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Feanaro_s_Wife
Guest
See my above post about the breastfeeding aspect…
thank you for your thoughtful reply. I am getting too tired to respond but just want you to know that it’s appreciated…
Malia
- Status
thank you for your thoughtful reply. I am getting too tired to respond but just want you to know that it’s appreciated…
Malia
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Feanaro
Guest
**Hmmm, where do I start? I have so much that I need to say but do not know where to start.
First of all I guess I should say that I am married to a wonderful wife who inspires me to want to be a better husband, better father, better man, and better catholic. That being said, as she might have mentioned earlier we did not always have the healthiest marriage. There was a time when things were drastically different than they are now. Back then, my wife tended to be more controlling, and not as charitable as she is now. I was also not as charitable and had a more explosive temper. I hate being controlled and find it very disrespectful, but would not argue with her much back then since I knew it would just escalate and solve nothing. I would let her have things her way almost all the time but inside would resent her and feel disrespected as a man, until I would finally explode. Now that things are better with us and I no longer fear things getting out of hand, I no longer simply go along with things I disagree with. Don’t get me wrong, even though I see myself as the head of the house I don’t micromanage everything or want to control every aspect of my wife’s life. I think that’s demeaning and disrespectful to her as a person, plus I have a fairly laid back personality. Most matters do** get resolved based on who it is most important to. I think we are both strong willed and opinionated which is fine the majority of the time since we agree on most things, it’s when we don’t agree and the matter is equally important to both of us that there is a problem. This is where I feel wifely submission comes in. That doesn’t mean she can’t express her opinions or concerns or talk it over later, but when a decision has to be made it has to be made and ultimately comes down to who has the authority to make it. I also believe that way to many men abuse this authority and use it to demean their wives instead of loving them the way Christ loves his church.
I have a ton more to say but supper is on the table and I don’t want to disrespect my wife.
First of all I guess I should say that I am married to a wonderful wife who inspires me to want to be a better husband, better father, better man, and better catholic. That being said, as she might have mentioned earlier we did not always have the healthiest marriage. There was a time when things were drastically different than they are now. Back then, my wife tended to be more controlling, and not as charitable as she is now. I was also not as charitable and had a more explosive temper. I hate being controlled and find it very disrespectful, but would not argue with her much back then since I knew it would just escalate and solve nothing. I would let her have things her way almost all the time but inside would resent her and feel disrespected as a man, until I would finally explode. Now that things are better with us and I no longer fear things getting out of hand, I no longer simply go along with things I disagree with. Don’t get me wrong, even though I see myself as the head of the house I don’t micromanage everything or want to control every aspect of my wife’s life. I think that’s demeaning and disrespectful to her as a person, plus I have a fairly laid back personality. Most matters do** get resolved based on who it is most important to. I think we are both strong willed and opinionated which is fine the majority of the time since we agree on most things, it’s when we don’t agree and the matter is equally important to both of us that there is a problem. This is where I feel wifely submission comes in. That doesn’t mean she can’t express her opinions or concerns or talk it over later, but when a decision has to be made it has to be made and ultimately comes down to who has the authority to make it. I also believe that way to many men abuse this authority and use it to demean their wives instead of loving them the way Christ loves his church.
I have a ton more to say but supper is on the table and I don’t want to disrespect my wife.
J
JezuUfamTobie
Guest
I have to say I really respect the both of you for being so open and honest in your discussion. (Both in this thread and your threads about the baby.) So many people struggle with these and other tough issues but are too embarrassed or shy to say anything about it.
In the past many of Malia’s posts have really helped me not to feel so alone in things I was struggling with but didn’t want to say anything about for fear of judgment. I imagine that this thread is helping more people than you’ll ever know… so hats off to both of you.
Two rational, loving spouses can always come to a happy conclusion, even if the road is bumpy. God love ya!
In the past many of Malia’s posts have really helped me not to feel so alone in things I was struggling with but didn’t want to say anything about for fear of judgment. I imagine that this thread is helping more people than you’ll ever know… so hats off to both of you.
Two rational, loving spouses can always come to a happy conclusion, even if the road is bumpy. God love ya!
M
MysticalMan
Guest
Malia, that is not what it means. I more often submit to my wife. At some level you have to keep the peace in the marriage. It doesn’t sound like that is way it is with you! Try to find a Catholic Counselor or a priest to sit down with you both. That sounds terribly frustrating. Your husband may just have power struggles and found some piece of scripture that backs it up. Don’t fall for it.
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Feanaro_s_Wife
Guest
First of all I guess I should say that I am married to a wonderful wife who inspires me to want to be a better husband, better father, better man, and better catholic.
