Anyones faith get shaken by terrible evils like the Connecticut shootings?

[jmcrae]

i really have a hard time with a God that allows such horrible evil and suffering like that.

i know, free will and all, but , well, idk.

it does make me question things.

“All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” - St. Paul.

It’s not God’s fault when people commit sin. Nor is it our role to tell God what He ought to have done for those children. What He did do for those children is, He welcomed them into Heaven, and they are at peace in the arms of Mary and Jesus. That’s all we can know for sure.

 

[cheezey]

He welcomed them into Heaven, and they are at peace in the arms of Mary and Jesus. That’s all we can know for sure.

Amen to that. My first thought in dealing with this. At least they are there and may our prayers go to the families with that supreme comfort.

 

[andyklein]

Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create the darkness, I make the well-being and create woe; I, the Lord, do all these things.” God permits evil for the sake of a greater good.

So, good cannot exist without evil. I am inferring that evil occurs because man was granted the will to do evil, and God does not stop evil because only if we have the choice between being/doing good or evil can we choose to praise God through being/doing good.

 

[Christianus_Dei]

Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create the darkness, I make the well-being and create woe; I, the Lord, do all these things.” God permits evil for the sake of a greater good.

So, good cannot exist without evil. I am inferring that evil occurs because man was granted the will to do evil, and God does not stop evil because only if we have the choice between being/doing good or evil can we choose to praise God through being/doing good.

That is false, good can absolutely exist without evil. Vice versa, not so much. I believe what you are trying to say is that one cannot truly do good without the option of evil, otherwise it wouldn’t be a choice.

 

[andyklein]

That is false, good can absolutely exist without evil. Vice versa, not so much. I believe what you are trying to say is that one cannot truly do good without the option of evil, otherwise it wouldn’t be a choice.

Yes. That is what I meant. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I dont know if this is true however i was told that in teh usa you could walk down the street and see a person carrying a gun in there jacket. If this is true then it is very worrying.

Sound like you are talking about the second amendment to the USA constitution and concealed weapons. There is some variance in the gun laws depending on what state you are in. In most of the states there are some laws/permits that allow one to carry concealed weapons (I think Illinois is the only exception, though this may be changing soon). There is also variance in what falls under these laws. In my state a tazer is considered a fire arm but a stun gun isn’t. In some states having more than a certain amount of pepper spray would require such a permit.

Most of the people that I know that have guns are females that have them for reasons of protection. They would not expect to be the winner in a fight based on strength and they all have at least some type concern for being a victim from the experiences of people they know. For example, one friend has carried a concealed weapon ever since her sister was found murdered. I myself don’t own a gun, but I carry pepper spray and a disguised stun gun (I can’t carry a tazer in some of the places I frequent).

I’m not confident that getting rid of guns would end problems such the events that inspired this thread. There are other methods one could use to kill. Mant of the same technologies and tools that can be used to save a life can be used to end one.

 

[Bill_7154]

Not in the slightest bit. IMO the broadcasting of these things scares the public and gives crazy and angry people ideas and courage to do similar things. I wish on the news every day it was filled with heroic acts people did to benefit others. And that that those types of things would become contageous and repeated on a regular basis.

Peace,
Bill

 

[Bill_Martin]

Faith in God? Not at all.

Faith in human beings? Mine was never very good to begin with.

 

[cheezey]

Bill,

(off thread, but I like my location; thanks.

 

[Christianus_Dei]

Yes. That is what I meant. Thanks for clarifying.

You’re welcome.

 

[jesus4ever]

itullian:

I could almost cry with gratitude that someone is listening to me.

Blessings

Sound like you are talking about the second amendment to the USA constitution and concealed weapons. There is some variance in the gun laws depending on what state you are in. In most of the states there are some laws/permits that allow one to carry concealed weapons (I think Illinois is the only exception, though this may be changing soon). There is also variance in what falls under these laws. In my state a tazer is considered a fire arm but a stun gun isn’t. In some states having more than a certain amount of pepper spray would require such a permit.

Most of the people that I know that have guns are females that have them for reasons of protection. They would not expect to be the winner in a fight based on strength and they all have at least some type concern for being a victim from the experiences of people they know. For example, one friend has carried a concealed weapon ever since her sister was found murdered. I myself don’t own a gun, but I carry pepper spray and a disguised stun gun (I can’t carry a tazer in some of the places I frequent).

I’m not confident that getting rid of guns would end problems such the events that inspired this thread. There are other methods one could use to kill. Mant of the same technologies and tools that can be used to save a life can be used to end one.

you are right that their are other methods one could use to kill. having such laws i stated and making it harder for someone to own a gun would limit killings with guns. AUstralia had a similar thing happen back in 1996 i think in Port Aurther and after that happend the laws on guns changed. One of them was banning automatic weapons. the govornment also had a scheme where people would go to there local police station and can give in there guns and illegal weapons and weapons they had that then didn’t want. It was called something like the buy back scheme and only recently people where allowed to go their local police station and give in any illigal weapons they where in possition without the coppers asking any question. All weapons recieve got destroyed. Maybe some of these weapons ended up with people whom had a death in the family and thus endup with the weapon and thesed people not know how to get rid of it.

