Appropriate Punishment: Please read before voting.

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Jesus4Me:
First - human life is not ours to take.

Second - he WILL receive a just punishment, even if it is not on earth.

However, while he is on our earth he should be locked up until he dies a natural death. Period.
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And perhaps he will repent and gain salvation.
 
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Vincente:
… and how we treat those that are imprisoned is a direct reflection of the value we place all human life. If it were my decision, I would give the criminal a life time to reflect upon his crimes.
This philosophy has never set well with me. Until the last few years Catholics were no more or less likely to oppose the death penalty than anyone else. Jesus Christ did not challenge the death penalty imposed upon Himself. The saints have made it their mission to win the souls of the condemned rather than worry about prolonging their miserable lives. To embrace this new way of thinking I have to believe that holier people than me were guilty of criminal intent and callous disregard for human life. That is preposterous.
Each of us has a destiny. Our path in this world inexorably leads to eternity. It is true that some people in our society are frankly homicidal/suicidal maniacs. The death penalty doesn’t deter people who want to die, especially when their death is painless. But it is impossible to infer from the opinion of convicted murders and other criminals who might be polled that the death penalty is not a deterrent for more rational persons.
Even if the death penalty is not a deterrent it gives the murderer the spiritual benefit of finality which focuses his attention on eternity. By locking such a person up without worldly distractions, with only a crucifix in his cell and a priest to daily visit him for 30 days prior to his definite execution, such a person will be well focused at the end. I have a very supernatural outlook in regard to these wretches. I want them to be saved. Grace acting upon a soul whose death is imminent is a very powerful thing. Long years of imprisonment in a godless hopeless American prison seems less conducive to conversion than despair.
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This is the story of three opinions.
There was Papa’s opinion. He was too far right:
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benedictusoblat:
Even if the death penalty is not a deterrent it gives the murderer the spiritual benefit of finality which focuses his attention on eternity. By locking such a person up without worldly distractions, with only a crucifix in his cell and a priest to daily visit him for 30 days prior to his definite execution, such a person will be well focused at the end. I have a very supernatural outlook in regard to these wretches. I want them to be saved. Grace acting upon a soul whose death is imminent is a very powerful thing. Long years of imprisonment in a godless hopeless American prison seems less conducive to conversion than despair.
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There was Momma’s opinion, she’s far to left.
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estesbob:
Life, from the moment of conception to the moment of natural death is the provence of God.
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Then there was Auntie right in the middle.
As is usually the case, she was just right.😉 :rolleyes:
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Antigen:
There is no way to justify the dealth penalty today because:

  1. *]a very few bad apple cops pick up people more because of their ethnicity than because of any real evidence of guilt and these innocent parties get convicted thus a death penalty could injure innocent parties
    *]we can safely secure these criminals away from just society by changing our laws and doing away with the ambiguities that allow judges and parole boards to let these people loose
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  1. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_2_127.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_2_128.gifSo Auntie put them to bed
    smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_4_108.gif Gave them a kiss on the head.
    smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/12/12_5_41.gif Then she turned out the light,
    smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_28_110.gif And said goodnight

    The End:D
 
I can’t stop laughing Antigen!

You’re so funny! 🙂

And 777, what is not civil or not orthodox about the discussion? It’s only getting better.
 
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Antigen:
There is no way to justify the dealth penalty today because:


  1. *]a very few bad apple cops pick up people more because of their ethnicity than because of any real evidence of guilt thus a death penalty could injure innocent parties
    *]we can safely secure these criminals away from just society by changing our laws and doing away with the ambiguities that allow judges and parole boards to let these people loose:hmmm:
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  1. When you can’t sway the public that a punishment is unjust because the criminal is a minority, can be rehabilitated, or has a low IQ it must be the Bad Apple Cop excuse…

    Do you know (at least in this crazy place called California) what the penalty is for bad apple cops and anyone else guilty of “framing” someone ain a death penalty case is???
    HMMMMM any guesses???

    It is the DEATH PENALTY!!!

