Anyone else think the liberalization of the Tridentine Mass is not coming?

[SemperFidelis]

The problem is not that there are people HERE who desire the TLM, but the practical manner of implementing it in each individual parish where the polled ratio is going to be much more in line of 1%, if that many.

Hm, even if the poll were 50 or greater – when you divide that by 49,500 potential members who might have voted, the ratio is .0001%. Most N.O. worshippers wouldn’t even enter a poll of that nature, and don’t even read this section of the forum.

So your proof is?

How many of that 49,500 have even commented on whether they prefer the TLM or NO? Have you asked them all? Most of those members just read threads and don’t post at all or post very little.

 

[dessert]

It’s comments like this that send people to the Orthodox faith. I am considering starting RCIA classes in the fall. I can tell you that if there was no Latin Mass, I would’ve already been talking to an Orthodox Priest. I am sorry that my want for a Latin Mass has completely offended you to the point where you feel the need to berate my opinion. You know people join a Church because they see something in the Church that they like. If they want a Latin Mass (Traditional Liturgy in general) and don’t see it, they will look elsewhere. If there was no TLM, then you would have even more possible converts converting to Orthodoxy than you already have. You ever wonder why the Orthodox Church is growing? Because some people are tired of Rome abolishing traditions that date back 2000 years. At least the Orthodox Church hasn’t done that. You’re going to get a lot of converts to Catholicism with posts like this.

I’m sorry didn’t mean to offend you, thought maybe i could just be honest as to the way I feel.
I hope you do get peace in your TLM.
I was just thinking of the children.

Dessert

PSS sorry it took so long to get back I’m reading other stuff.

 

[BobP123]

Hm, even if the poll were 50 or greater – when you divide that by 49,500 potential members who might have voted, the ratio is .0001%. Most N.O. worshippers wouldn’t even enter a poll of that nature, and don’t even read this section of the forum.

But your population is only amongst the English-speaking crowd and isn’t really all that meaningful.

How about a fair ballot and ask ALL Catholics ALL over the world, nominal or othewise, churchgoers and otherwise, whether they prefer the TLM, the ICEL/English NO, the Spanish NO, the Polish NO, etc. Then take the same survey five years from now. The numbers may disappoint those that enjoy the English NO so much, but these are the numbers and trends Rome (and perhaps your local bishop) looks at.

 

[dessert]

The problem is not that there are people HERE who desire the TLM, but the practical manner of implementing it in each individual parish where the polled ratio is going to be much more in line of 1%, if that many.

Hm, even if the poll were 50 or greater – when you divide that by 49,500 potential members who might have voted, the ratio is .0001%. Most N.O. worshippers wouldn’t even enter a poll of that nature, and don’t even read this section of the forum.

So your proof is?

We have about 200 people intersested in a more traditional mass not neccarilly TLM out of about 3000 Catholics. what percent?
What constitutes the T

1. Not long entrence hymn and exit maybe two verses
2. Homily short more like scripture read
3. A one person sing the cantor songs or just read the Psalms no singing
4. Short communion hymsn or none
5. No we believe or just resonse or read shorter creed or just the I do to the priest
6. The priest coming out of the back or down the front is kind of a debate but makes more sense to come out of the back
7. Missals is just an expense thing but more than not
8. In other words a more shorter version and I think the Orthodox is longer mass.
   It would be nice to hear from some of the other posters how their TLM mass is done?
   Dessert

 

[Joysong]

Hello again, Semper Fi,

The fact that the 49,400 didn’t vote tells me they aren’t interested and/or perfectly satisfied with the status quo. The reality is that individual parishes just don’t have enough interested people to warrant a separate private liturgy just for the TLM-ers.

It’s not so much of a problem with a latin mass, for you may have seen that the Novus Ordo may be celebrated in latin, and that is a more likely scenario than a TLM. I think there needs to be a reality-check for those who put their entire faith in the Motu Proprio as if that is going to change everything. May you prepare your hearts for the likelihood that it may not be feasible.

