Applause during Mass

[FrDavid96]

While I agree with you that applause should not occur during Mass, I do have a question. At the Easter Vigil Mass, after several dozen new members of the Church had been baptized and received Confirmation, the bishop asked everyone to welcome all our new brothers and sisters into our Catholic family. How are we supposed to show that welcome other than with applause? Was the bishop wrong in asking us to do so? And how would in that instance be any different than the applause at ordinations where you state that the applause is to show the congregation’s approval and support?

Good questions, and I’ll do my best to respond.

As far as the question “what should be done?” The answer is quite simple: follow the liturgical books approved by the Holy See. The RCIA ritual contains several options for the congregation’s short acclamation. A hymn is even appropriate (and some are mentioned in the text). There are also 12 short acclamations in the text, and any one of these 12 would be entirely appropriate. But clapping is not one of the options given–in spite of the fact that we often read on these threads that it is. It’s one of those “Catholic urban legends” we see all too often.

The difference between baptism and ordination has to do with history. In the early Church, a candidate for orders was presented to the bishop by the local community–minor orders, deacons, priests, and even bishops were chosen “by acclamation” of the people in that parish/diocese. The applause at an ordination used to indicate that the people approved of the choice. In fact, the Eastern Churches preserve this even better by the triple acclamation “Axios!” meaning literally “he is worthy!” In theory, if the people did not approve, the ordination wasn’t supposed to happen.

That’s very different from what we see in Baptism. The support of the congregation is expected in Baptism, but that’s not the same thing as saying that their approval is necessary.

Back to ordination, in the modern ordination rite the purpose of the acclamation is to show their support of the ordinand–it’s no longer a matter of approval, since the bishop has already determined that “he is worthy.” Even though the meaning has changed, the act itself (some sort of “applause” [even though I’d rather use a different word] according to the culture) has remained.

Do you see the difference? I hope I’ve explained it in a way that makes sense.

 

[whatevergirl]

“Whenever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievment, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.”

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
Pope Benedict XVI

Page 198 - The Spirit of the Liturgy

Oh wow, I’m in the best company with my thoughts on this! :clapping: <<—no pun, the applauding emoticon. I think many people feel that mass should be entertaining THEM…the reason mass exists is so we can worship Him.

 

[Frosty]

Good questions, and I’ll do my best to respond.

As far as the question “what should be done?” The answer is quite simple: follow the liturgical books approved by the Holy See. The RCIA ritual contains several options for the congregation’s short acclamation. A hymn is even appropriate (and some are mentioned in the text). There are also 12 short acclamations in the text, and any one of these 12 would be entirely appropriate. But clapping is not one of the options given–in spite of the fact that we often read on these threads that it is. It’s one of those “Catholic urban legends” we see all too often.

The difference between baptism and ordination has to do with history. In the early Church, a candidate for orders was presented to the bishop by the local community–minor orders, deacons, priests, and even bishops were chosen “by acclamation” of the people in that parish/diocese. The applause at an ordination used to indicate that the people approved of the choice. In fact, the Eastern Churches preserve this even better by the triple acclamation “Axios!” meaning literally “he is worthy!” In theory, if the people did not approve, the ordination wasn’t supposed to happen.

That’s very different from what we see in Baptism. The support of the congregation is expected in Baptism, but that’s not the same thing as saying that their approval is necessary.

Back to ordination, in the modern ordination rite the purpose of the acclamation is to show their support of the ordinand–it’s no longer a matter of approval, since the bishop has already determined that “he is worthy.” Even though the meaning has changed, the act itself (some sort of “applause” [even though I’d rather use a different word] according to the culture) has remained.

Do you see the difference? I hope I’ve explained it in a way that makes sense.

Thanks for the reply Fr.David. I do see and understand the difference. There was an acclamation sung by the choir right after the ceremony and before the bishop asked us to welcome the new members. I guess my confusion stems from the fact that our bishop is a true stickler when it comes to the liturgy so I assumed that if he judged it was appropriate to ask the congregation to join in the welcome it must have been okay.

