G
gazelam
Guest
For a better understanding of the history of the Adam-God theory, please refer to this short video.
Last edited:
- Status
G
gazelam
Guest
Please share the teachings from the Book of Mormon that contradict Latter-day Saint belief.
Paul stated plainly that his teachings came from the revelation of Jesus Christ (See Galatians 1:11, 12). I would seem odd (to me anyway) that if another group were taught the same message, that they wouldn’t use the same language.
There are plenty of unresolved historical issues (here’s one) regarding the Bible. Recently, Nahom from the Book of Mormon was discovered. You can go there today!
I always find it intriguing when former Latter-day Saints cite previous callings and genealogy, as if it shows they have some sort of street cred.
How many of us CAFers do our own original research? Very few will ever learn ancient Greek well enough to become a recognized expert.
The plates were seen by at least 12 men. And were either seen or felt by at least 5 women.
Any knowledgeable Trinitarian would look at CES Letter #11 about the supposed Trinitarian teachings in the Book of Mormon and just shake their head.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
You aren’t seeming to grasp that in this parable, money is a metaphor for heaven and the landowner is a metaphor for God.
Therefore, literally asking about monetary payment is, to put it bluntly, goofy.
Stephen168
New member
Actually, you are wrong as I said earlier in the thread.
H
Horton
Guest
Then you really do not understand the concept of parables. Much of Christian teaching comes for the use of the parables of Jesus. @RebeccaJ gave you a perfectly good explanation of how a parable works.
Although this does explain some things about the LDS.
Although this does explain some things about the LDS.
A
Arandur
Guest
Bunch to catch up on. But really much can be summed up by the fact that Mormonism’s many Gnostic elements (like the idea that matter or “intelligences” are “eternal”) are themselves very Hellenic concepts. So it’s pretty laughable to call it a “re-Judaized” or “un-Hellenized” Judeo-Christianity.
Also, I find that Mormonism is rife with alternate definitions and very sloppy switching among the senses of terms, as well as false dichotomies and lack of distinctions. One example here is “in the beginning.” God created time. He exists apart from time. “In the beginning” is a time reference. God is the only uncreated thing, and any reference to creation from the beginning is after the creation of time. Scripture in multiple places refers to God as origin and creator and sustainer of all. It’s really sad to try to force Gnostic ideas, even if they seem supported by an ECF or two (often by imprecise language or out of context or extrapolating too much from a phrase). ECFs indicate contemporary thought and understanding, but they also disagree on things, and do not supersede Gospel or Church Authority. Even the Doctors of the Church have said some things later clarified by the Church differently.
Also, I find that Mormonism is rife with alternate definitions and very sloppy switching among the senses of terms, as well as false dichotomies and lack of distinctions. One example here is “in the beginning.” God created time. He exists apart from time. “In the beginning” is a time reference. God is the only uncreated thing, and any reference to creation from the beginning is after the creation of time. Scripture in multiple places refers to God as origin and creator and sustainer of all. It’s really sad to try to force Gnostic ideas, even if they seem supported by an ECF or two (often by imprecise language or out of context or extrapolating too much from a phrase). ECFs indicate contemporary thought and understanding, but they also disagree on things, and do not supersede Gospel or Church Authority. Even the Doctors of the Church have said some things later clarified by the Church differently.
Stephen168
New member
My Mormon friend and I went to the World’s Fair in Spokane, Washington and he was excited to show me the Mormon Church’s exhibit telling the story about how the golden plates were translated. The building was designed to look like the plates. I guess that story is gone now as well as the claim that the Book of Mormon is a history of all the American Indians.
Did Joseph Smith use the Urim and Thummin to translate golden plates or did he use a peep stone in a hat?
R
ReaderT
Guest
There are different versions of this story apparently - I read that he put the Urim and Thummin in a hat and then closed his face around the rim of the hat. Then in the darkness, the “light of the Spirit” would make whole words shine on the rocks.
The LDS actually published photos of one seer stone that Smith used (he had several throughout his life):
G
gazelam
Guest
At times he used a urim and thummim and at times he used a seer stone. His wife Emma said the following in 1870: Now the first that my husband translated, [the book] was translated by use of the Urim, and Thummim, and that was the part that Martin Harris lost, after that he used a small stone, not exactly, black, but was rather a dark color. ( “Emma Smith Bidamon to Emma Pilgrim, 27 March 1870,” Early Mormon Documents , 1:532.)
A similar description can be found the Latter-day Saint magazine “The Friend” September 1974.
To help him with the translation, Joseph found with the gold plates “a curious instrument which the ancients called Urim and Thummim, which consisted of two transparent stones set in a rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate.” Joseph also used an egg-shaped, brown rock for translating called a seer stone.
I hope this helps…
Stephen168
New member
Yet, for 147 years the hat and seer stone method was never mentioned which seems to be the primary method used by Joseph Smith. Then I have to wonder the purpose of the golden plates if a seer stone and hat was the method used.
A
Arandur
Guest
It may do you well to consider that words have many senses, and that scripture is multivalent. In my experience, it is often quite frustrating to have discussions with Mormons and atheists (and to some extent, evangelicals and such) because they don’t recognize that words have many senses. They have apparent difficulty with philosophical distinctions. You may start talking about one sense, and then they jump to another sense, and attack on the basis of a different sense entirely, or get them confused.
