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1beleevr
Guest
But you see, r4j, no one is attacking the Truth, it would be pointless, as He is above all reproach and attack!
- Status
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caoindealbhan
Guest
The Catholic Church was born in the Roman Empire, a realm which had stringent laws that could not be bent. Everything was black and white. Protestant Denominations, especially the Anglican Church comes from a more democratic evolution(The Magna Carta, etc.) in solving problems. Protestants have a reticence to “define” since it would exclude certain parties. This is the basis for the struggle between the Catholic Church and other Christian denominations.
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1beleevr
Guest
Interesting, that the word “struggle” is used between God’s people rather than against the enemy
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Ceil-1
Guest
So you consider each other ememies because yo do not share the same doctrine? It is unfortunate, to be sure, but, we should be outdoing each other in kindness, a type of holy rivalry, to win each other over by example.
This reminds me of today’s Mass reading:
1Timothy 6: 3-6
Whoever teaches somoething different and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the religious teaching is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid disposition for arguments and verbal disputes. From these come envy, rivalry, insults, evil suspicions, and mutual friction among pepole with corrupted minds, who are dprived of the truth, supposing religion to be a means of gain. Indeed, religion with contentment is a great gain.
Our priest told us not to argue religion. It is counter productive. Live our Faith, and people will see the Truth through our example.
I immediately thought of these forums.
This reminds me of today’s Mass reading:
1Timothy 6: 3-6
Whoever teaches somoething different and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the religious teaching is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid disposition for arguments and verbal disputes. From these come envy, rivalry, insults, evil suspicions, and mutual friction among pepole with corrupted minds, who are dprived of the truth, supposing religion to be a means of gain. Indeed, religion with contentment is a great gain.
Our priest told us not to argue religion. It is counter productive. Live our Faith, and people will see the Truth through our example.
I immediately thought of these forums.
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sckcd
Guest
So very true. Lots of arguing here. All Christians should stop bickering over doctrine. A Christian is a Christian is a Christian in my book.
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1beleevr
Guest
ceil-1: I hate arguing about things spiritual, too; just echoing the words of the poster about struggles! Saw a sign the other day that read:Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship with God, through Jesus Christ. Religion is man’s attempt to get back to God by human mans. God did not invent religion, man did." And I too believe that a Christian is a Christian, is a Christian! I am denomination blind, and see your heart, not your religious title!
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rinnie
Guest
Lol, maybe Mormons are Protestants by definition in that they do not follow the Catholic Church. But Mormons are definitely not similiar to Methodists, Baptists, Disciples of Christ, etc. That’s why as technically a lifelong Protestant, I usually just say I’m a Baptist if someone wants specifics, but mostly I just call myself a Christian. And I have never heard of a church that is simply called Protestant Church.
Yes every Church that is not Catholic is called Protestant. So sorry you are stuck with them. Here is what Protestant means anyone who Protests the Catholic Church. So every other faith by def. means Protestant. So rather they are Mormons, or Non-Baptists, etc they are Protestants.
But Christians are anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. That would be Protestants and Catholics.
So again sorry you get em!
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rinnie
Guest
As much as I would love to agree with this I must say I can’t. People attack the truth everyday when they attack the word of God and try to replace themself with the Apostles and claim they have the Power to teach the word the way they see fit. As these threads show it just does not work. There can be only one truth, and one God, and one true Church not many. There is only on Church that has the FULLNESS OF THE TRUTH. It is the Church that was built on Peter the way the good book says.
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Ceil-1
Guest
Yes, Jesus said He could raise sons of Abraham from the stones.ceil-1: I hate arguing about things spiritual, too; just echoing the words of the poster about struggles! Saw a sign the other day that read:Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship with God, through Jesus Christ. Religion is man’s attempt to get back to God by human mans. God did not invent religion, man did." And I too believe that a Christian is a Christian, is a Christian! I am denomination blind, and see your heart, not your religious title!