Awwww, thank you.I wish I knew that.
** That being said, as she might have mentioned earlier we did not always have the healthiest marriage. There was a time when things were drastically different than they are now. Back then, my wife tended to be more controlling, and not as charitable as she is now.**
Guilty as charged. But in my defense, I wasn’t comtrolling in the “my way is the only way” way…more of a “I’m so insecure I need to feel like I have a say in things so I take it too far” way. And it wasn’t anything big. We agreed on finances for the most part. I didn’t paint our bedroom pink, lol.
** I was also not as charitable and had a more explosive temper. I hate being controlled and find it very disrespectful, but would not argue with her much back then since I knew it would just escalate and solve nothing.**
I would let her have things her way almost all the time but inside would resent her and feel disrespected as a man, until I would finally explode.
So from my point of view things were ok. I didn’t realize how controlling I was being and you stuffed it down until an explosion which, to me, came out of nowhere.
** Now that things are better with us and I no longer fear things getting out of hand, I no longer simply go along with things I disagree with.**
Could be a case of overcompensating. I don’t expect you or anyone to go along with things they disagree with without a discussion first. But I don’t know there’s a problem unless you tell me.
** Don’t get me wrong, even though I see myself as the head of the house I don’t micromanage everything or want to control every aspect of my wife’s life. I think that’s demeaning and disrespectful to her as a person, plus I have a fairly laid back personality.**
**No, you definitely don’t micromanage and you are laid back. I appreciate that you trust in my abilities enough to let me do things as I see fit. But I also have to say that I would never make a big decision without first talking with you. And if I do something on impulse (like buy clothes etc) I make sure that you know that I’ll return them if you really think it’s too much money. **
** Most matters do** get resolved based on who it is most important to. I think we are both strong willed and opinionated which is fine the majority of the time since we agree on most things, it’s when we don’t agree and the matter is equally important to both of us that there is a problem.
**Thank God that we agree on most things!!! **
This is where I feel wifely submission comes in. That doesn’t mean she can’t express her opinions or concerns or talk it over later, but when a decision has to be made it has to be made and ultimately comes down to who has the authority to make it.
I am going to reserve comment on ths one but would like to hear from neutral third parties. Is this a reasonable belief?
** I also believe that way to many men abuse this authority and use it to demean their wives instead of loving them the way Christ loves his church. **
I have a ton more to say but supper is on the table and I don’t want to disrespect my wife.
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Feanaro_s_Wife
Guest
I have to say I really respect the both of you for being so open and honest in your discussion. (Both in this thread and your threads about the baby.) So many people struggle with these and other tough issues but are too embarrassed or shy to say anything about it.
Well I really hope that discussing my many issues here has been able to help someone. I know it has definitely helped me!
In the past many of Malia’s posts have really helped me not to feel so alone in things I was struggling with but didn’t want to say anything about for fear of judgment. I imagine that this thread is helping more people than you’ll ever know… so hats off to both of you.
Thank you so much. It is very difficult for me to swallow that fear of being judged, but I feel that most of the time it is worth it.
Two rational, loving spouses can always come to a happy conclusion, even if the road is bumpy. God love ya!
I can only hope.
Malia
M
mariam1976
Guest
i just feel that if Feanaro says that he is the christian husband, there should be love on his part!!! sacrificial love.
for instance, i have read Feanaro’s wife’s comments on this site and you guys agree on most things right? when you dont agree, its becos both of you are right in their own respects and then you expect her to submit to you as you shoudl have the final say… can i ask why you cannot agree with her as you are also called to sacrificial love??why make her submit to you when you are equally called to sacrificial love?
i hope you understand that just as you make her stand guilty of not being submissive enough, when you make her submit to your wishes, you are guilty of not being sacrificial enough…
the next time you think about talking to your wife about submission, do remember the proverb - take the log out of your own eye so that you can see better to take the splinter out of your brother’s eye…
when Jesus loved the church, it was not conditional, nor did he say only if you submit are you the perfect church… he said that i love you so much that i will wash you with my own blood and make you perfect…
just my 2 cents…
did not mean to hurt anyone’s feelings or sentiments…
for instance, i have read Feanaro’s wife’s comments on this site and you guys agree on most things right? when you dont agree, its becos both of you are right in their own respects and then you expect her to submit to you as you shoudl have the final say… can i ask why you cannot agree with her as you are also called to sacrificial love??why make her submit to you when you are equally called to sacrificial love?
