Anyone else think the liberalization of the Tridentine Mass is not coming?

[BobP123]

if you really want to preserve the ancient treasure, start meeting in homes as it was first done, and say it in aramaic. On this Pentecost, remember the first sign of the decent of the Holy Spirit was for the crowd to hear the Apostles, “each in his own language”.

If we listen carefully, we do hear it in our language.

 

[Like]

Just a hunch. The delays now are almost a joke. I think the Vatican realizes if they tried this they would meet such opposition from western Bishops it would make Humane Vitae look like nothing. The bishop here has made it clear there will be no Trientine Masses in his diocese.

IMO it comes down to the Vatican wanting to continue to pretend it has control over the church. If they liberalize the Tridentine Mass availability and most bishops refuse it would basically confirm what some of us suspect.

I don’t think it is going to happen.

Just like the Vatican backed down over communion to those who support abortion, I think it is a lost cause now. And I am not even a traditionalist.

I think your wrong, it will come & I don’t think the Vatican has lost control of the Church. That’s a pretty broad statement you make there. Also, I didn’t see the Vatican back down on the communion thing, but some US bishops did. Do you really think B16 is afraid of the US Bishops?

 

[JW10631]

I hope it comes.

Here in Pittsburgh, we have a TLM at St. Boniface Church. My wife isn’t as keen on the Mass in Latin as I am - yet, but I’m working on it.

 

[thecoach]

We’re talking about the Tridentine Mass here. The ancient treasure of the Church as it was recently called by a Cardinal in a news release about the Motu Proprio.

I am fully aware of what is being discussed here. But lets talk about what is really being said. Latin is THE language. I have repudiated this.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I am fully aware of what is being discussed here. But lets talk about what is really being said. Latin is THE language. I have repudiated this.

Since Latin is a dead language and not evolving, the liturgy isn’t going to take on a new meaning with words that change their meaning over time. So, yes, Latin is THE language for the Mass, IMO.

 

[BobP123]

I am fully aware of what is being discussed here. But lets talk about what is really being said. Latin is THE language. I have repudiated this.

Ok, if you were to decide what one language we all could use as a basis for all vernaculars, what would you want it to be?

 

[bear06]

if you really want to preserve the ancient treasure, start meeting in homes as it was first done, and say it in aramaic. On this Pentecost, remember the first sign of the decent of the Holy Spirit was for the crowd to hear the Apostles, “each in his own language”.

…because this would be antiquarianism. What is approved by the Church is not. The TLM is approved by the Church. Latin is approved by the Church. In fact, the Church still calls Latin the language of the Church. Having one language would be beneficial to the Church with proper education in it. I think the Latin is great but I wish we were taught it as, let’s say, the “Greatest Generation” was taught - in public school even. The thought of going anywhere in the world and being able to understand the Mass is a wonderful thought. And, as anyone here will attest, I’m a Novus Ordo loving gal. The spread of the Novus Ordo in Latin would thrill me.

 

[thecoach]

Ok, if you were to decide what one language we all could use as a basis for all vernaculars, what would you want it to be?

again, not ONE language…why do you refuse to listen to Scripture, on Pentecost, all heard the Apostles IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE

 

[thecoach]

…because this would be antiquarianism. What is approved by the Church is not. The TLM is approved by the Church. Latin is approved by the Church. In fact, the Church still calls Latin the language of the Church. Having one language would be beneficial to the Church with proper education in it. I think the Latin is great but I wish we were taught it as, let’s say, the “Greatest Generation” was taught - in public school even. The thought of going anywhere in the world and being able to understand the Mass is a wonderful thought. And, as anyone here will attest, I’m a Novus Ordo loving gal. The spread of the Novus Ordo in Latin would thrill me.

nice, but why do you refuse to address the Pentecost even mentioned?

 

[thecoach]

…because this would be antiquarianism. What is approved by the Church is not. The TLM is approved by the Church. Latin is approved by the Church. In fact, the Church still calls Latin the language of the Church. Having one language would be beneficial to the Church with proper education in it. I think the Latin is great but I wish we were taught it as, let’s say, the “Greatest Generation” was taught - in public school even. The thought of going anywhere in the world and being able to understand the Mass is a wonderful thought. And, as anyone here will attest, I’m a Novus Ordo loving gal. The spread of the Novus Ordo in Latin would thrill me.

also, the Novus ORdo in the vernacular was approved by the Church, but in that case Church approval doesnt seem to be enough for you. Why the double standard?

 

[paramedicgirl]

also, the Novus ORdo in the vernacular was approved by the Church, but in that case Church approval doesnt seem to be enough for you. Why the double standard?

Certain parts of it were to be maintained in Latin. There is not one word of Latin, even during Advent or Lent, in my Church and many others, as well.

 

[BobP123]

also, the Novus ORdo in the vernacular was approved by the Church, but in that case Church approval doesnt seem to be enough for you. Why the double standard?