Peace to you,

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread has gone off topic. Please start new threads to discuss side issues or return to the original topic. Thank you.

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrobertson79
The FSSP does not have a shortage of Priest. In fact they have exactly the opposite problem. They do not have enough room for the vocations they have. Maybe this is a sign, a reason for the shortage. Remember “By your fruits they shall know you”. We continue to see the fruits of the past 40 years today and the scandals and shortages are only part.

The bad thing about those “fruits” -----is that they have had 40 yrs to influence the minds of the several generations. The Pope will not only have to contend with clergy --but also with the laity that they have influenced./QUOTE]

Quote=Walking_Home
It would seem that a bishop who has made up his mind to not allow the TLM anywhere in his diocese—no matter what the Pope says—will find any way possible to keep the TLM suppressed and justify his actions thru some sort of explanation.​

Just to add to the above—the laity that have been influence —will also find any type and/or form of explanation—to excuse the suppression of the TLM

 

[dessert]

I have to admit my No mass I attend is long, but I love it.
Yes the priest has to wait some for the choir often, and we had a sub and he is not used to this at all.
But they learn to just go sit in their chair and we have to wait for him sfterall this is just respect.
Sometimes the CD doesn’t get the cue and sings one to many verses and it does seem like the mass is all singing but it is only an hour out of the week and that is what peoople want.
I go to the daily twice a week and it is only 25 min max, but we don’t sing and the attendance is siltch except for the older people, so getting people to mass on sunday is important is it not?
Dessert

 

[bear06]

This has been rattling around in my head for awhile as the “big wait” continues so I’ll just let you all in on it. I’m afraid if the Vatican released the MP that it would lead to the formal excommunication of the priests and laity attend the SSPX chapels. They could no longer claim that they had to go to the SSPX chapels to attend a TLM. I think it would force the Vatican to take the same action as Bishop Bruskewitz. He allowed the TLM and then he ended up excommunicating those who still chose to attend the illicit Mass at the chapels.

I’m sure many of you would believe that the excommunications would be lifted with the MP. I don’t think that this is the plan since the excommunications weren’t based on the SSPX doing the TLM in the first place. I also don’t think that the SSPX would really make a move towards Rome when the MP was released. As always, they would wait for Rome to reunify with them. :hypno: I think the Pope knows this which is probably why the hesitation or outright rejection (whatever is actually happening).

Just a thought.

 

[palmas85]

That thought hadn’t even crossed my mind…
But would any bishop really be that hateful of the TLM to worsen the priest shortage in his diocese? :ehh:

There are Bishops who deny the faithful the option of having a Traditional Mass in their Diocese. There are Bishops who allow a Traditional Mass but deny the faithful a permanent place for it or require that it be celebrated at odd and inopportune times and/or locations, in some places changing the location weekly, there are Bishops who believe that the Traditional Mass should only be attended by those who were adults and practicing Catholics as adults prior to the implementation of the Vatican II reforms, roughly around 1965 or so. There are Bishops who have assigned Priests to celebrate the Traditional Mass for indult communities who either had no knowledge if it or who didn’t want the assignment.

[Edited by Moderator] The reason is simple very, very simple.

POWER AND AUTHORITY

As it stands now, Bishops are pretty free to run their dioceses in just about any fashion they wish with little meaningful oversight from Rome. Some of them deeply resent any interference at all in these affairs from Rome and see it as being contrary to the SPIRIT and reforms of Vatican II and the collegiality that was part of those reforms. These Bishops are the very ones who would violently oppose such a thing.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

Hello again, Semper Fi,

The fact that the 49,400 didn’t vote tells me they aren’t interested and/or perfectly satisfied with the status quo. The reality is that individual parishes just don’t have enough interested people to warrant a separate private liturgy just for the TLM-ers.

I didn’t vote and I prefer the Traditional Latin Mass. I didn’t know the poll existed. I’ve been putting in a lot of OT at work. I haven’t had time to come here.

This proves your assumption is incorrect.

