Anyone else think the liberalization of the Tridentine Mass is not coming?

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dessert said:
I totally agree with you, it is becoming a who is for or who is against but it has been liberated allready. Our city has cluster parishs now 5 plus one priest who does the nursing home so 6 priests. The diocese said now take care of each other,
so there may be enough people who want to make a church a TLM. Before the diocese has been doing head counts at the masses , we knew when the KofC were walking around with their clipboards. So it is not really a ban just a well as long as the people want one but put them all together in one church which the others who want to keep the NO also want all of them in their own church. Eventually it will die out as if their is not enough to sustain it, so it will ban itself out.

Meanwhile if we get a TLM in a church they also like some of the NO so they will complain that they don’t for example have an organist. They can’t have everything their own way. Or they complain too many word and communion, not enough priests, etc. they want missals but they cost money so they will more than likely buy their own etc.

So our bishop has not banned the TLM that I know of but will make the people get it together on their own and they will I believe. I sort of see it as becoming an independent Catholic sort of thing, get some one with mone buy the building make their own rules claim they are original and I know of one , not here but an hour away that are doin just that. They bought the school next door and will be on their way. Isn’t his a sort of succeeding away from the church? Dessert
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Either way, I would expect those who ask for a TLM to be prepared to do much of the work. Getting a priest to say it, getting the altar ready, missal, altar server garments, etc. I doubt if the state of the Church in some diocese is such that all the bishop has to do is snap his fingers and they get a Mass. A lot of people will be disappointed if they think that, M.P. or not.
 
dessert said:
I totally agree with you, it is becoming a who is for or who is against but it has been liberated allready. Our city has cluster parishs now 5 plus one priest who does the nursing home so 6 priests. The diocese said now take care of each other,
so there may be enough people who want to make a church a TLM. Before the diocese has been doing head counts at the masses , we knew when the KofC were walking around with their clipboards. So it is not really a ban just a well as long as the people want one but put them all together in one church which the others who want to keep the NO also want all of them in their own church. Eventually it will die out as if their is not enough to sustain it, so it will ban itself out.

Meanwhile if we get a TLM in a church they also like some of the NO so they will complain that they don’t for example have an organist. They can’t have everything their own way. Or they complain too many word and communion, not enough priests, etc. they want missals but they cost money so they will more than likely buy their own etc.

So our bishop has not banned the TLM that I know of but will make the people get it together on their own and they will I believe. I sort of see it as becoming an independent Catholic sort of thing, get some one with mone buy the building make their own rules claim they are original and I know of one , not here but an hour away that are doin just that. They bought the school next door and will be on their way. Isn’t his a sort of succeeding away from the church? Dessert
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That would be ceceding from the church IMO.
 
Spirithound said:
But the current indult gives bishops the say over whether the Tridentine Rite may be celebrated in their diocese. The point of the Motu Proprio is to basically eliminate the bishops’ chance to refuse… so i’m not sure what you mean by this.
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The local RC bishop has stated that if the motu does pass he is still going to prohibit priests from saying the 1962 Missal… tridentine mass. So much for obeying your boss.
 
Yes, I do not think that the universal indult will ever be issued. I’ve started to have that sinking feeling for some time now. Maybe the Holy Father believes that he can get some conservative momentum shift on the liturgy by keeping the debate going but without having to actually do anything. Perhaps he has been threatened or blackmailed, who knows.

Even the new English translation of the Novus Ordo Mass seems to be going nowhere. It has been waiting on the recognitio from the Vatican for about a year now after having been approved by the USCCB last summer. In the meantime, we have had to endure the awful 1970 translations for one more year now.

My point is other than the non-extension of the indult for purification of sacred vessels by EMHC’s there has been absolutely no conservative liturgical directives on either the TLM or NO side for the past two years. (The ruling on “pro multis” was tied to the new translations and not implemented immediately.) And that is two years in the pontificate of a pope who was elected at age 78 and is now 80. How many good years can he have left to implement his ideas if he indeed he wants to make changes?

Now don’t get me wrong. I love our Holy Father and pray for him daily. I think he is a brilliant man and we are fortunate to have him as the leader of our Church. But I just don’ t anticipate much happening on the liturgical front except maybe His Holiness trying to lead by example. I try not to get disappointed because I shudder when I think who could have been the alternatives. Anybody want to try and imagine a Pope Roger I?
 