Because approval is not always a black and white issue. And what you call “approval” I might call “tolerance.” If they gave their 100% approval, why do you think the Church is making the ICEL rewrite it? Perhaps because someone signed a document he didn’t read maybe? Or maybe he was pressured to sign it? Or maybe now a few people woke up to see their errors? The ICEL translation, after all, was not EX CATHEDRA, never was, never will be, so I’d be careful about throwing these “approvals” around like they will never be rescinded.

 

[AlexV]

The Novus Ordo Missae in the vernacular is a matter of indult.

For those who like to throw around the word “normative” in describing liturgies (even though the word has zero official standing, and was only used for the first time in 1967 to describe a set of three Masses in January in the Sistine Chapel that were designed to show the Roman Curia and some invited guests what the liturgy consilium was doing), the vernacular isn’t normative, it’s by indult.

Latin is the language of the Roman Rite.

 

[bear06]

nice, but why do you refuse to address the Pentecost even mentioned?

Why do I have to? Again, that’s how it was. Doesn’t the Church say that Latin is the official language of the Church? Doesn’t it say that more should be used? The Church in her wisdom decided on an official language to promote unity. To bring up the fact that the apostles were granted the gift of tongues to preach to the nations really has little to do with the fact that Latin IS the official language of the Church.

also, the Novus ORdo in the vernacular was approved by the Church, but in that case Church approval doesnt seem to be enough for you. Why the double standard?

Prove I have a double standard. Again, Latin is the offical language of the Church. I love the official language of the Church and would like it seen as the Church specifies. Nowhere does the Church say that the entire Mass can’t be in Latin if the bishop so chooses. I fail to see where the double standard lies with me.

You might want to read Sacrosanctum Concilium to see what the Church actually called for in Vatican II as far as Latin. It actually called for the “mother tongue” to be used in suitable places, not all places.

Not only that, the pope’s recent writings have called for more use of Latin as a way to unify the Church.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Why do I have to? Again, that’s how it was. Doesn’t the Church say that Latin is the official language of the Church? Doesn’t it say that more should be used? The Church in her wisdom decided on an official language to promote unity. To bring up the fact that the apostles were granted the gift of tongues to preach to the nations really has little to do with the fact that Latin IS the official language of the Church.

Prove I have a double standard. Again, Latin is the offical language of the Church. I love the official language of the Church and would like it seen as the Church specifies. Nowhere does the Church say that the entire Mass can’t be in Latin if the bishop so chooses. I fail to see where the double standard lies with me.

You might want to read Sacrosanctum Concilium to see what the Church actually called for in Vatican II as far as Latin. It actually called for the “mother tongue” to be used in suitable places, not all places.

Not only that, the pope’s recent writings have called for more use of Latin as a way to unify the Church.

Here are the passages from Sacrosanctum Concilium that have to do with maintaining the use of Latin:

36.1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

54…steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

1. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

 

[Walking_Home]

The Novus Ordo Missae in the vernacular is a matter of indult.

For those who like to throw around the word “normative” in describing liturgies (even though the word has zero official standing, and was only used for the first time in 1967 to describe a set of three Masses in January in the Sistine Chapel that were designed to show the Roman Curia and some invited guests what the liturgy consilium was doing), the vernacular isn’t normative, it’s by indult.

Latin is the language of the Roman Rite.

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AlexV-----good to see you back.

 

[thecoach]

Because approval is not always a black and white issue. And what you call “approval” I might call “tolerance.” If they gave their 100% approval, why do you think the Church is making the ICEL rewrite it? Perhaps because someone signed a document he didn’t read maybe? Or maybe he was pressured to sign it? Or maybe now a few people woke up to see their errors? The ICEL translation, after all, was not EX CATHEDRA, never was, never will be, so I’d be careful about throwing these “approvals” around like they will never be rescinded.

actually you were the one to bring up Church approval, and it seems its only valid when you want it to be. I dont think it works that way my friend. You cant have it both ways.

 

[paramedicgirl]

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AlexV-----good to see you back.

Yes, I was thinking the same thing. Welcome back, Alex!

 

[thecoach]

Here are the passages from Sacrosanctum Concilium that have to do with maintaining the use of Latin:

36.1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

54…steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

1. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

I think many posters here would be better place in the SSPX. LAtin, Latin, let Scripture and V2 be hanged, is that it? The vernacular only makes sense, is only based in scripture( as I have posted and NOONE has addressed it, though I am not surprised). What is troublesome is that it seems the opinion is if it isnt in Latin, it isnt really as “good” or as “worthy”. In essense, it isnt as pleasing to God. So anything the Church puts forth that isnt agreed with is a Church mistake.

 

[AlexV]

Catholics are not bound solely by Scripture. We are bound by Scripture and Tradition.

Blessed John XXIII defined the role of Latin in the Roman Rite in his solemnly promulgated Motu Proprio “Veterum Sapientia” of 1962. Its prescriptions have never been rescinded.

Latin is the language of our Rite. The vernacular is an exception to the rule.