 

[JMJ_coder]

No, there is no applause in the Rite of Baptism. The congregation might “sing a short acclamation” and there are 12 options for these in the Rite itself. Applause is not one of those options. See RCIA # 359.

The times that applause might occur in the Liturgy can indeed be counted on the fingers of one hand. In fact, only one finger is needed.

The only time applause can licitly occur within the Mass is at an ordination Mass when the congregation expresses it’s support (and historically, it’s approval) of the ordinand.

I understand what you are saying Father – and I don’t dispute your information on the rite itself and the absence of a rubric for applause. But, I still think that its not completely inappropriate for the congregation to welcome newly baptized/confirmed members with an applause, especially if directed to do so by the Priest or Bishop (especially the Bishop).

 

[FrDavid96]

I understand what you are saying Father – and I don’t dispute your information on the rite itself and the absence of a rubric for applause. But, I still think that its not completely inappropriate for the congregation to welcome newly baptized/confirmed members with an applause, especially if directed to do so by the Priest or Bishop (especially the Bishop).

I hear what you’re saying, but you’re trying to convince the wrong person. This might be the sort of thing that would be an adaptation to be proposed by the conference of bishops and submitted to the Holy See for recognition.

In the meantime, the ritual says what the ritual says.

We can all have our own opinions on what should be done, or should not be done, and that’s fine. We can even share our opinions. But we do have to keep in mind that it’s not our own opinions about what is appropriate that ultimately matters.

I have my own personal opinion on a lot of things I’d like to see changed with regard to RCIA and infant baptisms. But when it comes right down to it, my opinion means nothing. I have to follow the ritual books approved by Rome–and so does every other celebrant.

 

[Bluegoat]

Good questions, and I’ll do my best to respond.

As far as the question “what should be done?” The answer is quite simple: follow the liturgical books approved by the Holy See. The RCIA ritual contains several options for the congregation’s short acclamation. A hymn is even appropriate (and some are mentioned in the text). There are also 12 short acclamations in the text, and any one of these 12 would be entirely appropriate. But clapping is not one of the options given–in spite of the fact that we often read on these threads that it is. It’s one of those “Catholic urban legends” we see all too often.

The difference between baptism and ordination has to do with history. In the early Church, a candidate for orders was presented to the bishop by the local community–minor orders, deacons, priests, and even bishops were chosen “by acclamation” of the people in that parish/diocese. The applause at an ordination used to indicate that the people approved of the choice. In fact, the Eastern Churches preserve this even better by the triple acclamation “Axios!” meaning literally “he is worthy!” In theory, if the people did not approve, the ordination wasn’t supposed to happen.

That’s very different from what we see in Baptism. The support of the congregation is expected in Baptism, but that’s not the same thing as saying that their approval is necessary.

Back to ordination, in the modern ordination rite the purpose of the acclamation is to show their support of the ordinand–it’s no longer a matter of approval, since the bishop has already determined that “he is worthy.” Even though the meaning has changed, the act itself (some sort of “applause” [even though I’d rather use a different word] according to the culture) has remained.

Do you see the difference? I hope I’ve explained it in a way that makes sense.

But I think in that specific case, the Bishop could only have been asking for applause. If he wanted some sort of acclimation, he would have to tell them beforehand, or how would they know what to do? And once he asked, it would be very uncomfortable if people didn’t do it. So while he may have been wrong to ask, I think they were actually right to applaud.

 

[FrDavid96]

But I think in that specific case, the Bishop could only have been asking for applause. If he wanted some sort of acclimation, he would have to tell them beforehand, or how would they know what to do? And once he asked, it would be very uncomfortable if people didn’t do it. So while he may have been wrong to ask, I think they were actually right to applaud.

If a bishop feels that applause is appropriate, he can make that proposal to the USCCB, and if enough bishops agree, the proposal can be submitted to the Holy See for recognition. If such recognition is granted, then applause can be added to the rite of Baptism. Until that happens, the ritual says what the ritual says.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Br. Rich - I see the Holy Father says “…some human achievment…” I do not have the book you reference, so I was wondering if the passage means that applause is acceptable for a supernatural achievement like Baptism, Marriage, etc. I don’t think he means it that way, I am just curious. Thanks.