The local RC bishop has stated that if the motu does pass he is still going to prohibit priests from saying the 1962 Missal… tridentine mass. So much for obeying your boss.
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That’s a rather broad statement, suggesting rebellion on the part of the bishop. As I read it in the preliminary articles on the Motu Proprio, there are going to be stipulations; i.e., a mention of at least 30 people in a given parish who want the TLM. That in my parish is going to be impossible, for at this time, only one person prefers it.

Remember, folks, that there is a shortage of clergy pretty much over all the US and maybe even globally. Where does a bishop find an extra priest to celebrate this liturgy beyond the difficulty of finding enough priests to serve the regular Sunday liturgies?

Many priests are elderly and are dying, leaving some parishes without a pastor. In parishes that do have a pastor, there are not usually two, and the ONE pastor must celebrate three liturgies, normally. I doubt he can celebrate a fourth, just to satisfy (if 30 can be found) those who want the TLM.

No, I do not believe it will be implemented solely due to these types of problems. The bishops are more aware of these and will still have a final determination to make for the common good. It does not make his decision “disobedience.”
 
Joysong said:
That’s a rather broad statement, suggesting rebellion on the part of the bishop. As I read it in the preliminary articles on the Motu Proprio, there are going to be stipulations; i.e., a mention of at least 30 people in a given parish who want the TLM. That in my parish is going to be impossible, for at this time, only one person prefers it.

Remember, folks, that there is a shortage of clergy pretty much over all the US and maybe even globally. Where does a bishop find an extra priest to celebrate this liturgy beyond the difficulty of finding enough priests to serve the regular Sunday liturgies?

Many priests are elderly and are dying, leaving some parishes without a pastor. In parishes that do have a pastor, there are not usually two, and the ONE pastor must celebrate three liturgies, normally. I doubt he can celebrate a fourth, just to satisfy (if 30 can be found) those who want the TLM.

No, I do not believe it will be implemented solely due to these types of problems. The bishops are more aware of these and will still have a final determination to make for the common good. It does not make his decision “disobedience.”
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The FSSP does not have a shortage of Priest. In fact they have exactly the opposite problem. They do not have enough room for the vocations they have. Maybe this is a sign, a reason for the shortage. Remember “By your fruits they shall know you”. We continue to see the fruits of the past 40 years today and the scandals and shortages are only part.
 
BAIRBRE said:
what is the difference between pauline and tridentine…
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“Pauline” is the Rite that Pope Paul allowed to use in 1970.

“Tridentine,” well, there is no such thing. The Council of Trent did not create any new rite; in fact, it prohibited any new rites. Pope Pius V only guaranteed the Latin Mass, which had existed before Trent, in perpetuity.

If they want to refer to the Traditional Latin Mass as Tridentine, then they also must consider the Byzantine Rites as Tridentine because they were all addressed in the period during and after Trent.
 
mgrobertson79 said:
The FSSP does not have a shortage of Priest. In fact they have exactly the opposite problem. They do not have enough room for the vocations they have. Maybe this is a sign, a reason for the shortage. Remember “By your fruits they shall know you”. We continue to see the fruits of the past 40 years today and the scandals and shortages are only part.
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The bad thing about those “fruits” -----is that they have had 40 yrs to influence the minds of the several generations. The Pope will not only have to contend with clergy --but also with the laity that they have influenced.
 
rien said:
Just a hunch. The delays now are almost a joke. I think the Vatican realizes if they tried this they would meet such opposition from western Bishops it would make Humane Vitae look like nothing. The bishop here has made it clear there will be no Trientine Masses in his diocese.

IMO it comes down to the Vatican wanting to continue to pretend it has control over the church. If they liberalize the Tridentine Mass availability and most bishops refuse it would basically confirm what some of us suspect.

I don’t think it is going to happen.

Just like the Vatican backed down over communion to those who support abortion, I think it is a lost cause now. And I am not even a traditionalist.
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I, for one, hope it is true. Hearing the hateful talk of some extreeme traditionalist has turned me completely against the TLM. I recognize it is a valid Mass.
 