It’s not so much of a problem with a latin mass, for you may have seen that the Novus Ordo may be celebrated in latin, and that is a more likely scenario than a TLM. I think there needs to be a reality-check for those who put their entire faith in the Motu Proprio as if that is going to change everything. May you prepare your hearts for the likelihood that it may not be feasible.

Peace to you,

Here in the Archdiocese of Chicago we have **7 **Indult Traditional Latin Masses on Sunday but only 1 Latin Novus Ordo. There’s even less demand for a Latin Novus Ordo than there is for the Traditional Latin Mass according to your standards.

Besides, isn’t the problem with the Traditional Latin Mass the fact that it’s in Latin? I thought we had to do away with a dead language like Latin and have liturgies in a language that’s relevant to the people?

I’ve read some of your other posts in this thread and I get the impression you think the motu proprio will force every parish to have a Latin Mass. All it will do is free a parish to have the Traditional Latin Mass if it wants one. It won’t force any parish to have the Traditional Latin Mass if it doesn’t want it.

I think there will be a very slight increase in Traditional Latin Masses once the motu proprio is finally released. There is only one parish in the Archdiocese of Chicago that will have a Traditional Latin Mass once the motu proprio is released. This parish had one but was told to stop by the chancery office, even though Cardinal George allows the Traditional Latin Mass.

What the motu proprio will do is put an end to Traditional Latin Mass attendees being treated as second class citizens. It will show that the Traditional Latin Mass is on equal terms with the Novus Ordo.

This is what those who falsely claim that Vatican II started a “new church” fear the most.

 

[bkovacs]

If it is ever released!!. I doubt it will be released because of to much pressure from liberal and modernist clergy. And if it is, it will most likely come with some sort of prohibition clause for dioceses who can refuse to allow it. If that happens I encourage everyone here to start looking East!!.

I didn’t vote and I prefer the Traditional Latin Mass. I didn’t know the poll existed. I’ve been putting in a lot of OT at work. I haven’t had time to come here.

This proves your assumption is incorrect.

Here in the Archdiocese of Chicago we have **7 **Indult Traditional Latin Masses on Sunday but only 1 Latin Novus Ordo. There’s even less demand for a Latin Novus Ordo than there is for the Traditional Latin Mass according to your standards.

Besides, isn’t the problem with the Traditional Latin Mass the fact that it’s in Latin? I thought we had to do away with a dead language like Latin and have liturgies in a language that’s relevant to the people?

I’ve read some of your other posts in this thread and I get the impression you think the motu proprio will force every parish to have a Latin Mass. All it will do is free a parish to have the Traditional Latin Mass if it wants one. It won’t force any parish to have the Traditional Latin Mass if it doesn’t want it.

I think there will be a very slight increase in Traditional Latin Masses once the motu proprio is finally released. There is only one parish in the Archdiocese of Chicago that will have a Traditional Latin Mass once the motu proprio is released. This parish had one but was told to stop by the chancery office, even though Cardinal George allows the Traditional Latin Mass.

What the motu proprio will do is put an end to Traditional Latin Mass attendees being treated as second class citizens. It will show that the Traditional Latin Mass is on equal terms with the Novus Ordo.

This is what those who falsely claim that Vatican II started a “new church” fear the most.

 

[FrankoMD]

I do hope that the liberalization of the TLM will come. I am a convert to Catholicism from Judaism. I have been a Catholic now for nearly 30 years. During that time I have painfully watched the Protestantification of the “Roman” rite. I now attend a Maronite Catholic church. If we must look east, I pray we look east within the Catholic Church rather than to the Orthodox Church.

 

[Chris_McAvoy]

The tridentine liturgy will come back. This is the will of the younger people it can not be fought. The language however may become a better english translation eventually and a retaining of the epiklesis. Latin will always remain in use in far more in liurgies than it is today, but it will no longer dominate as it did in the past. The traditions we all associate with the Tridentine for the most part represent the future of the Latin Church. Ad Orientem for example is the only legitimate method of celebration.