I
believe that he means any applause, we have receptions after Baptism, First Communion, Confirmation, Marriage, Etc, That is the time to applaud and congratulate.

 

[fish90]

I asked the same question. Here are some other opinions.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=360302

 

[thunderballs75]

I dont applause nor hold hands during the Our Father nor do I Orans Posture. Funny thing is according to what I know Im doing the right things but look like the odd man out…LOL

Ive even been scoffed at for my unwillingness to participate in holding hands.

I dont go to Mass for entertainment.

Its only 1 hour why do people feel the need to add things? Is not the presence of Christ enough? Have people lost faith in the true presence and thats why we feel the need to clap,hold hands, flail hands out (and also with you) To me this is all show. Is it any wonder applause has crept in?

LOL Yeah! I always end up looking like a real you know what.

They always call us Pharisees. However, when we don’t conform to their innovations exactly like them, and don’t hold the exact preferences as them, then they scoff at us and chastise us.

Then they don’t want to shake my hand during the “Sign of Peace.” LOL

 

[Bluegoat]

If a bishop feels that applause is appropriate, he can make that proposal to the USCCB, and if enough bishops agree, the proposal can be submitted to the Holy See for recognition. If such recognition is granted, then applause can be added to the rite of Baptism. Until that happens, the ritual says what the ritual says.

So what should the congregation have done?

 

[FrDavid96]

So what should the congregation have done?

The rite itself tells us what everyone should do.

 

[Frosty]

The rite itself tells us what everyone should do.

I don’t want to belabour the point but I’m still a bit confused here. Isn’t the bishop the chief liturgist of his diocese? I know that he still has to obey Rome and follow the GIRM. However, if on the occassion of receiving over 90 people of all ages into his cathedral parish he deems it fit to ask the congregation to welcome them and applause is the only way we have at that moment of doing so, I honestly do not see why he would be wrong.

 

[russell007]

LOL Yeah! I always end up looking like a real you know what.

They always call us Pharisees. However, when we don’t conform to their innovations exactly like them, and don’t hold the exact preferences as them, then they scoff at us and chastise us.

Then they don’t want to shake my hand during the “Sign of Peace.” LOL

You are so right!!

They think your being a you know what when you refuse to hold hands and when you offer the sign of peace they ignore you!

One of those emabarrising Sundays I think we have all experienced when its time to give the sign of peace and your turning in all directions and noone achknowledges you so you just face forward and wait for the sign of peace to end.

Makes me want to make up index cards on holding hands then going to mass early placing the index cards in the pews around me.

Or make up some tee shirts with applauding hands, the orans posture “I am here for mass not to be entertained”

HEY SOMEONE NEEDS TO EDUCATE.

 

[Cat]

In the United States, applause is not just a response to “entertainment.” That’s just one use of applause.

Applause is a method (usually hand-clapping) by which a group of people corporately (together) say “Thank You” or “We are appreciative of you and/or your work.”

There is nothing wrong and there is much good when a congregation says “Thank you, we appreciate it.” I think we should do this more often, not less. We are an ungrateful, self-centered people, and often all we think about is our own gratification. We don’t notice when other people have done something good. We’re too busy looking at all the bad things people do.

This needs to stop. We need to encourage people by thanking them, and applause is one way to say “thanks.”

Good manners and kindheartedness should characterize our daily life as Christians, including our life before, during, and after the Mass. Yes, the Mass is a Holy Sacrifice. But Jesus does not stay dead during the Mass. He is gloriously risen from the dead. Solemnity does not mean silence and withdrawal from this human life. We are present in heaven during the Mass, but we are not absent from this earth. Humans remain human, and enjoy receiving a kind word, a gesture of peace, or am expression of thanks. There is nothing evil about this.