Walking_Home said:
Could be–a bishop like that–would find a way to eliminate any priest who is willing to offer the TLM.
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That thought hadn’t even crossed my mind…
But would any bishop really be that hateful of the TLM to worsen the priest shortage in his diocese? :ehh: :confused:
 
Spirithound said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home
Could be–a bishop like that–would find a way to eliminate any priest who is willing to offer the TLM.

That thought hadn’t even crossed my mind…
But would any bishop really be that hateful of the TLM to worsen the priest shortage in his diocese? :ehh: :confused:
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It would seem that a bishop who has made up his mind to not allow the TLM anywhere in his diocese—no matter what the Pope says—will find any way possible to keep the TLM suppressed and justify his actions thru some sort of explanation.

You see–it will come down to a battle of wills. The Church if the Pope does issue the MP----vs----a bishop who does not want to relinquish his power to keep the TLM suppressed.
 
It would seem that if enough of the laity wen’t directly over a Bishop’s head and complained that their Bishop won’t allow the TLM, even though the Priest and the laity wan’t it, the Bishop would have to allow it then. Not only would the Pope have ordered it, but then so would’ve an Archbishop or Cardinal. The Bishop would have to allow it then. Besides what if a Priest just went against his Bishop’s will and did it anyway. How could the Bishop fire him for something the Pope said was okay. It seems like the Priest and the laity would appeal and easily win. Is any of this possible, or am I just way off base here? I really hope the MP comes out soon, as I very much want to go to a TLM, and there aren’t any close to me. :mad:
 
SemperFidelis said:
It would seem that if enough of the laity wen’t directly over a Bishop’s head and complained that their Bishop won’t allow the TLM, even though the Priest and the laity wan’t it, the Bishop would have to allow it then. Not only would the Pope have ordered it, but then so would’ve an Archbishop or Cardinal. The Bishop would have to allow it then. Besides what if a Priest just went against his Bishop’s will and did it anyway. How could the Bishop fire him for something the Pope said was okay. It seems like the Priest and the laity would appeal and easily win. Is any of this possible, or am I just way off base here? I really hope the MP comes out soon, as I very much want to go to a TLM, and there aren’t any close to me. :mad:
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That would seem like a viable solutions—but will the Vatican be up to the task of supporting the laity and priests who do want the Mass in a diocese where the bishop does not. We will not know–until the situation comes up.
 
Anybody forget the “thirty” criteria for celebrating the TLM? Anybody take a census in their parish?

What is clear to me is that there aren’t even 30 people on this entire forum of 49,500 members who can vie for this preference as compared to the other members who post here. 🤷
 
SemperFidelis said:
It would seem that if enough of the laity wen’t directly over a Bishop’s head and complained that their Bishop won’t allow the TLM, even though the Priest and the laity wan’t it, the Bishop would have to allow it then. Not only would the Pope have ordered it, but then so would’ve an Archbishop or Cardinal. The Bishop would have to allow it then. Besides what if a Priest just went against his Bishop’s will and did it anyway. How could the Bishop fire him for something the Pope said was okay. It seems like the Priest and the laity would appeal and easily win. Is any of this possible, or am I just way off base here? I really hope the MP comes out soon, as I very much want to go to a TLM, and there aren’t any close to me. :mad:
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This is exactlly what is going on here in our city and I’m sure there is more than 30 people that want it maybe 100+ and this priest wants it to be more TLM but not so much Latin just very traditional you know cantors and such and you know why? Because he can’t sing a note except for the chant. My priest at my parish I attend now can sing beuatifully and will protest, we like the sing song versiions of the Psalm.
You know if you want to be so traditional why don’t you go back to baking a cake from scratch, it is more healthy of course and tastes like the real thing. Isn’t this just a relative thing because if you were true to yourself you would never eat at a Mickey D’s again. I’m not trying to be rude just honest and asking you to be honest with yourself.
I don’t think a bishop could really fire the priest but let us be realistic about this.
  1. It takes money to manage a church building
  2. If there are 3 RCC that follow the guidelines but one TlM and the children attend the 3 other schools then the children are going to be exposed to two different rituals of mass
  3. Hence the children are going to be confused
  4. It will be like a divorce of the church families when we are not united in the ritual of the liturgy
  5. It took a while to get everyone doctrinated into the english do you think that we will all go back to the Latin?
  6. Think again
  7. The other churches or Rome or whoever is responsible for the financing will have to foot the bill for much of the expenses.
  8. I think we will end up with dysfunctional children as is what happens in divorce and dysfunctional families and people that will think that anything goes.
  9. We did without missals in the beginning I never had them we don’t need them now.
  10. Yes where are we going to get priests, but what I see now are the deacons are being trained to say mass here quite frequently, the hosts are preconcecrated and the priests are becoming more admministrative. This could be true of the TLM too.
  11. So to what does it all avail?
dessert
 
Joysong said:
Anybody forget the “thirty” criteria for celebrating the TLM? Anybody take a census in their parish?