There are many senses in which the Father and the Son are One. There are many senses of the word “Create;” adding further language to clarify and help explain the distinction about which sense is meant at any given time is philosophically useful, even necessary.
Find me a Jew that things that we create as God Creates. Ever. There is a dramatic distinction. The distinction is that God creates out of nothing, and that He creates beings (out of nothing).
There are many senses in which the Father and the Son are One. There are many senses of the word “Create;” adding further language to clarify and help explain the distinction about which sense is meant at any given time is philosophically useful, even necessary.
Find me a Jew that things that we create as God Creates. Ever. There is a dramatic distinction. The distinction is that God creates out of nothing, and that He creates beings (out of nothing).
P
Prodigal1984
Guest
That’s a rock someone could have found taking a walk by the Salt Lake. What just because it has some stripes on it means it is magical?
P
Prodigal1984
Guest
I read the Book of Mormon once some years back.
It is some bizarre stuff missionaries tell you. They say if I don’t think it is true that it is my fault and they know it is true and I need to read again and pray harder or some nonsense.
I literally read the entire thing, front to back. It didn’t seem like anything to me other than some religious fiction. I enjoyed it but I would never consider it real. I was struck for one how many verses are verse for verse from the Bible. Also many of the stories like people being saved from an earthquake in a prison and being surrounded by fire and these clouds speaking Gods voice. Yet the theme is always the same. These people were unbelievable. They go astray , come back, go astray come back, like it is the same story of and over again , year after year. It is repetitive, honestly. The fact they are speaking about the Christian view of God and even saying his name is Jesus Christ, six centuries before Christ was even born is a little stretch of the imagination. I wish I could understand how people believe this but I don’t. The whole time I read it I was like, okay plagiarism there, plagiarism there, stolen name there, animal that didn’t live in Americas at the time there…
It is some bizarre stuff missionaries tell you. They say if I don’t think it is true that it is my fault and they know it is true and I need to read again and pray harder or some nonsense.
I literally read the entire thing, front to back. It didn’t seem like anything to me other than some religious fiction. I enjoyed it but I would never consider it real. I was struck for one how many verses are verse for verse from the Bible. Also many of the stories like people being saved from an earthquake in a prison and being surrounded by fire and these clouds speaking Gods voice. Yet the theme is always the same. These people were unbelievable. They go astray , come back, go astray come back, like it is the same story of and over again , year after year. It is repetitive, honestly. The fact they are speaking about the Christian view of God and even saying his name is Jesus Christ, six centuries before Christ was even born is a little stretch of the imagination. I wish I could understand how people believe this but I don’t. The whole time I read it I was like, okay plagiarism there, plagiarism there, stolen name there, animal that didn’t live in Americas at the time there…
Last edited:
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
Someone else told me about visiting that worlds fair Mormon exhibit. What struck them is that a group was ushered into a proselytizing movie, where the doors were shut and there was no way to exit until the proselytizing was done. That was their young, first impression of Mormonism. Trapped with no way out.gazelam:
My Mormon friend and I went to the World’s Fair in Spokane, Washington and he was excited to show me the Mormon Church’s exhibit telling the story about how the golden plates were translated. The building was designed to look like the plates. I guess that story is gone now as well as the claim that the Book of Mormon is a history of all the American Indians.
Did Joseph Smith use the Urim and Thummin to translate golden plates or did he use a peep stone in a hat?
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
Exactly. There is no provenance not even for the photo of the photo. It’s a flimflam.
Last edited:
C
Chris-Wa1
Guest
That is how it all works. If you don’t “know” it’s true, then it’s YOUR fault. They are incapable of even considering the notion that maybe the problem is not with YOU. It’s a completely irrational approach, but when they’ve gown up immersed in that type of thinking all of their lives, it’s very hard for them to even contemplate the other side. It’s like their brains have been so thoroughly programmed over time that a mental block forms that won’t allow critical thinking when it comes to anything about their own beliefs.
As a Catholic, I can see why non-Catholics may have issues with our beliefs. I can see their side and understand why they don’t agree with my religion. Most active Mormons I know, however, just can’t do this. They can’t go there. It’s just mentally impossible for them. They are so utterly convinced of their own correctness that if anyone challenges them, they either become very defensive or just blow you off without ever actually trying to understand your point of view. It’s a programmed, automatic response.
Last edited:
R
RuthAnne
Guest
When I took the missionary lessons, I also read the Book of Mormon and prayed about it. God told me that it wasn’t true.
Easy enough.
Easy enough.
C
Chris-Wa1
Guest
C’mon RuthAnne, that wasn’t God, that was the Adversary. You need to go back and read it again and pray harder next time. Wash, rinse, repeat, until you get that confirmation that it IS true. Don’t be lazy.
R
RuthAnne
Guest
I’ve actually heard something like that. When I told the sister missionary that I had an answer, she told me that I was probably getting my answer from the wrong spirit. What’s that supposed to mean?
H
Horton
Guest
That any answer besides the BoM is true has to be from anything other that the spirit of JS.
- Status