Any Mormons on here read the CES Letter?

[OKComputer]

If you asked any group of LDS people “Why did Joesph Smith marry 14 year olds?” or " Isn’t it strange that the The Book of Abraham has nothing to do with that Joesph said it did?" or “How come errors in the King James Bible occur in the Book of Mormon?” or “How come DNA shows that Native Americans come from Asia and not the middle east?” or "How come there are things in the book of Mormon that didn’t exist in America at the time it says it took place? (horses, chariots, goats, elephants, wheat, steel) or “How come there are is no archeological evidence for the Nephites even though there is archeological evidence for much smaller groups?” or “Why are there so many first vision accounts?” or you’d be kicked out in about three seconds. It could be a forum, a party, an elders quorum or BYU.

 

[Lemuel]

“Isn’t it strange that the The Book of Abraham has nothing to do with that Joseph said it did?”

They say that there’s nothing strange about it. They can’t explain it, so they just drop back and punt, like they usually do:

During a BBC interview with John Sweeney in March 2012, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland was asked about the Book of Abraham:

Sweeney: Mr. Smith got this papyri and he translated them and subsequently as the Egyptologists cracked the code something completely different…

Holland: All I’m saying…all I’m saying is that what got translated got translated into the word of God. The vehicle for that I do not understand and don’t claim to know and know Egyptian.

 

[Akitaiso]

Thank you so much for the info!

 

[Lemuel]

If you want to know more about Muslims or protestants or Jews, why go to a Catholic board and ask Catholics?

I would have no problem with asking a former Muslim-turned-Catholic about his/her former religion. Most of us participating in discussions about Mormonism speak from experiences within the Mormon church, not as outsiders. You share your Mormon knowledge and experiences and we do the same.

Having said that, I have to admit that I find the testimonies of ex-Mormons to generally be more honest and reliable than I do TBMs.

 

[Prodigal1984]

The weird thing is they teach us in missionary training to tell people the BOM is the same since its inception, and that this is why it is more trustworthy than the Bible because the Bible has been through so many translations. This is false for one, the Dead Sea Scrolls are proof they are the same. Also, they go around saying the KJV is the most accurate translation and it definitely is not. Also I often asked which translation ? Not many Mormons use the 1611 KJV which would be the authentic KJV.
Yah when I found out the BOM had gone through changes as well I was stunned. I had been lied too. Like we feed people so much nonsense in the mission, I warn you people, if Mormon missionaries ever come to your door, first make it clear you won’t call them by their elder or sister name, they came looking for you and there is no reason you should have to refer to them as that because then you are implying they are right. Also if you say Mormon and they correct you and say to call them members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, politely say you don’t regard them as a church of Jesus Christ and would prefer to call them Mormon. If they are offended( which they won’t be, many Mormons are upset with the recent General Conference when the new Prophet said he got a revelation that they shouldn’t be called Mormon anymore) which is strange since the last prophet embraced it; just tell them you wish not to talk then. Weird how God gives different prophets so many conflicting revelations…
It is all a joke really. The unfortunate thing is many Mormons who leave either become atheists or just spiritual but lose their faith in the Judeo Christian God. This is Satans weapon for sure.
Mormonism is all about feelings. I remember when I was a kid feeling good reading the BOM. But you know what I realised? If they had told me the Divine Comedy was the scripture to pray if it was true , that work would make me feel good too. Many works of literature make you feel good. It doesn’t mean it is the word of God. Actually , those works should probably be the ones you are careful about.

 

[Lemuel]

Also if you say Mormon and they correct you and say to call them members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,

I don’t feel comfortable with invoking the name of my Savior when I’m speaking of or to them. They’ve always been and always will be Mormons to me.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yeah, when I left there was no internet. haha Around 2000 a family member who had left Mormonism, returned. At that point it had been 15 or 20 years since I left, so I was all, what the heck? Why would someone go back? I had never looked for anything Mormon online until then, and whoa. That’s when I "discovered’ exmormon.org and also Mormon forums.

The exmormon forum just ticked me off to no end. I just had to stop reading that site. It’s painful, like a thousand knives slicing through every time I would read. Haven’t read there in decades.

The Mormon sites, I was looking at why Mormons believed and why they stayed. I engaged (posted) at that time, but don’t engage on Mormon sites any more and haven’t for years. I just read, keeping up on what’s the latest scuttlebutt, which helps when I’m around my mom, so I know what she’s talking about. Cuz she uses her Mormon terms like everyone in world knows them. (Love her to pieces.)

For example, I asked if she’s reading anything and she says “The Saints”. My mind was going…a new Deseret Book publication?..but she followed up with something about everyone in “the church” is reading this book. I haven’t gone sleuthing that one out yet, but will when I have time…because I don’t know what she was talking about. lol. I thought the only group reading everyone did was the BoM, but apparently there’s a lot more reading assignments going in the Mormon church these days.