In almost every one of his letters, St. Paul commends various people. He tells us to honor those who have done good things.

The alternative is for every single person in the congregation to line up and say a kind word or thank you to the person who has done something deserving of appreciation. E.g., the new members–every person would have to line up and shake hands and say something kind. That is not practical.

Keep in mind that most musicians in Catholic churches do not receive any payment. The janitor gets paid, while the musician is a volunteer. It is always a pleasure to know that people appreciated the music and got something good out of it. It won’t buy us a groceries, but at least it encourages our souls.

A few weeks ago, I played a prelude for Mass that garnered applause (the ushers started it). After the Mass, a gentleman came up to me and said, “It’s been such a bad week for me, I really needed to be lifted up, and that song did it. Thank you.” I so appreciated him taking the time to tell me that, and I realized that probably many of the people who applauded felt the same way, but just didn’t have the time or were too shy to say anything. Applauding in a group allowed them to express their gratitude anonymously.

 

[Cat]

You are so right!!

They think your being a you know what when you refuse to hold hands and when you offer the sign of peace they ignore you!

One of those emabarrising Sundays I think we have all experienced when its time to give the sign of peace and your turning in all directions and noone achknowledges you so you just face forward and wait for the sign of peace to end.

Makes me want to make up index cards on holding hands then going to mass early placing the index cards in the pews around me.

Or make up some tee shirts with applauding hands, the orans posture “I am here for mass not to be entertained”

HEY SOMEONE NEEDS TO EDUCATE.

I don’t attend Mass to be entertained, either. I attend to “serve” or “work” or “assist.” If someone says “thank you” or some other kind word to me, I am grateful.

If you consider it “entertainment” to shake hands with or nod and smile to a fellow Christian and wish him/her the peace of Christ, then I would say that it is you who needs to be educated. I consider it an act of showing mercy, kindness, and humilty. How does mercy, kindness, and humility dishonor the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ?

I know you’re joking, but making index cards or t-shirts would be to call attention to yourself, and heap derision upon an ancient tradition (Sign of Peace) that has been part of the Catholic Mass from the very beginning. It would not be an act of humility at all, and it would detract from the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Jesus made it very clear in His words and by His actions that He wasn’t interested in ceremonies as much as He was in showing love and doing good.

You’re paying too much attention to other people and assuming things about them that probably aren’t true at all. It is highly unlikely that everyone thinks you’re a “you know what” when you refuse to hold hands, or when you give off signals that you are not interested in exchanging the Sign of Peace. Believe it or not, people really aren’t paying as much attention to you as you think they are. They probably aren’t even noticing you. (Many people don’t exchange the Sign of Peace during flu season, or for other health-related reasons, but many of them continue to smile benevolently upon their fellow Christians and wish them well anyway.) As long as you are not being disruptive or doing something blatantly irreverent, most people at Mass are happy to allow you to worship Christ in the way that you feel is most honoring to Christ. Honest.

 

[FrDavid96]

You are so right!!

They think your being a you know what when you refuse to hold hands and when you offer the sign of peace they ignore you!

One of those emabarrising Sundays I think we have all experienced when its time to give the sign of peace and your turning in all directions and noone achknowledges you so you just face forward and wait for the sign of peace to end.

Makes me want to make up index cards on holding hands then going to mass early placing the index cards in the pews around me.

Or make up some tee shirts with applauding hands, the orans posture “I am here for mass not to be entertained”

HEY SOMEONE NEEDS TO EDUCATE.

A lot of pastors are trying to educate. This is especially true of our recently ordained priests and our seminarians. Even the popularity of the Pope’s book (then-Cardinal The Spirit of the Liturgy) is making a very positive contribution to this process. I’ve found that very helpful in explaining to people why applause isn’t appropriate at Mass because rather than being a matter of reading liturgical laws (which causes too many to turn away) this format is easier for the average person to grasp because it’s not a simple “this is not done.”

The quote from post #6 is worth repeating

“Whenever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievment, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.”