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ljubim
Guest
Half of the things you attribute to me saying, I didn’t say. Seriously?? That’s not what kind of Forum this is.ijubim: Someone is only my enemy, if they make themselves my enemy! I don’t look at anyone, Christian or not, and say,“Man, I hate that person!”. Sometimes, I do feel like because I don’t believe the way that someone else does, that they make me their enemy. What an awful situation; that God’s people would choose to separarte themselves from each other, based on differences in doctrine
Listen, I’ve had people be really nasty to me about my religion. So if you are trying to say that anti-catholicism is either made up or exaggerated, then you are WRONG. This is not an opinion, it is factual.
(and btw it’s Ljubim
)
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masuwerte
Guest
Did Fr. Ricardo properly attribute that quote to CS Lewis, I wonder?
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KingTheoden
Guest
I didn’t see the context of the comment unfortunately. Sometimes we have to digest bold statements to get from them the fullness of meaning. For example, most of us recall Christ’s words ‘Get behind me satan!’ to St. Peter. Jesus was not being soft with with word choice, but He was not saying Peter was satan. The directness belies (and enhances in fact) the nuance and deeper meaning.
I think that is unfortunate you have experienced that. Certainly we will find uncharitable or arrogant people in any large group. There in no question that one can go to a medium sized American parish that celebrates an ‘inclusive’ liturgy and find no less arrogant or pushy people.
In fact some will argue that the arrogance in the two cases are quite distinct; though arrogance is never a good thing, my inference is that some TLM supporters let on that they do not like typical Novus Ordo masses for various reasons. On the contrary, many of us have seen and deal with very charitably pushy EMHCs, who are almost never really needed but sometimes participate so they can feel more involved.
This is something I have never seen. I have not seen traditionalists avoid Novus Ordo types as some sort of cultural trait. Now, some people (traditional and otherwise) might distance themselves from those who flaunt the Church’s teachings for the purpose of their own salvation. In most cases, such is a tough and hard fought decision.
In my own life, I have left some to themselves because their overwelming tendancy to certain sins and hatred of the Church are things that I can only charitably confront so many times before I begin to get affected by their corruption. That does not mean we scream in their faces ‘I’m never talking to you again!
!!’ Rather, it is done quitely.Again, the progressives and more liberal ecumenists can be accused of precisely the same charge of being bossy. Remember, for decades TLM went underground and the modernists made out TLM to be some kind of heresy and anyone uncomfortable with folk/pop masses ostracized.
Sounds pretty darn bossy to me.
We must also see where a traditionist type is coming from. He or she sees a Church still in turmoil filled with dissenters and trouble makers. If SSPX is to be admonished, what are we to make of certain Bishops who openly defy the Pope on various teachings?
This traditionalist also sees a world awash in pornography, consumerism, divorce, and profound economic inequality. Society, particularly the West, is in big trouble.
All of this has coincided with the post VII era of an apparent ‘softening’ of the Church. This (usually young) priest, brother, or layman determines, with fair logic, that the answer is not an even more ecumenical solution, which only waters down the Faith, but rather a zealous re-commitment to what it means to be a part of Christ’s Church.
I see it differently. First, I am just not seeing this ‘traditionalist’ bossiness that could begin to compare with know-it-all modernist progressives.
For traditionalists, the concept of submission is embraced and they believe it is part of their work on this Earth to share the fullness of the Gospel message. Frankly, this notion will help as we must approach Muslims more in the coming years.
As a former Protestant, I very freely say that I probably would not have made it because my life was chock full of sin on so many levels that I failed to even realize it until I began the process of conversion. What is systemic to Protestantism in particular and schism in general is that it deprives people of grace and all of the earthly help the Church has through her priests. I am glad some took a harder line with me to encourage conversion rather than just paper over things and look at ‘commonalities.’
I am FAAAAAR from perfect, but I am better than where I was and soley to the credit of God - in large part directly through His church.
Humility is a necessity. No question about that. But unconfidence is not a virtue and I think it will be a process for people, who are generally younger to begin with, to temper that confidence just right.
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1beleevr
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wisdomseeker: So, in post #70, what exactly is your point?
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1beleevr
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ljubim: First of all, please accept my apology for misspelling your screen name; it was an oversight on my part! secondly, I didn’t accuse you of saying anything, merely replying to your post
And I have never said that anticatholicism was not real(well it is for catholics), I am just amazed by how you react to it. If you want to call it persecution, then you must weigh it against what His disciples endured, especially Paul!