The Mormon church I left, doesn’t exist any more, in the sense of activities and a lot of the lingo that is used today, didn’t exist when I left.

I surmise, when the old folks are gone, I won’t find the need to keep up. At that point, I’m thinking is when I will take the trouble to resign and get my name off their rolls. I haven’t really felt the need to do that, until I started poking around ancestry.com and found the Mormon church feeds their membership records to that site, so that people can attach a Mormon membership record to their dead relatives

I don’t want no stinkin’ Mormon membership attached to me, by anyone.

 

[Lemuel]

The Mormon church I left, doesn’t exist any more,

Same with me. I’ve only been out of the church for just over five years and I think that I probably wouldn’t recognize it anymore. Just before I left the church, missionary ages were changed and my son went on a mission at age 18. Now it’s a two-hour block instead of three. There are no longer separate Elders quorums and High Priest groups. Most every adult male is now an elder. Women can wear pants on their missions. Missionaries can call home every week. There’s a new mission program for those who can’t cope with the traditional 24-month proselyting mission. There’s no longer a Home Teaching program and from what I understand, they don’t call you every month to report on how many of your families you ministered to. Women have a greater role in the church. I think they did away with the old ward council meetings. No more Boy Scouts. Changes in the temple endowment. Kids of same sex couples are no longer put in the front battle lines and can now be baptized. Couples can be sealed in the temples immediately after civil weddings outside of the temples. Coffee and donuts in the cultural hall after fast and testimony meetings . . . .

I couldn’t even begin to tell you who the apostles are, anymore. I could probably name six without looking. I think even of the new ones is Chinese or something.

Oh, and I was just kidding about the coffee and donuts.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Ha! You got me…I was all whaaaaat?

My mom drinks diet coke! When I was a kid, caffeinated sodas were forbidden and she was miffed to no end when she read the soda can label and discovered that Barq’s rootbeer has caffeine in it. Now she’s all casual with the caffeinated sodas. Slippery slope to coffee, I tell ya, which is then a slippery slope to murder.

ETA: their temple ceremony has changed something like three times since I left. But I never went through the temple ceremony, and never wanted to. Those were some of the questions that no one would answer when I asked. My one experience of baptism for the dead was not good, more like traumatic for a teen. A longgg time ago and I’m not traumatized any more. ha. I wanted to know exactly what went on, and no one will say.

Further, I was a teen when the priesthood ban was lifted. I remember it as a very happy day that everyone celebrated. But prior, as early as elementary school I was questioning what I was being taught at church about skin color and curses. Experiences like that,I was lead out of Mormonism. The whitewashing that goes on today regarding those times, that I lived, is one giant eye role. Which is why I question the sanity of anyone from my generation to stay Mormon, let alone GO BACK.

It’s truly a mystery that I never figured out.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Boy you bring up a lot points that even I haven’t thought about for years.

Whenever I move, somehow, magically, the Mormon records follow me to my new ward (which I haven’t attended for 30+ years.)

Recently, I found out that someone at the Mormon HQ emails the relatives of abandoned church records, asking if they will send the new address AND phone number for the abandoned record. So invasive! If people want their whereabouts to be known by a religious organization, they would let them know. This stalking behavior is just creepy.

 

[Lemuel]

I’m off the books so they don’t stalk me. In some ways I wish they would. The things I would love to discuss with them!

We have sister missionaries in our area. I always tell my wife that if she bumps into them to invite them over. But she knows the sort of things I would ask and spares them.

The daughter of my close friend has just arrived in this mission and I’m really hoping to see her.

Is there an evil grin emoji?

 

[Fauken]

Is there an evil grin emoji?

 

[Lemuel]

Thank you!

 

[NeuroTypical]

If you want to know more about Muslims or protestants or Jews, why go to a Catholic board and ask Catholics?

shrug. When someone comes to an LDS board and asks about Catholicism, we tend to direct them to a Catholic. A notable exception might be people looking into scientology. From what I can tell, just about everybody figures they’re somewhere between weird and dangerous.

Having said that, I have to admit that I find the testimonies of ex-Mormons to generally be more honest and reliable than I do TBMs.

Similarly, I find the LDS testimonies of people who converted from other faiths to be quite strong. It can take guts and a lot of spiritual depths to leave a faith and join another (and I know I’m talking to someone who has).

 

[NeuroTypical]

Recently, I found out that someone at the Mormon HQ emails the relatives of abandoned church records, asking if they will send the new address AND phone number for the abandoned record. So invasive! If people want their whereabouts to be known by a religious organization, they would let them know. This stalking behavior is just creepy.

I get it. The Doctrine and Covenants speak pretty strongly about a bishop’s duty to know all their flock, so that’s why it happens.