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
Pope Benedict XVI

Page 198 - The Spirit of the Liturgy

 

[PassthePeace1]

I too am uncomfortable with applause during Mass, yet I also felt so uncomfortable just standing or sitting there not clapping along. So now, what I started doing when the priest calls for applause, is say a silent prayer of praise to God. For example, applaused called for Sister Mary Helen’s fifty years of service to the Church, I say a prayer of thanks and praise for her service.

 

[russell007]

I don’t attend Mass to be entertained, either. I attend to “serve” or “work” or “assist.” If someone says “thank you” or some other kind word to me, I am grateful.

If you consider it “entertainment” to shake hands with or nod and smile to a fellow Christian and wish him/her the peace of Christ, then I would say that it is you who needs to be educated. I consider it an act of showing mercy, kindness, and humilty. How does mercy, kindness, and humility dishonor the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ?

I know you’re joking, but making index cards or t-shirts would be to call attention to yourself, and heap derision upon an ancient tradition (Sign of Peace) that has been part of the Catholic Mass from the very beginning. It would not be an act of humility at all, and it would detract from the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Jesus made it very clear in His words and by His actions that He wasn’t interested in ceremonies as much as He was in showing love and doing good.

You’re paying too much attention to other people and assuming things about them that probably aren’t true at all. It is highly unlikely that everyone thinks you’re a “you know what” when you refuse to hold hands, or when you give off signals that you are not interested in exchanging the Sign of Peace. Believe it or not, people really aren’t paying as much attention to you as you think they are. They probably aren’t even noticing you. (Many people don’t exchange the Sign of Peace during flu season, or for other health-related reasons, but many of them continue to smile benevolently upon their fellow Christians and wish them well anyway.) As long as you are not being disruptive or doing something blatantly irreverent, most people at Mass are happy to allow you to worship Christ in the way that you feel is most honoring to Christ. Honest.

I appreciate any rebutle however…

The old atage still holds true today “If you dont stand for somehting youll fall for anything”

Stating applause is wrong in mass may seem petty to some but the small disobediences lead to bigger issues. Check out youtube just put in clown mass, puppet mass. youll see things on a bigger scale.

Have you not seen a teenlife mass? I know most of them have been toned down since Pope Benedict has been pope. Before it was more like a concert than a mass But thats another blog alltogether.

One day we may loose our Catholic identity and I for one dont want to see that happen.

Case and point I have gone to mass since 1964 back in the 70s I remember having to navagate past the obedient folks that stay in the pew the ones that didnt go to communion because of sin. Today most every one goes to communion. Does this mean noone commits mortal sins anymore? or people just started doing things their own way?
What feels right and good to them and ignoring the laws of the church.

If you consider it “entertainment” to shake hands with or nod and smile to a fellow Christian and wish him/her the peace of Christ, then I would say that it is you who needs to be educated.

I said nothing about nods or smile being illicit or wrong please do not add words to my statement to make your point.

Go back and read my post again I stated noone wanted **to give me the sign of peace **and “I” am not acknowledge due to the fact I will not hold hands during the Our Father

i.e. YOUR NOT SUPPOSED TO HOLD HANDS DURING THE OUR FATHER ITS DISCOURAGED.

And yes saints and our current pope agrees it falls under people wanting to be entertained at mass its not just MY opinion.

Jesus made it very clear in His words and by His actions that He wasn’t interested in ceremonies as much as He was in showing love and doing good.

The Roman Catholic church is Ceremonies and rites and tradition. Has the Holy See been wrong about that too for the past 2000 years?

Applause should not happen during mass your not disagreering with me so much as you defy the church laws!!! These are not Russells Rubrics but the rules of our church if you dont want to follow them thats up to you.

Many see nothing wrong with applause, holding hands during the Our Father etc…

I am just stating what our faith teaches us and for those who disagree or think they know better than the Holy See then maybe you shouldnt be catholic.

Theres other religions out there that allow you to clap,roll around on the floor, raise yor hands and scream out however the spirit may move you. Perhaps that better suites your taste.

Contrary to popular belief Catholosism is not a democracy.

