Any Mormons on here read the CES Letter?

[Lemuel]

When a Catholic is in error or has made a mistake, the Church would much rather show mercy, offer consolation and gentle correction.

When a Mormon is in error, the Church will make an example of you.

 

[Chris-Wa1]

I chose hell for a lot longer than I should have. I wasted too much of my life.

When I read posts from Mormons, I get the sense they have no appreciation or sympathy for ex-LDS who went through the torment of going through a faith crisis. A true-believing Mormon has their entire life wrapped up in the church, and when they discover that it isn’t true, it’s a devastating blow that affects every aspect of their life. Their family relationships, so dependent on the religion, are often strained to the breaking point. They lose friends. They lose the community that was so integral to their daily lives. After feeling so betrayed, many lose their belief in God, or in religion in general because they don’t know who to trust anymore.

And how does the Mormon church respond to these people in crisis? With support, love, and understanding? Usually not. The culture in the Mormon church is to distance oneself from anyone who no longer believes. If you leave, the culture says something must be wrong with YOU, because most LDS cannot fathom the possibility that the church could be wrong. So the individual takes the blame. Many times rumors start that the ex-Mo must have been involved in some serious sin or wanted to leave so that they could engage in sinful behavior, which is rarely the case. That’s just a convenient way to dismiss a dissenter without considering anything they have to say. These reactions, of course, are defensive responses against the possibility that the church could ever be wrong about anything. That is a strong trait of a cult, BTW.

So those who are in crisis often keep it to themselves for many years, suffering on the inside knowing that if they speak out there could be serious consequences. The bottom line then is that people like Jeremy Runnells are not doing this out of some personal crusade against the church. They didn’t want to have their lives turned upside down. But learning the truth eventually compelled them to do something that they knew beforehand could have a terrible cost. They deserve more understanding and to have their concerns taken seriously, both by the church leadership and by the members in general. Nobody wants to throw away their life as they know it, and these are intelligent, insightful people, so to treat them so dismissively is wrong.

 

[RebeccaJ]

There is no safe venue in the Mormon church to ask questions. Asking questions indicates to local leaders that one is lacking in faith.

So people start asking their ward members what they think and know. This is viewed by Mormon leaders as sowing dissent.

Once a Mormon starts asking their questions out loud, it’s only a matter of time until they are gone. Either by leaving or getting excommunicated. If they aren’t gone it’s because they have chosen to shelve the questions or just suffer through in hope that some miracle occurs, and the questions are answered.

There aren’t answers to the questions. There’s only so many paths that one can go down when the unanswered questions become a nagging thing, that something isn’t right in the land of Mormonism.

No Man Know My History is 75 (!) years back. The CES letter asks the same questions now. Platitudes and personal attacks against the people asking the questions, including attacking them for “sowing dissent”, is the Mormon way to address what can’t be answered.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Excommunication is rare in Catholicism. We take the sacraments seriously. Our way back to God is via the sacrament of reconciliation. Excommunicating someone removes them from their way back. It is essentially, condemning them to hell.

This is why we say the church is merciful, as Christ is the head and has gifted us with the ultimate mercy, our salvation. The sacrament of reconciliation flows from the same font of mercy and love.

If we thought ourselves perfect, we wouldn’t need the sacraments or Jesus. If the church thought the members, the body of Christ, were perfect, she wouldn’t be calling us to repentance on a daily basis.

Removing people from grace, for asking questions, is cruel. There has to be a much more serious matter than asking questions.

There is also the reality of self-excommunication. Some Catholics do so quite regularly. Self imposed exile can end, via the sacrament of reconciliation. (Asking questions isn’t an act of self excommunication. Grave sins are, and asking questions is not a grave sin. Also, real expressions of dissent, are not grave sins.)

Also, IMO, historical excommunication have not born out to be a fruitful measure. The excommunicated can come to be viewed as a like minded person who should be followed.

Mormons especially have this thing, for following someone. Some have tried to make Runnels the leader of a following and he has explicitly said, he does not want followers.

This has not always been the case with people who have left Mormonism. They take followers with them. Excommunication gives credence to the follower’s leader.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Catholic excommunication is based on unrepentant grave sin.

