else or go for a bi-colour pattern.” - nice answer, if not perfect
B5: “But I really like blue more. Can we mix it up a bit?” - nice answer, tentative and all, might need some reinforcement in later phases of the conversation
B6: “No, because yellow is your favourite and I want you to show/prove/concede something. Or I want to pick the colour, so it can’t be your favourite.” - wrong answer, that’s controlling and power-struggling (it may be a normal reaction to real problems, but on its own it doesn’t look good)
B7: “Yellow is my favourite, but since you picked it, I want a say too. I say [insert colour].” - wrong answer, impractical and small-minded - one’s got to be more generous than that
B8: “Let’s go green everywhere.” - crude power-compromising, but it may work for some people - there are always better solutions
B9: “You want yellow, I want blue, let’s try something new.” - nice, reasonable, natural, if somewhat imperfect
B10: “You pick the kitchen, I pick the bathroom, you pick the garage, I pick the shed, you pick the living room, I pick the dining room…” - crazy, but if it works… at least it’s fair and even-handed
B11: “Can I pick, can I?” - dubious answer; most people will see just a non-binding tentative question here, but it might be egocentric - if said in a child’s excited voice while jumping up and down out of joy of getting our new house… then I wouldn’t have the heart to argue or think bad of it, but you can obviously see some room for danger here - think what if one person keeps asking kindly but asking for a lot and at the other’s expense? Granted, that may be paid back tenfold in unconditional love, but it doesn’t have to be.
B12: "I say blue for living room, green for bathroom, orange for kitchen, grey for garage, pink for my room, purple for your room… - scary!
See my point?
Now, I guess we just sometimes have to make concessions without any guarantees. Sometimes it probably feels like we’re making a concession this time and the future is uncertain. We don’t know if the other person will return the kindness or if he will only learn that we are ready to concede, or conclude that we don’t really care. It’s often difficult to make the first step and the first concession.
But since you’re both Christian, Catholic, you know the part about submitting to one another, the part about the other cheek, and the whole paradigm of charity, you have much more guarantee that each will appreciate the other’s concession, than other people have. That’s a blessing.
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duskyjewel
Guest
I can’t discuss this issue without getting hot under the collar, because so many husbands seem to completely misunderstand and misuse it.
To the OP and her husband, since they both posted on this thread: Men and women have equal human dignity. Submission has NOTHING to do with being a doormat, or treating anyone like one. A husband who uses this as a club is not being loving or Christlike. If he has ever said, “You have to give in to my opinion because the Bible says you have to submit,” he is using it as a club and he is wrong.
I’m out…cuz like I said, this topic gets me too hot.
To the OP and her husband, since they both posted on this thread: Men and women have equal human dignity. Submission has NOTHING to do with being a doormat, or treating anyone like one. A husband who uses this as a club is not being loving or Christlike. If he has ever said, “You have to give in to my opinion because the Bible says you have to submit,” he is using it as a club and he is wrong.
I’m out…cuz like I said, this topic gets me too hot.
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sanctareparata
Guest
Here’s what I would say: “Okay, honey, if you really think the next stop is necessary. But if you think it can wait for another day so we can get home then I’d prefer to be done with this outing.” And let him deal with the consequences - whether that be a cranky, overtired baby who now won’t sleep or a quick last-minute meal at home.
In this particular situation you mentioned, I would *hope *that the husband would realize that to LEAD is to SERVE, and that the needs of his wife and child at that moment supercede his own desire to spend more time out and about…after all, by prolonging the trip he does a great disservice to his wife and child, who have to rush about at home getting things accomplished (meal, baths, bedtime).
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Feanaro_s_Wife
Guest
I agree with this one. So, you let your husband know what you think needs to be done. He disagrees. So your two options are to get really stressed because you think you know what is best and that your husband is going to make a big mistake - or - you let him know about your concern but gracefully concede to his wishes.
I guess it’s the gracefully conceding part that is a stumbling block for me. I am usually pretty good at reading a situation and predicting an outcome. And when it comes to my baby, I am almost always right. And when I am wrong I humbly acknowledge it. So if I predict a meltdown I guess I feel like he doesn’t believe me or take me seriously.
He gets his way, you don’t go home, and either it will work out with Lily or it won’t. He’ll see the consequences if it doesn’t work out, and then he’ll learn from them. It’s not like we are talking about consequences that would have any lasting damage, so there is really no reason to stress.
Ahhhhh, but if only he would learn from them. More often than not he’ll see things as isolated with no cause and, therefore, no prevention. If we follow this scenario through, he gets his way, Lily has a total meltdown and is difficult that night and the following day and then the whole thing comes up during another outing……and I say “remember last time?” he would usually reply with “but that probably won’t happen this time”…
**As for the “no reason to stress”…I have to disagree. I am still breastfeeding and if anyone remembers all of my early struggles and knows a little of how challenging she still is to feed they would understand that I want as calm and peaceful of a baby as possible latching onto one of the most sensitive parts of my anatomy
Oh, and if things do go awry, just make sure you don’t adopt the “I told you so attitude.” Wait until things are calmed down, and talk about why you would have done it differently.
**If I try that, no matter how charitable I try to be, he always tells me that I’m lecturing him. That’s his standard response when I try and explain my position or feelings. **
He is only like this with things that he may have blame in. We can talk rationally about all other subjects even if we don’t agree (sex, religion, politics, etc). From my perspective he takes things personally that weren’t intended as such and then gets defensive before he even understands what’s really going on. But that’s just how I see it.
malia
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Feanaro_s_Wife
Guest
**Thank you for your posts. But, I have to admit, you are blowing my mind tonight(Now, I guess we just sometimes have to make concessions without any guarantees. Sometimes it probably feels like we’re making a concession this time and the future is uncertain. We don’t know if the other person will return the kindness or if he will only learn that we are ready to concede, or conclude that we don’t really care. It’s often difficult to make the first step and the first concession.
. I am exhausted and having trouble comprehending more than a sentence or two at a time. Tomorrow I will reread your replies and hopefully be able to address some of your good points. As for now I just want to say that I do look inward…a lot. I know I have issues to deal with but also am actively trying to counter them with kindness at every turn. I try to be overly nice, supportive etc so that I don’t let that old monster out of it’s cage. **I think that is more than half of our problem…we are both totally different people than when we were first married. In the beginning we were both horrible spouses and we tend to revert back to those opinions of eachother during times of stress…
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Feanaro_s_Wife
Guest
**I hear you! If I see examples of a husband abusing this authority it makes me sick. But, as in most cases, it is harder to see objectively when the situation is more personal. I want to be sure that I am not being overly sensitive or overly critical…but I also do not ever want to be a doormat. **
malia
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