What is clear to me is that there aren’t even 30 people on this entire forum of 49,500 members who can vie for this preference as compared to the other members who post here. 🤷
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forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=154623

Did you ever read this? If no one was really interested in the TLM do you think that the Vatican would even be spending time talking about the TLM? I think the good-Cardinal here even speaks about how there is so much interest for it. This argument is completely ridiculous as I have seen many on here wish they could have the Mass in Latin. In fact I even remember a poll that had over thirty vote in favor of the TLM over the NO, and this poll was asking should the NO be abolished in favor of the TLM! Most extreme Traditionalists however, see that the NO does have its merits in bringing in people who want Mass in English, and wouldn’t want the NO abolished completely. Needless to say I there is plently of want for the TLM on this board.
 
The problem is not that there are people HERE who desire the TLM, but the practical manner of implementing it in each individual parish where the polled ratio is going to be much more in line of 1%, if that many.
In fact I even remember a poll that had over thirty vote in favor of the TLM over the NO, and this poll was asking should the NO be abolished in favor of the TLM!
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Hm, even if the poll were 50 or greater – when you divide that by 49,500 potential members who might have voted, the ratio is .0001%. Most N.O. worshippers wouldn’t even enter a poll of that nature, and don’t even read this section of the forum.

So your proof is?
 
dessert said:
This is exactlly what is going on here in our city and I’m sure there is more than 30 people that want it maybe 100+ and this priest wants it to be more TLM but not so much Latin just very traditional you know cantors and such and you know why? Because he can’t sing a note except for the chant. My priest at my parish I attend now can sing beuatifully and will protest, we like the sing song versiions of the Psalm.
You know if you want to be so traditional why don’t you go back to baking a cake from scratch, it is more healthy of course and tastes like the real thing. Isn’t this just a relative thing because if you were true to yourself you would never eat at a Mickey D’s again. I’m not trying to be rude just honest and asking you to be honest with yourself.
I don’t think a bishop could really fire the priest but let us be realistic about this.
  1. It takes money to manage a church building
  2. If there are 3 RCC that follow the guidelines but one TlM and the children attend the 3 other schools then the children are going to be exposed to two different rituals of mass
  3. Hence the children are going to be confused
  4. It will be like a divorce of the church families when we are not united in the ritual of the liturgy
  5. It took a while to get everyone doctrinated into the english do you think that we will all go back to the Latin?
  6. Think again
  7. The other churches or Rome or whoever is responsible for the financing will have to foot the bill for much of the expenses.
  8. I think we will end up with dysfunctional children as is what happens in divorce and dysfunctional families and people that will think that anything goes.
  9. We did without missals in the beginning I never had them we don’t need them now.
  10. Yes where are we going to get priests, but what I see now are the deacons are being trained to say mass here quite frequently, the hosts are preconcecrated and the priests are becoming more admministrative. This could be true of the TLM too.
  11. So to what does it all avail?
dessert
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It’s comments like this that send people to the Orthodox faith. I am considering starting RCIA classes in the fall. I can tell you that if there was no Latin Mass, I would’ve already been talking to an Orthodox Priest. I am sorry that my want for a Latin Mass has completely offended you to the point where you feel the need to berate my opinion. You know people join a Church because they see something in the Church that they like. If they want a Latin Mass (Traditional Liturgy in general) and don’t see it, they will look elsewhere. If there was no TLM, then you would have even more possible converts converting to Orthodoxy than you already have. You ever wonder why the Orthodox Church is growing? Because some people are tired of Rome abolishing traditions that date back 2000 years. At least the Orthodox Church hasn’t done that. You’re going to get a lot of converts to Catholicism with posts like this.
 
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