A few years ago, I went out with our bishopric and visited several people who were on our records but didn’t want anything to do with us. We showed up letting them know they were on our records, and we had to periodically check in on them, but they were free to have their names removed from the rolls if they wished.

2-3 different outraged angry people got huffy and said they’d do that immediately. None of them did.

I mean, I get it. I hate spam and unsolicited email. I’m glad there’s an unsubscribe button and a way to indicate things are spam. But when I join a group and then leave a group, I don’t mind a little effort to jump through some hoops to get me off the group’s list. In matters of eternal salvation, I’d be willing to do a lot of effort.

And RebeccaJ, I understand staying on the rolls to preserve peace in the family.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I get it. The Doctrine and Covenants speak pretty strongly about a bishop’s duty to know all their flock, so that’s why it happens.

I mean, I get it. I hate spam and unsolicited email. I’m glad there’s an unsubscribe button and a way to indicate things are spam. But when I join a group and then leave a group, I don’t mind a little effort to jump through some hoops to get me off the group’s list. In matters of eternal salvation, I’d be willing to do a lot of effort.

And RebeccaJ, I understand staying on the rolls to preserve peace in the family.

At the time I left there was no internet, no such thing as name removal and if there were, no way to know how to do it. Part of what I discovered c.2000 was that name removal was a new thing. There were whole websites dedicated to how to, because every bishop was different and some would refuse to do the name removal. So instructions on sending certified letters with threats about using lawyers and just yuck. Why would I put myself through those hoops? I just freaking want to be left alone!

Someone sued Mormon Inc. to get their name off the rolls, don’t know when exactly, but at least 20 years ago. Prior to that it was impossible to have your name removed. Such requests were refused.

I have had no interest in jumping through the hoops of an organization that I’ve had nothing to do with for literally, decades. If they had an unsubscribe page on the internet, that would be an amazing thing.

I really don’t give a rip about Mormon scripture that instructs to bother people that want to be left alone. I don’t know who the bishop is. Contacting the ward to get my name removed sounds about as fun as a root canal. It’s an organization doing its bureaucratic thing that has nothing to do with me. That’s why I don’t do it.

But like I said. I don’t want some Mormon relative, of whom I have hundreds, doing genealogy and linking me up as Mormon. I’ve been in estate planning mode so name removal is now just part of that, really. Protecting my legacy as it were.

It isn’t so much keeping the peace, more like emotional protection of both me and my parents. . Mormons have been cruel. Tell me the most amazingly crappy stuff.

If I had some confidence that there was privacy protection, from Mormon relatives prying eyes, I’d be somewhat relieved. But I know Mormons. They like to pry and get into other people’s business.

My mom is already convinced that we won’t be together in the afterlife. Her seeing my name removal would hurt her emotionally, not me

It already ticks me off that they had an old, grieving, widow worrying over made up nonsense. I’m not going to use that same organization’s machinations to hurt her more.

So yeah, those are my reasons.

 

[Lemuel]

When I served in bishoprics, we simply had a “DO NOT CONTACT” list of members who asked not to be contacted–EVER. We honored those requests. However, one of my bishops felt a need to reach out to the DNC members and ask them if they wanted to have their names removed from the church records and would give them the instructions on how to do it. I do recall back in the 80’s that it was very difficult to get your name removed. If the letter wasn’t certified or notarized or signed with the exact name that matched the records, they would not remove it.

I like the little couplet that I heard after joining the Catholic church:

True church: hard to join, easy to leave.
False church: easy to join, hard to leave.

 

[Lemuel]

shrug . When someone comes to an LDS board and asks about Catholicism, we tend to direct them to a Catholic.

So would you consider me, a Catholic, to be unqualified to answer questions about Mormonism?

 

[RebeccaJ]

There were hundreds of stories of people having to fight to get their name removed. That’s how it was.

Now Mormons act like it’s their idea and why not just do it.

It’s an emotionally abusive organization that I want no contact with. Name removal is helping them out with their abuses. DNC is hit and miss. Heck my daughter has never been baptized and they bothered her like she was a member. Twice I let the unannounced callers know that she is not a member, so they don’t need to check up on her. I still get letters to her addressed to “sister”. And she has been out on her own for years.

 

[Lemuel]

I think it comes from a higher authority than the bishop. The bishop I mentioned felt it was his duty to purge the records of people who were just dead wood. I think his stake president told him that it wasn’t his call to make. I also think that there is something about numbers that is sacred. The Mormon church boasts of something near 17 million members, when the reality is that there is closer to 5 million who are active or consider themselves to be Mormons. New growth is at a 40-year low and the bleeding hasn’t stopped. The pile of dirt that has previously been swept under the carpet can no longer be hidden.