Asking questions is not a sin.

Mormonism has what Martha Beck called the eleventh commandment. Thou shall not commit publicity. It is a Mormon sin, to go against this Mormon commandment. The penalty for this sin is excommunication.

 

[Lemuel]

When I read posts from Mormons, I get the sense they have no appreciation or sympathy for ex-LDS who went through the torment of going through a faith crisis.

I don’t think of it as a faith crisis. I think of it more as a truth crisis. Finding out that you’ve been lied to your whole life is tough to handle.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It’s infuriating.

 

[Lemuel]

Many times rumors start that the ex-Mo must have been involved in some serious sin or wanted to leave so that they could engage in sinful behavior, which is rarely the case.

It’s not why I left, but I do enjoy my morning coffee and my evening beer

I also like taking my family out to dinner on Sunday without being labeled a sinner for it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

This is a difference between LDS and Catholics, yes? Catholics don’t excommunicate you for apostasy. Do I understand that right? You can be a Catholic and believe, even preach, whatever you want, whether it adheres to Catholic belief or not, without risk of excommunication. If you’re a priest, they might defrock you or something, but the average lay member finds it pretty hard to get kicked out of Catholicism.

NT, this just says so much.

It explains why Mormons quote every Catholic that has ever written anything, as authoritative on Catholicism.

We follow Christ in freedom. We form our conscience, in freedom. Coercing people via threats of excommunication, is a form of enslavement.

Apostasy is defined very clearly in Canon Law as “the total repudiation of the Christian faith”. Asking questions, or expressing dissent against Catholic teachings or clergy (including the pope), is not apostasy. The intent is considered as well as other factors, and could become or be called heresy.

Doubt, asking questions, expressing dissent, are normal. As Catholics we can and do all those things. It’s part of the process for forming ones conscience and so integral to worshipping in freedom. (Heresy could develop, and is also well defined.)

https://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/heresy_schism_apostasy.htm
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a6.htm

 

[Lemuel]

Jeremy starts out the CES letter with a very poignant quote:

“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.” ~ PRESIDENT J. REUBEN CLARK

Isn’t this all about truth? Isn’t this all about investigation? The Mormon church goes to great lengths to prevent investigations. Unless, of course, it falls in line with their definition of truth.

 

[Lemuel]

The sorry truth is that the Mormon church totally flubbed the way they handled the CES letter. They could have just answered his questions and moved on. Instead, there has been a ton of collateral damage.

I guess the problem is that they couldn’t have just answered his questions and moved on because there were not good answers.

Nothing like being caught between a rock and a hard place . . .

 

[RebeccaJ]

The letter prompted the creation of essays related to the CES questions. Something unheard of, even if they have a platitude and half truth nature to them. Lol

 

[OKComputer]

I think the essays caused more problems. I know of members who started there to solve a problem because it’s “approved” and they just made it worse. Mormonism is a mess, a total mess and eventually the truth comes out. Mormons can’t run from it forever. The church is in a free fall for a reason and once Africa (the only place where the church is growing) gets internet connections and becomes more educated, the Mormon church will stop growing there too.

 

[Lemuel]

Does anyone besides me wonder why nobody claims authorship of these essays?

 

[NeuroTypical]

There is no safe venue in the Mormon church to ask questions. Asking questions indicates to local leaders that one is lacking in faith.

So people start asking their ward members what they think and know. This is viewed by Mormon leaders as sowing dissent.

Once a Mormon starts asking their questions out loud, it’s only a matter of time until they are gone.

Heh. Last year, there was an effort from some folks to read through the CES letter and ask themselves all the questions. The folks doing it included the Young Men’s leader and the 1st counselor of the bishopric. We talked about it openly in the clerk’s office many Sundays before we started tithing.

Many years ago I decided to go to an “are Mormons Christian” class thrown by our local mega-church. The bishop had a passing interest in what they were teaching, and asked me occasionally - and that was the extent of it.

The forum at thirdhour.net isn’t an official arm of the church, but the board running it includes general authorities. Been there for decades, participated in countless threads where people come to ask questions.

And yes, I’ve been on one side or the other of three or four disciplinary councils. Never was it about asking questions.