And I have never said that anticatholicism was not real(well it is for catholics), I am just amazed by how you react to it. If you want to call it persecution, then you must weigh it against what His disciples endured, especially Paul!
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1beleevr
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:king theoden: I surely hope, that you don’t attribute your being “full of sin”, on the fact that you were a Protestant; when it really would be the sin nature in you, as Paul says! And I’m sure that you are not implying that your conversion, has reduced your sin, thus giving the “rest” of us the idea, thaat becoming a catholic will lessen your vulnerability to sin Regardless of where a Christian worships, he/she is constantly bombarded by sinful thoughts, temptation and other unChristlike behaviors! But I applaud your conviction to remedy your situation, by converting! God bless you, my brother in Christ, and may He continue to lead you into more Truth!
Regardless of where a Christian worships, he/she is constantly bombarded by sinful thoughts, temptation and other unChristlike behaviors! But I applaud your conviction to remedy your situation, by converting! God bless you, my brother in Christ, and may He continue to lead you into more Truth!
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Tartini
Guest
I have wrestled with the question of why anti-Catholic sentiment exists for many years. The various answers or possible answers that have crossed my path range from the simple fact that most people are just too lazy to do the research, to bad land deals that were attempted many centuries ago. The list became so diverse with possibilities, that I was forced to resort to the obvious reason that would be evident mostly today.
I have come to the logical conclusion, based on many of the statements that issue from the mouth of an anti-Catholic person, that they suffer from a great deal more than one might imagine. Ignorance breeds fear and fear can breed contempt. To argue (or rather discuss) the aspects of the Catholic Church to one who is obviously set in their beliefs, no matter how much in error they may be, is no more productive than boxing with the air. You are attempting to engage in battle with someone who has no weapons, and that would not be fair. It often makes the value of education skyrocket when one meets up with that certain individual who professes the “truth” but thinks the Holy Eucharist is a statue. When this happens, one knows that they have very little chance of winning over such a blatantly ignorant opponent.
I have found that it is best to keep a cool head, speak very sparingly, and give them proper references as to the questions that they may have. When they make certain “statements of truth” out of ignorance, challenge them to prove their point. I can assure you that even their practice of Sola Scriptura will be of no avail once you point out (and prove) the fact that what they are doing is very un-biblical. Never argue to the point of pointlessness.Be aware of defending your faith without resorting to proving the other person correct in their error by losing control of your emotions.
One of the principal keys is to never make or agree with the statement “to each his own” and rest assured with the utmost confidence that only the Catholic Church hold the fullness of Truth, which is in Christ. Remeber, one can only be in serious sin if they are told the Truth and then deny it and hold on to error. It the protestant mind is incapable of knowing the Truth, they are not at fault by invincible ignorance.
In a nutshell, I have found that one cannot engage in any truly serious conversation with those who are obstinately ignorant, but that prayer seems to work more wonders than a roomful of books.
I have come to the logical conclusion, based on many of the statements that issue from the mouth of an anti-Catholic person, that they suffer from a great deal more than one might imagine. Ignorance breeds fear and fear can breed contempt. To argue (or rather discuss) the aspects of the Catholic Church to one who is obviously set in their beliefs, no matter how much in error they may be, is no more productive than boxing with the air. You are attempting to engage in battle with someone who has no weapons, and that would not be fair. It often makes the value of education skyrocket when one meets up with that certain individual who professes the “truth” but thinks the Holy Eucharist is a statue. When this happens, one knows that they have very little chance of winning over such a blatantly ignorant opponent.
I have found that it is best to keep a cool head, speak very sparingly, and give them proper references as to the questions that they may have. When they make certain “statements of truth” out of ignorance, challenge them to prove their point. I can assure you that even their practice of Sola Scriptura will be of no avail once you point out (and prove) the fact that what they are doing is very un-biblical. Never argue to the point of pointlessness.Be aware of defending your faith without resorting to proving the other person correct in their error by losing control of your emotions.