Follow the rules of our religion like they ask you And dont have to be a blind follower look up the reasons why or why not we should do certain things and then youll understand the Holy See was/is not as stuffy as you may think. There are good reasons.

Pax et bonum

 

[Cat]

I appreciate any rebutle however…

The old atage still holds true today “If you dont stand for somehting youll fall for anything”

Stating applause is wrong in mass may seem petty to some but the small disobediences lead to bigger issues. Check out youtube just put in clown mass, puppet mass. youll see things on a bigger scale.

Have you not seen a teenlife mass? I know most of them have been toned down since Pope Benedict has been pope. Before it was more like a concert than a mass But thats another blog alltogether.

One day we may loose our Catholic identity and I for one dont want to see that happen.

Case and point I have gone to mass since 1964 back in the 70s I remember having to navagate past the obedient folks that stay in the pew the ones that didnt go to communion because of sin. Today most every one goes to communion. Does this mean noone commits mortal sins anymore? or people just started doing things their own way?
What feels right and good to them and ignoring the laws of the church.

If you consider it “entertainment” to shake hands with or nod and smile to a fellow Christian and wish him/her the peace of Christ, then I would say that it is you who needs to be educated.

I said nothing about nods or smile being illicit or wrong please do not add words to my statement to make your point.

Go back and read my post again I stated noone wanted **to give me the sign of peace **and “I” am not acknowledge due to the fact I will not hold hands during the Our Father

i.e. YOUR NOT SUPPOSED TO HOLD HANDS DURING THE OUR FATHER ITS DISCOURAGED.

And yes saints and our current pope agrees it falls under people wanting to be entertained at mass its not just MY opinion.

Jesus made it very clear in His words and by His actions that He wasn’t interested in ceremonies as much as He was in showing love and doing good.

The Roman Catholic church is Ceremonies and rites and tradition. Has the Holy See been wrong about that too for the past 2000 years?

Applause should not happen during mass your not disagreering with me so much as you defy the church laws!!! These are not Russells Rubrics but the rules of our church if you dont want to follow them thats up to you.

Many see nothing wrong with applause, holding hands during the Our Father etc…

I am just stating what our faith teaches us and for those who disagree or think they know better than the Holy See then maybe you shouldnt be catholic.

Theres other religions out there that allow you to clap,roll around on the floor, raise yor hands and scream out however the spirit may move you. Perhaps that better suites your taste.

Contrary to popular belief Catholosism is not a democracy.

Follow the rules of our religion like they ask you And dont have to be a blind follower look up the reasons why or why not we should do certain things and then youll understand the Holy See was/is not as stuffy as you may think. There are good reasons.

Pax et bonum

Actually, according to the rubrics, the priest is “in charge” of the Mass, under the authority of the bishop. Applause is not specifically forbidden in the rubrics. So if the priest or bishop asks for or allows applause, then we as faithful Catholics will do no wrong by submitting to our priest or bishop.

The rubrics do not specifically address holding hands during the Our Father. Some Catholics assume that means that no one can hold hands. Other Catholics, like me, assume that if the rubrics are silent, it is not forbidden. I personally do not hold hands or assume the “orans” position during the Our Father, as I was taught that this is not the norm for Mass.

Yes, I have attended many Life Teen Masses. Our parish offers Life Teen Mass every Sunday evening, and it is generally standing room only, attended by a few hundred teenagers, as well as their parents and others who enjoy contemporary music performed by young people. The Mass follows the rubrics and does not contain abuses (e.g., gathering around the altar is not done). Our bishop is one of the most conservative and orthodox in the U.S., (Bishop Thomas Doran) and he encourages the Life Teen Mass at our parish.

Yes, the Catholic Church is rites and ceremonies, and no, the Holy See has not been wrong for 2000 years. But the Catholic Church is, above all, the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, and our primary responsibility is to lift Him up so that all men might be drawn to Him. Rites and ceremonies change through the centuries, because Jesus gave the Catholic Church authority here on this earth to make changes when necessary.