i hope you understand that just as you make her stand guilty of not being submissive enough, when you make her submit to your wishes, you are guilty of not being sacrificial enough…
the next time you think about talking to your wife about submission, do remember the proverb - take the log out of your own eye so that you can see better to take the splinter out of your brother’s eye…
when Jesus loved the church, it was not conditional, nor did he say only if you submit are you the perfect church… he said that i love you so much that i will wash you with my own blood and make you perfect…
just my 2 cents…
did not mean to hurt anyone’s feelings or sentiments…
C
cheeto1
Guest
Have mercy on the poor wife. Would you send someone out in a
rainstorm who’s recovering from a cold? Would you send someone with a broken leg to fetch the mail? If you have her best interest at heart here, she doesn’t know, so you just need
to explain how exhausting her and your child is actually
beneficial to them. Maybe she’s wrong about being exhausted,
but a nursing mother usually knows when she’s exhausted.
rainstorm who’s recovering from a cold? Would you send someone with a broken leg to fetch the mail? If you have her best interest at heart here, she doesn’t know, so you just need
to explain how exhausting her and your child is actually
beneficial to them. Maybe she’s wrong about being exhausted,
but a nursing mother usually knows when she’s exhausted.
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Feanaro
Guest
**A nursing mother with a chronic illness (Fibromyalgia) that is serious enough to be labeled a longterm disability and require that I receive disability insurance payments.
I have sacrificed so much…in my life, in my marriage, in being a mom. Just making the decision to go ahead and try to conceive with all of my health issues was a giant leap of faith for me. As much as I wanted to be a mom, i don’t think I would have done it if I didn’t know how happy and fulfilled it would make my husband.
But instead of appreciation I feel like I am met with the “when we have our next one” comments that make me feel…awful. I would love to have many more children!!! But I don’t want to feel like I have somehow failed my husband if my health makes me choose to try not to conceive.
But I am getting way off topic. The original issue of submission has not been explained to my satisfaction…yet. Maybe I am just dense, lol. But if someone could reply to my hubby’s post above I would appreciate it.
Malia **
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RWMorris
Guest
Your husband sounds reasonable. It is true that someone has to make the final say on issues…it might as well be him if it’s that important to him. My husband (retired military) is also very…take charge. I just let him, now. It isn’t worth having big disagreements over.
One big thing is that husbands need to feel admired and respected. It took me over twenty years before I finally took this to heart.
Let him do or say what he wants and love him anyway.
One big thing is that husbands need to feel admired and respected. It took me over twenty years before I finally took this to heart.
Let him do or say what he wants and love him anyway.
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Feanaro
Guest
Forgive me for posting under hubby’s name…no time to switch users, lol…One big thing is that husbands need to feel admired and respected. It took me over twenty years before I finally took this to heart.
Let him do or say what he wants and love him anyway.
**I do love him anyway…no matter what. And I do my best to show his respect and admiration, but to some extent that has to be earned/proven. So I respect and admire him 99.9% but that other .01% has to be earned by him. I don’t think that is unreasonable…is it?
Malia**
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mariam1976
Guest
i think my dear… respect has to be there anyway simply becos God put him there in that position as a husband… it doesnt matter what he did or didnt do…
Its the same as he has to love you 100%… you shouldnt have to do anything to earn it… It has to be his decision to love you no matter what…you could turn into a nutcase due to some illness and he still has to love you… just like the church did not do anything to earn Christ’s love…
i am just putting my 2 cents in and i do realise how horribly difficult it is… at this moment, as you all know i am only preaching and when it was time to practise i could not do it…
Its the same as he has to love you 100%… you shouldnt have to do anything to earn it… It has to be his decision to love you no matter what…you could turn into a nutcase due to some illness and he still has to love you… just like the church did not do anything to earn Christ’s love…
i am just putting my 2 cents in and i do realise how horribly difficult it is… at this moment, as you all know i am only preaching and when it was time to practise i could not do it…
C
chevalier
Guest
**Thank you for your posts. But, I have to admit, you are blowing my mind tonight
Sorry, the later at night it is, the more theoretical and abstract I get. After some hour, I lose the ability to communicate and I’m just chewing and spitting out data.
**
**]
I think I know what you’re talking about. Any chance you have the INTJ personality type? That type has it easy to find fault in others, places emphasis on reason and reasonability, expects others to make sense, thinks it’s mostly right… and actually is mostly right - which is annoying. Also the pattern building.
