Any free agent is an uncaused cause

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Vico said:
A faulty premise is: “Anything which is structured cannot be free”.

That implies that voluntary choice or decision is impossible even where God makes it possible.
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That is a correct premise: The behavior of anything which is structured is a function of behavior of parts, parts being irreducible. Why? Because we don’t have anything but the parts. Therefore anything which is structured cannot be free.
 
CRM_Brother said:
You seem to be blending two very different areas of philosophy: Epistomology and Metaphysical Causality. Causation does not require knowledge. Knowledge is the specific purview of the mind and yet objects without a mind can have causation. If you raise a rock into the air and then let go, gravity will cause it to fall. The rock does not have knowledge of the gravity as it doesn’t even have a mind to comprehend that knowledge. Yet, it is still caused to fall.
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I am not blending them. What I am saying is that for any causation you need a prior knowledge. I think you believe that God sustains things in motion, stone in your example.
CRM_Brother said:
Following the logic in your propositions, then the easiest way to ensure your freedom is to simply refuse to accept knowledge. If there is no knowledge, there is no causation. Logic and philosophy become detrimental to freedom.
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We have three things in here in order: Knowledge, free decision and causation. You won’t have any option without knowledge. Freedom is a property of mind. Causation then is allowed upon decision.
CRM_Brother said:
No. This is against your definition of free will. Not mine.
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What is your definition of free will?
CRM_Brother said:
How can you be biased by nature? It is an integral part of the quidity of the thing in question. You can never separate the nature of the mind from the act of the mind. The very nature of the mind is to think (among other things). Therefore, according to your logic, no thought is free because it is influenced and compelled by the nature of the mind. You never addressed the main point with respect to nature, you simply said it’s wrong. If it is wrong, how can we reject our mind’s inherent nature in order to be free?
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We have intellect and will as properties of mind. With first we think and with the second we decide. What I am arguing is that you can be free of any thought when you decide.
 
STT said:
The very act of decision is an uncaused cause since otherwise your decision is affected by something else which means it is caused. Therefore any free agent is an uncaused cause.
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Free doesn’t mean unmoved or unactualized.
 
o_mlly said:
If a thing cannot cause then that thing cannot be a cause. ???
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Uncaused in here simply means uncreated. The person is sum of mind and body. Mind cannot cause anything without body. That however doesn’t mean that mind is not uncaused/uncreated.
 
o_mlly said:
Do you believe you are uncaused?
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Yes. I have an argument for that based on fact that I am free:
  1. The causation requires knowledge
  2. Knowledge is structured
  3. Therefore any caused thing is structured
  4. Anything which is structured cannot be free
  5. Therefore one cannot cause a thing which is free
 
STT said:
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Wesrock:
Free doesn’t mean unmoved or unactualized.
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You are unmoved when you make free decision.
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Not true. 10 char.
 
STT said:
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Vico:
A faulty premise is: “Anything which is structured cannot be free”.

That implies that voluntary choice or decision is impossible even where God makes it possible.
Click to expand...
That is a correct premise: The behavior of anything which is structured is a function of behavior of parts, parts being irreducible. Why? Because we don’t have anything but the parts. Therefore anything which is structured cannot be free.
Click to expand...
So really you are saying that the behavior of a thing which is not structured is of itself. Note that mind (soul) is not structured, it is immaterial, but it does have powers.
 
Wesrock said:
Not true. 10 char.
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I have an argument for that:
  1. The causation requires knowledge
  2. Knowledge is structured
  3. Therefore any caused thing is structured
  4. Anything which is structured cannot be free
  5. Therefore one cannot cause a thing which is free
 
o_mlly said:
Does the acorn have knowledge of the oak tree it causes?
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In here, I am arguing in regards to creation of a free agent by God. But even in case of acorn, knowledge is encrypted within in so it can develop to an oak tree.
 
STT said:
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Vico:
So really you are saying that the behavior of a thing which is not structured is of itself.
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Yes. It could be free.
Vico said:
Note that mind (soul) is not structured, it is immaterial, but it does have powers.
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Yes. Mind is uncaused.
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In Christianity, all souls (minds, Etymology is: Latin mens , mind, intellect, spirit) are spirit that is created (caused) ex nihilo by God. You can get the understanding from Modern Catholic Dictionary:
Immortality – Freedom from death or the capacity to decay and disintegrate. Absolute immortality is possessed by God alone, who has no body and whose spirit is eternal by essence. He cannot not exist; he always has been and must be. Natural immortality belongs to all spiritual beings, namely the angels and human souls, who are created indeed and therefore begin, but since they are simple by nature and have no parts, they will not die, although absolutely speaking, they could be annihilated by an act of God.

Gratuitous immortality is a special grace, given originally by God to the ancestors of the human race and restored by Christ as a promise after the last day. It means freedom from bodily death and from separation of the soul from the human body.
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You need to define your version of “free”. I suspect it isnt mainstream catholic.

Are those who receive the Beatific Vision “free” if they cannot do otherwise?
Catholic answer: yes they are still free.
 
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By free I mean that the agent is not subjected to options. For example he/she could chooses the option that he/she dislike to show that she/he is free.
 
STT said:
Thanks. I am aware of that.
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You wrote that you believe you are uncaused based on fact that you are free. You wrote:
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STT:
  1. The causation requires knowledge
  2. Knowledge is structured
  3. Therefore any caused thing is structured
  4. Anything which is structured cannot be free
  5. Therefore one cannot cause a thing which is free
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Yet we are created (caused) souls (minds) and we have free will. It is inconsistent with your 3 above.
 
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