If anything the Latin liturgy of the future will be from a time even earlier than trent…not to some made up fantasy “versus populum” the way it happened in Vatican II. But legitimate liturgy of the 1st millenium, such as the Mozarabic liturgy of San Isidoro y Leandro of Sevilla, Espana. A liturgy such as that celebrated by Pope Gelasius in 460 A.D.

The Orthodox Church does have a purity of tradition which the Latin Church has lacked for some centuries. This is not a bad thing. This is nothing to be afraid of.

“Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are ‘Rock,’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it.”
This passage was ment to include the entire Apostolic Church, not only the Latin/western church. The gates of hell have prevailed in some parts of the Latin Church. They have not prevailed in the East. See this as the Churches salvation and hope, not as a foriegn tradition to fear.

The only possible disadvantage the Orthodox could in theory lack is communion with the Pope.

HOWEVER the authority of the Pope today is such that it wouldnt be very relevant for them to be under him at this time…

Patriarch Alexei of Moscow has far more authority over his Bishops than does Pope Benedict XVI to my dismay. A miracle must occur to change this and give the Pope the will to excommunicate bishops and heretics again. Only than can the Orthodox come back to him.

Glory to Jesus Chirst Forever.

 

[Frank_Fenn]

because in reality it is not necessary…there already is a valid Mass

The TLM is valid as well.

 

[bkovacs]

I do hope that the liberalization of the TLM will come. I am a convert to Catholicism from Judaism. I have been a Catholic now for nearly 30 years. During that time I have painfully watched the Protestantification of the “Roman” rite. I now attend a Maronite Catholic church. If we must look east, I pray we look east within the Catholic Church rather than to the Orthodox Church.

You also need to understand this as well. In the Eastern Catholic Church there is a sort of Vatican 2 taking place with their form of the Divine Liturgy. To cater to feminists(inclusive language), and liberals. This may very well have the same effect that Rome has suffered from changing their Mass from the TLM back in the sixties to a more feminist(inclusive language) and liberal form of the Mass (free for all). The Orthodox tried something similar in the past from what I have read, but it thankfully failed. The Orthodox have kept the Divine Liturgy in it’s more traditional and conservative form since then. Hence an unchanging tradition. They no longer make changes to cater to the current times, and are rebuked if a topic of changing the liturgy is brought up.

Here is a forum for the new proposed Divine Liturgy for Eastern Catholics, read the reaction. So are ok, but some have threaten to leave the church all together if it is implemented. Similar to what we saw with Vatican 2.
byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/postlist/Board/15/page/1

Check out the post Farewell to my Brethren
byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/229977/page/1#Post229977

 

[mgrobertson79]

because in reality it is not necessary…there already is a valid Mass

Actually we have multiple(meaning more than one) valid forms of Mass. The 1962 books were NEVER suppressed when the Pauline form of Mass was promulgated. If you know anything at all about the Liturgy you know that in the past even when a small change was made, the previous form was suppressed completely.

 

[thecoach]

In reality it is necessary, if we want to preserve the ancient treasures of the Mass.

if you really want to preserve the ancient treasure, start meeting in homes as it was first done, and say it in aramaic. On this Pentecost, remember the first sign of the decent of the Holy Spirit was for the crowd to hear the Apostles, “each in his own language”.

 

[paramedicgirl]

if you really want to preserve the ancient treasure, start meeting in homes as it was first done, and say it in aramaic. On this Pentecost, remember the first sign of the decent of the Holy Spirit was for the crowd to hear the Apostles, “each in his own language”.

We’re talking about the Tridentine Mass here. The ancient treasure of the Church as it was recently called by a Cardinal in a news release about the Motu Proprio.

 

[mgrobertson79]

if you really want to preserve the ancient treasure, start meeting in homes as it was first done, and say it in aramaic. On this Pentecost, remember the first sign of the decent of the Holy Spirit was for the crowd to hear the Apostles, “each in his own language”.

For any of this you suggest to happen, the New Order must be suppressed and repudiated. I don’t see that happening.