You mentioned seeing things as isolated cases or as a pattern, by the way, as one of the differences between you and your husband. I don’t really know how to deal with it, but I know what you feel. It’s not really a male-female thing, it’s about personality. I’ve always been saddened and annoyed by my past girlfriends (and I only have such) always seeing everything as an isolate entity on its own and a tiny little paradigm without external connections. It annoyed me to no end (not in a violent sense, though, but it was able to make my remarks quite up to the point). I don’t really have any experience on the receiving end, but I know how it feels when people try to build a system and fill in the missing bits without regard to reality, as reality is indeed a secondary concern when one wants to rationalise something. I suppose the INTJ pattern building may have a similar effect on people, as if they don’t realise the pattern, or even some data, it’s basically the same to them as if we were creating links out of thin air.
**
**
Change sucks. So does a low opinion in the eyes of a partner. Never been married but remember the effect of a perceived low opinion. With the right strength and type of intellect, and intuition, it’s easy to infer certain aspects of how other people see us, that they would never tell us. Or that they don’t realise. Sometimes it’s a delusion, just a link that really doesn’t really exist, so there’s always a degree of uncertainty. But the feeling sucks. It also sucks to feel the other person’s seeing us as below himself… hope you don’t experience that, but I have. It’s no pleasure.
Looks like you have a lot to talk about and there’s a whole lot of bridges to build.
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Feanaro_s_Wife
Guest
**I guess it depends on the definition of respect. I respect him 100% as a person, as a child of God. I respect his God given rights and would never dream of taking them away or becoming an obstacle to what he rightly deserves as simply a human being.i think my dear… respect has to be there anyway simply becos God put him there in that position as a husband… it doesnt matter what he did or didnt do…
The type of respect I am referring to is more subjective. Like respecting someone in their role (parent, boss, sibling, coworker etc). You cannot honestly say about a lazy coworker that you respect** their work ethic. In this case I still have great respect for my hubby…just not always 100%. Does that make more sense?
Malia
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Feanaro_s_Wife
Guest
**
I think I may have figured something out.Bear with me as I “think out loud” here…
Submission to me is an act, a choice. That implies free will. If I am not given the choice to willingly submit, doesn’t that turn it into a matter of force?
Maybe our issue here has to do with my husband’s demand that I should obey rather than submit?
He says that in some issues there can be no “give and take”. Right now I still feel like each issue should be dealt with individually and one of us has to choose to submit (me) or to sacrifice(him).
I don’t see how me always going with his way if we disagree fosters an atmosphere of compromise and understanding. But maybe I’m still not seeing things clearly?
Malia**
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chevalier
Guest
I’m sorry to hear that. The situation must be difficult for you as well. I suppose things piling up aren’t making it easy on you.
Yeah, I know the feeling. The feeling of being controlled sucks and “disrespectful” is about the best word for that. So does the feeling of being unable to argue because it will only make things worse. I’ve experienced that and your post has given me the idea to pray tonight that I don’t experience it again. It’s a great thing that your wife changed that and that you dealt with the explosive temper. To my eye, those things would be among the most difficult to deal with. In my last relationship, there was an improvement in that area, but it still didn’t save the relationship. Then again, if you’re married, you get special graces from the sacrament.
Won’t be wrapping it in cotton wools… that was a bad attitude. I know that one too. Nothing makes me more unhappy than a girlfriend (never been married) trying to wear the breeches.
Yeah, and that’s a healthier attitude. In my case, it was more about bracing myself for what was to come and deciding to stick with the right thing and all, dealing with my fear that way… plus a little bit of what you said, too. Yours is the healthier way. I suppose by playing along with things you allowed a habit and a custom to grow and now that you’ve changed your attitude, you’ve also disrupted the balance, violated that custom and threatened the status quo. No “better” ground for insecurities and tension.
Yep, as much as I’m going to get flamed for this, and as much as it’s increasing my chance of dying without issue, I agree with you. The man’s the head. If not, then everything’s upside down.
Then I suppose it’s about the changes and about communication. Since old habits are broken, there’s uncertainty now.
I think that’s a reasonable attitude. There’s nothing reasonable about too reasonable about something the one cares for strongly and the other not really.
Hmm… On one level I agree with you. This is not to say the husband needs always to have the final say, but ultimately, he’s the head. He’s the leader. The leader typically doesn’t get his needs satisfied as much as those of the people he protects, nor in fact does he have his own will done so much as the right thing to do or what’s good for the mission and the charges. So this is definitely not about whose will prevails or whose position is more important. No one’s position is inherently more important just because it’s the wife’s or the husband’s. Sometimes the leader probably has to allow the charges to have things their way so that they could learn the consequences of it. Nonetheless, I suppose it’s not as dangerous when the decision is materially the wife’s idea, as when the wife’s taking over the formal decision making.