Want to know something I find notable? Catholic Answer Forums is the only place I know where members of a certain faith come to ask members of the same faith about other faiths. Can’t swing a dead cat here without hitting a “what’s up with Muslims” thread, or “why do protestants think this”, or “tell me why Jews do this”. I find it fascinating. If you want to know more about Muslims or protestants or Jews, why go to a Catholic board and ask Catholics? Why not go find one and ask them directly? I just don’t see that stuff happening any where else.

 

[RebeccaJ]

RebeccaJ:

There is no safe venue in the Mormon church to ask questions. Asking questions indicates to local leaders that one is lacking in faith.

So people start asking their ward members what they think and know. This is viewed by Mormon leaders as sowing dissent.

Once a Mormon starts asking their questions out loud, it’s only a matter of time until they are gone.

Heh. Last year, there was an effort from some folks to read through the CES letter and ask themselves all the questions. The folks doing it included the Young Men’s leader and the 1st counselor of the bishopric. We talked about it openly in the clerk’s office many Sundays before we started tithing.

Many years ago I decided to go to an “are Mormons Christian” class thrown by our local mega-church. The bishop had a passing interest in what they were teaching, and asked me occasionally - and that was the extent of it.

The forum at thirdhour.net isn’t an official arm of the church, but the board running it includes general authorities. Been there for decades, participated in countless threads where people come to ask questions.

And yes, I’ve been on one side or the other of three or four disciplinary councils. Never was it about asking questions.

Want to know something I find notable? Catholic Answer Forums is the only place I know where members of a certain faith come to ask members of the same faith about other faiths. Can’t swing a dead cat here without hitting a “what’s up with Muslims” thread, or “why do protestants think this”, or “tell me why Jews do this”. I find it fascinating. If you want to know more about Muslims or protestants or Jews, why go to a Catholic board and ask Catholics? Why not go find one and ask them directly? I just don’t see that stuff happening any where else.

I know, I’ve been in on those types of conversations. They are about shoring up the dam, not about asking why there is a dam. Much different to be the person asking a bishop “why”, while knowing he’s thinking “here’s a person to quarantine”. You were “safe” in your little chummy group, because you were not viewing each other as threats.

Asking questions in a internet forum is a safe venue, but it is not a church run venue. Also, people questioning are well aware that online activity is reported to bishops and other leaders. So online venues are only as safe while anonymity is kept intact. By safe venue, I mean, in the ward, where people know your name and who you are, and won’t view the questioner as a current or future pariah.

As for CAF…the forum is large enough that people from every faith are participating. You can ask why does some other faith do this or think that, and someone from that faith answers.

Mormon-run boards I’ve read are, well Mormon. Anyone who questions, and doesn’t accept the immediate answers, are run off with accusations of being trolls or dissenters. This includes lds.net.

 

[Lemuel]

I’ve never gone to any Mormon boards since I left the church. I don’t feel a need to justify what I have done. I’m very secure and happy in my decision to leave the Mormon cult. Mormons toss this phrase around, “They can leave the church but they can’t leave the church alone,” to belittle ex-Mos who go onto Mormon forums and spread anti-Mormon messages. And here, we have ex-Catholics who have left the church but can’t leave it alone, so go figure. And I do believe that a lot of it is trolling . . . here on CAF as well as ex-Mos on lds.net.

 

[Akitaiso]

Sorry. Hit the wrong button and flagged you. I have no problem with your comment.
I do have a question though. Been reading this thread (Catholic here), and was wondering about the 1830 edition of the Book Of Mormon. I have the usual translation the missionaries offer. Is the 1830 edition in public domain or online?
Thank you!

 

[Lemuel]

Also, people questioning are well aware that online activity is reported to bishops and other leaders.

Known as the Strengthening Church Members Committee, the CIA of the Mormon church, where members spy and report on other members for questionable blogs, forums, podcasts, and just general spreading of difficult Mormon issues on social websites. A somewhat covert committee that church leaders were caught on tape denying existed until that bag of beans was spilled. More conveniently referred to as “lying for the Lord.”

 

[Lemuel]

Is the 1830 edition in public domain or online?

It’s all over the internet. Here’s one of many links:

https://carm.org/mormonism/1830-book-of-mormon