One of the principal keys is to never make or agree with the statement “to each his own” and rest assured with the utmost confidence that only the Catholic Church hold the fullness of Truth, which is in Christ. Remeber, one can only be in serious sin if they are told the Truth and then deny it and hold on to error. It the protestant mind is incapable of knowing the Truth, they are not at fault by invincible ignorance.
In a nutshell, I have found that one cannot engage in any truly serious conversation with those who are obstinately ignorant, but that prayer seems to work more wonders than a roomful of books.
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KingTheoden
Guest
UGH! must be a forum feature that prevents pasting into the textbox from a word processor! Have to retype it all!:king theoden: I surely hope, that you don’t attribute your being “full of sin”, on the fact that you were a Protestant; when it really would be the sin nature in you, as Paul says! And I’m sure that you are not implying that your conversion, has reduced your sin, thus giving the “rest” of us the idea, thaat becoming a catholic will lessen your vulnerability to sin
It is not a yes/no situation. In the end, we sin by our own fault in failing to follow God.
What I constantly ran into, not just directly but also as a more matter-of-fact way of living, is that the concept of sin is very malleable. I have read many noted Protestants that contend that personal (i.e. involving onself only)
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KingTheoden
Guest
Ignore the above post.
A really strange (and annoying) character limit for editing must be in place. Retyped everything and it would not let me post, so I had to try it in pieces. Then the 20 minute timer went out.
Tomorrow I will post up the rest. For now, I want to be sure to add what was my final line, “I appreciate your kind words 1beleever!”
A really strange (and annoying) character limit for editing must be in place. Retyped everything and it would not let me post, so I had to try it in pieces. Then the 20 minute timer went out.
Tomorrow I will post up the rest. For now, I want to be sure to add what was my final line, “I appreciate your kind words 1beleever!”
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1beleevr
Guest
tartini:Thank you for that insightful post!:clapping:And I have found ignorance on both sides, so it is not an affliction reserved solely for non-catholics; it’as just on some occasions, some catholics throw in a dash of arrogance And I must be meeting the wrong catholics! Every one I’ve met, is either cheating on his/her spouse, getting drunk every weekend, and dropping F-bombs, and God d…s! Correct me if I’m wrong, but did Jesus say, “you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.” Wasn’t He talking to ALL of US? And I think the only requirement to being anti-catholic, is to disagree, and or challenge their belief systemGod’s children spend an inordinate amount of time arguing/debating things, when which measured against eternity, are in and of themselves, quite trivial! I can’t bring myself to believe that when we get to Heaven,we are going to be grilled on what we wore to church, how we worshipped, or on what day! And we will all be saints, worshipping, and praising; no denominations, no religious affiliation. Hate is a very strong, and often times ugly word, but it happens a lot; but one must guard against thinking that someone hates them, simply because they disagree. No religion holds the keys to Heaven or eternal life; these are found only in Christ! So, if you must call us ignorant, that’s swell, because as long as I am accepted by God, my Holy Father, I can be, and have been rejected by man. And I know that the eucharist is not a statue, but Mary is; right?
And I must be meeting the wrong catholics! Every one I’ve met, is either cheating on his/her spouse, getting drunk every weekend, and dropping F-bombs, and God d…s! Correct me if I’m wrong, but did Jesus say, “you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free.” Wasn’t He talking to ALL of US? And I think the only requirement to being anti-catholic, is to disagree, and or challenge their belief systemGod’s children spend an inordinate amount of time arguing/debating things, when which measured against eternity, are in and of themselves, quite trivial! I can’t bring myself to believe that when we get to Heaven,we are going to be grilled on what we wore to church, how we worshipped, or on what day! And we will all be saints, worshipping, and praising; no denominations, no religious affiliation. Hate is a very strong, and often times ugly word, but it happens a lot; but one must guard against thinking that someone hates them, simply because they disagree. No religion holds the keys to Heaven or eternal life; these are found only in Christ! So, if you must call us ignorant, that’s swell, because as long as I am accepted by God, my Holy Father, I can be, and have been rejected by man. And I know that the eucharist is not a statue, but Mary is; right?- Status