I guess the last thing is that it’s really difficult to decypher the limits and boundaries of submission as, as it follows the example of submission to Christ, it’s all inherently tied with how Jesus approached His leadership. And this is connected with the fact that Christ was perfect, He was never egoistic or egocentric, never acted on anger, jealousy, pride, hurt feelings, never despaired (sounds like 1 Cor, 13, but the exact words are different). As such, submission to Christ never means effectively giving up dignity, legitimate concerns, care for one’s needs. Christ is unable to hurt us because in doing that, He would contradict His nature. With us guys, it’s not remotely like that. We’re more than tempted to use the authority as a dispute cutter and quite often pride or the simple desire to have things our way chimes in. Things actually have to be our way if we’re the leaders, but that means not what we desire but what we should desire, so again, not really our will. More like our duties or the needs of our charges, but we just formally make the decision.
But I need to finish now because the headache is splitting.
M
mariam1976
Guest
u r absolutely right!!!
its his demand… that makes it more difficult as that tells you that there is no choice… submission happens when there is love, subjugation happens when there is demand… Jesus has called for wives to submit to their husbands out of love…
and again there is nothing that says that he has to have the final authority in everything… God has given us all different talents… and a wise leader knows how to make use of those talents…
I love the example that Jesus set for his disciples as a leader - to serve and not to lead…
C
chevalier
Guest
Oh dear, I feel so out of place being a young single guy talking here… but yeah, it does look like what you’re bringing up there is an important concern. Haven’t looked at it from that angle yet. On the one hand, yes, submission is a choice. If we are to use Christ as an example, He wants choice. He wants an act of will. On the other hand, we can’t really say that submission is an act of will and we aren’t quite able to make it, so we shouldn’t be expected to obey will-lessly (somehow three l’s in a row just don’t feel right)… and dodge the whole issue. See where it can possibly lead?
Another idea I’m having here as a result of what you’ve just said is that good leadership is tailored. Leading the average person, less intelligent than the presumably smart leader, is a different thing from leading someone who’s as intelligent as we are - and indeed some leaders have to lead people who are smarter than they are… and I don’t envy those leaders a single bit. Similarly, leading a person with a strong will and a strong desire for independence and autonomy is different from leading a docile and easily obedient one. It looks like the leader has more adjusting to do than the led. On the other hand, if we have leaders, we can’t really follow them only when we like their decisions or agree with them. Sometimes we have to follow them because they are leaders and it’s their responsibility, not ours. Politics and the law are an easy parallel. We would be in utter chaos if we all followed only those laws or decisions we agree with. And the ability to enforce is not always material.
**
**
That’s actually true and I could give you examples. Let’s say the husband and wife disagree on the bringing up of children. The husband wants Catholic sacraments, theology and morality. The wife wants any less than that. Where’s room for give and take? There’s probably some room for a creative solution, but no reduction of the Catholic part anyway.
Besides, it doesn’t always have to be give and take. Sometimes it’s just give or just take. Ideally, it should be give and give.
**
**
Compromise is such an ugly word. I utterly hate it. I like solutions, but I heartfeltly despise fifty fifties and I hate arguing the way it’s done at the market. The reality of the situation, the righteousness, reasonability and correctness of the situation, the feelings of the people involved, are all infinitely more important than the balance of concession. On the other hand, one side always conceding is not exactly equitable.
I suppose in your case, you need to work on developing such a situation in which even if he makes the decision, it is agreeable to you. That means the decision shouldn’t be materially different by a large difference depending on who makes it formally. Whatever decisions Christ makes in our life (yes, another trip), even if we disagree with them, are ultimately such decisions as we would make if we had all the facts and all His selflessness and all the desire of our own good as He has (as He desires our good more than we do). I’m not really ready to develop on this thought because the headache isn’t improving any and I just couldn’t handle it.
Besides, there’s already been enough exposure to me. Maybe just that with Christ, our will concedes, our desires sometimes concede because He knows better than we do, but our needs don’t concede. Nor really do our rights if we have any. I guess that example should be followed as regards husbands. Though what’s the wife got to do if she has a problem is more difficult because, well, husbands are not nearly as perfect as Christ is. On the other hand, wives aren’t exactly at the same stage of perfectness as the Church is, either. Guess we just have to put up with some things sometimes and the hardest part is getting over ourselves. It’s a more tedious work if it’s one-sided, for sure, so it’d better be coordinated. Now, good night. Really.
C
chevalier
Guest
To serve and not to give orders, more like. He still did lead.
M
mariam1976
Guest
i agree… but the way that he lead to was the way of sacrificial love… except where the church is concerned where he was willing to fight for her ( like at the temple where he drove out the vendors)To serve and not to give orders, more like. He still did lead.
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