Any free agent is an uncaused cause

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STT said:
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Vico:
Yet we are created (caused) souls (minds) and we have free will. It is inconsistent with your 3 above.
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I don’t think that our minds are created.
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I read that. I think you are assuming it, since it is inconsistent with the concept of a creature. You would have to start by saying something like the Buddhists, that there is no creator.
 
Our decisions most of the time are affected by a specific option. Think of situation that you have two options where you like one more than another one. You naturally pick up the one you like. This means that the option affects your decision. That is not the case when you make a free decision. This for example happens when you like two options equally. That means that an option cannot affect your decision since you like it the same as another. You however still have ability to choose one of the option. This is free decision which means that your choice is not affected by an option.
 
Well I am sorry but your problem with Catholic teaching is likely your very different definition of “freedom”.

The Catholic Church has never to my knowledge ever seen an intrinsic connection between lack of options and lack of free will.

Which is why the Beatific Vision, where the saints have no other option, is also a fully free choice.
 
STT said:
The very act of decision is an uncaused cause since otherwise your decision is affected by something else which means it is caused. Therefore any free agent is an uncaused cause.
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Any agent free or otherwise, doesn’t just show up, it was caused.
 
STT said:
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Vico:
I read that.
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Cool.
Vico said:
I think you are assuming it, since it is inconsistent with the concept of a creature.
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I am just assuming that we are free and argue that our mind cannot be created.
Vico said:
You would have to start by saying something like the Buddhists, that there is no creator.
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Buddhism or Hinduism?

By the way, there still could be a first cause, creator, who creates physical.
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Buddhism.
The essence of the person is the soul, since the physical is not immortal, so there would be no creator of the person.
 
Any free entity cannot be caused. Your mind is uncaused cause but your body not. I have an argument for that:
  1. The causation requires knowledge
  2. Knowledge is structured
  3. Therefore any caused thing is structured
  4. Anything which is structured cannot be free
  5. Therefore one cannot cause a thing which is free
 
STT said:
Any free entity cannot be caused. Your mind is uncaused cause but your body not. I have an argument for that:
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MY mind and yours, is caused by the creation of yours and my mind by God. IOW, No you or me, then no mind of STT or steve-b
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STT:
  1. The causation requires knowledge
  2. Knowledge is structured
  3. Therefore any caused thing is structured
  4. Anything which is structured cannot be free
  5. Therefore one cannot cause a thing which is free
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Without the uncaused cause of everything (God) doing His work of creation, there would be nothing that is.
 
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STT said:
Don’t Buddhists believe that there is no self?
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In Buddhism there is the concept of anatta, not-soul, but not all agree about the self, which is said by some to actually be nirvana – but this is a final state before which one will use anatta concept as a tool.
In Hinduism there is Atman.
 
I am familiar with these. You need to find an error in my argument.
 
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STT said:
I am familiar with these. You need to find an error in my argument.

Any free entity cannot be caused. Your mind is uncaused cause but your body not.
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steve-b:
define what you mean by “free entity”
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steve-b:
MY mind and yours, is caused by the creation of yours and my mind by God. IOW, No you or me, then no mind of STT or steve-b
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STT:
Code: 
    The causation requires knowledge
    Knowledge is structured
    Therefore any caused thing is structured
    Anything which is structured cannot be free
    Therefore one cannot cause a thing which is free
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God is completely free to do what He wants.

without God, the uncaused cause creating everything that is, there is no creation, ergo no causes nor effects of anything because no thing would exist
 
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steve-b said:
God is completely free to do what He wants.

without God, the uncaused cause creating everything that is, there is no creation, ergo no causes nor effects of anything because no thing would exist
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Where is error in my argument? God of course cannot do whatever He wants.
 
steve-b said:
Anything which is structured cannot be free Therefore one cannot cause a thing which is free
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When you wrote

Where is error in my argument? God of course cannot do whatever He wants.

then you wrote

Anything which is structured cannot be free
Therefore one cannot cause a thing which is free

I’ll just say

(God is) and He is free to create or not create.
 
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