 

[cheezey]

jesus4ever:
could you explain how the two quotes are connected in your post # 71?

 

[dailey]

YES, my faith gets shaken every time i turn on the news…my FAITH IN MANKIND.

My faith in God gets stronger.

You summed it up perfectly in 2 sentences…bravo!

 

[damscott]

Of course, many people question their faith when things go wrong … in their judgment.
But maybe it’s not necessary to think this way. Consider this argument;

Most agree that God has a plan for each of us.
In this case, of the kids being murdered at a very young age, it is possible to reason that, as always, there is more to the story. For example, God may have allowed them to be taken out of this world early in order that they could be saved. That is, had they lived longer, they may have lost their salvation through various means. This logic assumes that salvation is the ultimate goal or purpose of our lives, as our Christian belief system affirms. This logic applies to each of us at any age.

Since we cannot know the whole story, God’s plan; perhaps we should not judge God for anything that happens in our lives.

Don

 

[Sair]

i really have a hard time with a God that allows such horrible evil and suffering like that.

i know, free will and all, but , well, idk.

it does make me question things.

The real question is, why would any thinking, compassionate deity with the power to prevent such occurrences (even - who knows? - at the same time preserving the free will of the perpetrator - the God of Classical Theism is supposed to be omnipotent, after all) not do so? What is the actual justification for privileging the freedom of a violent offender over the rights of children to grow up unmolested? Would the world fall apart if God had a private conversation with the gunman and persuaded him to stop and think before he started shooting? It seems that if another human had done so, it would not be a violation of free will. How does that work?

 

[Sair]

Of course, many people question their faith when things go wrong … in their judgment.
But maybe it’s not necessary to think this way. Consider this argument;

Most agree that God has a plan for each of us.
In this case, of the kids being murdered at a very young age, it is possible to reason that, as always, there is more to the story. For example, God may have allowed them to be taken out of this world early in order that they could be saved. That is, had they lived longer, they may have lost their salvation through various means. This logic assumes that salvation is the ultimate goal or purpose of our lives, as our Christian belief system affirms. This logic applies to each of us at any age.

Since we cannot know the whole story, God’s plan; perhaps we should not judge God for anything that happens in our lives.

Don

By the very same logic, all foetuses should be aborted before they have a chance to ruin their opportunity for salvation.

 

[Sair]

“All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” - St. Paul.

It’s not God’s fault when people commit sin. Nor is it our role to tell God what He ought to have done for those children. What He did do for those children is, He welcomed them into Heaven, and they are at peace in the arms of Mary and Jesus. That’s all we can know for sure.

The God of Classical Theism is claimed to be perfect - and that by human judgement. Humans have declared him so. Somewhere along the line, there has been a grave disconnect, if a perfect God can allow a crazed shooter to cut off the lives of innocents, under his own supervision. Welcoming them into heaven is just bandaging the wound after it has been inflicted - a genuinely benevolent god would prevent the suffering before it happened, surely.

As for it not being God’s fault when people sin - didn’t he know before the fact that humans would sin? Isn’t he meant to be all-powerful? There’s really no excuse here. Even the free-will clause doesn’t get God out of jail free - he must be able to prevent evil without interfering with free will, since there is no logical contradiction in creating people who will tend towards choosing good…

The short version is - the argument from evil has no adequate counter. Give up trying.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

…the govornment also had a scheme where people would go to there local police station and can give in there guns and illegal weapons and weapons they had that then didn’t want. It was called something like the buy back scheme and only recently people where allowed to go their local police station and give in any illigal weapons they where in possition without the coppers asking any question. All weapons recieve got destroyed. Maybe some of these weapons ended up with people whom had a death in the family and thus endup with the weapon and thesed people not know how to get rid of it.

There are independent police stations that do something like that here in Georgia (not sure about the rest of the United States). There are a few states in which it appears that restrictions on guns would be unpopular. There was a repeatedly expressed concern that the current president would implement gun restrictions. When ever a shooting occurs I hear some language about it being “to soon” to talk about gun control. Not sure why.

A similar incident to the one being discussed happened at a mall a couple of weeks ago, at a movie theater before that, and in Arizona a couple of years ago.

 

[itullian]

That thought would not occur to us… which would mean one’s thoughts are partially controlled by an outside source. That does betray free will. The whole point of free will is that there is no outside control that we do not give.

And God didn’t design death, nor sickness. Those were not his system, not his decision. He did not create them.

God doesnt give us the ability to understand or think about many things, so we are limited already right?

he could control or eliminate disease, sickness if he wanted.

 

[GaryTaylor]

In reflection to this, I have one thing to say:

I saw a t-shirt online yesterday on Facebook that said this:

“Dear GOD”

Why do You allow so much violence in our schools?

Signed, Concerned student

the reply was:

“Dear Concerned student”

I am not allowed in schools

Signed, GOD

This is so true. When we shut the KING of Kings outside of Our Hearts, then this is the reality of what we have to face. It ticks me off so much that we can’t just wake up and smell the coffee. This society really is a downer…