    That in itself seems to be a pretty big DETERRENT!!! Otherwise the police might be framing people at a much higher rate…:rolleyes:

    So many of us seem to have more faith in the crooks than in those who safeguard us.
 
We would not be human if we didn’t feel horror and outrage at a crime such as this.
But as our holy priest told us during his homily at mass for Pentecost: when we allow the Holy Spirit to come into us, we become people of forgiveness and we cease holding anger, grudges, and seeking revenge.

I believe that if we seriously want to become Christ-like in our lives, we must strive to see the criminal as from the eyes of God. Surely God is horrified and hurting when someone commits such a terrible crime. But Christ would also look at the criminal as a person whose life has gone terribly wrong and spiraled out of control. I think the questions we must ask ourselves are: What has happened in this person’s life to cause a human being to reach a point that they would harm/kill someone? What has made them choose the wrong path and reject goodness? How can we see the criminal as human when we are so horrified by his crime?
It is also very interesting that people who commit sex crimes (with real DSM diagnoses) are dealt with only for their crime and not the underlying illness. That is by no means an excuse for a terrible crime but why are we talking only about prison or the death penalty rather than incarceration and treatment so that the criminal can really see what his illness and actions have done to another person and receive treatment. And of course, if the criminal can find his way to a spiritual life, then a soul can be saved.
We do not know God’s timing for this person. God wants everyone to reconcile to Him and we cannot presume to take on God’s role of determining the man’s death.
In the case being discussed, I recall reading that the child’s (Protestant) minister asked his congregation to remember that we are asked by God to forgive.
We all hope for God’s forgiveness and mercy. How can we deny it to another?
 
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Blanka:
We would not be human if we didn’t feel horror and outrage at a crime such as this.
But as our holy priest told us during his homily at mass for Pentecost: when we allow the Holy Spirit to come into us, we become people of forgiveness and we cease holding anger, grudges, and seeking revenge.

I believe that if we seriously want to become Christ-like in our lives, we must strive to see the criminal as from the eyes of God. Surely God is horrified and hurting when someone commits such a terrible crime. But Christ would also look at the criminal as a person whose life has gone terribly wrong and spiraled out of control. I think the questions we must ask ourselves are: What has happened in this person’s life to cause a human being to reach a point that they would harm/kill someone? What has made them choose the wrong path and reject goodness? How can we see the criminal as human when we are so horrified by his crime?
It is also very interesting that people who commit sex crimes (with real DSM diagnoses) are dealt with only for their crime and not the underlying illness. That is by no means an excuse for a terrible crime but why are we talking only about prison or the death penalty rather than incarceration and treatment so that the criminal can really see what his illness and actions have done to another person and receive treatment. And of course, if the criminal can find his way to a spiritual life, then a soul can be saved.
We do not know God’s timing for this person. God wants everyone to reconcile to Him and we cannot presume to take on God’s role of determining the man’s (or woman’s) death.
In the case being discussed, I recall reading that the child’s (Protestant) minister asked his congregation to remember that we are asked by God to forgive.
We all hope for God’s forgiveness and mercy. How can we deny it to another?
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Well said.
 
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qmvsimp:
I can’t stop laughing Antigen!

You’re so funny! 🙂

And 777, what is not civil or not orthodox about the discussion? It’s only getting better.
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Simple–that kind of stuff is way too depressin’.
 
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Blanka:
We all hope for God’s forgiveness and mercy. How can we deny it to another?
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Very eloquent. I want to touch upon this misconception among Catholics concerning prison and punishment and sin and forgiveness.

With removing sin there are two parts: forgiveness and penance. In confession, our sins are forgiven and then our penance removes the temporal punishment due to sin. Things here on earth that remove temporal punishment due to sin include indulgences and suffering. In the afterlife it is purgatory that removes the temporal punishment due to sin. God has already forgiven us.

So even if our sins are forgiven, we still must have penance. In a murderers case, we do forgive them, but they still must “pay” for their crime. There is nothing about prison or the death penalty that lacks forgiveness.
 
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Isidore_AK:
What is the proper punishment?
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Life without the possibility of parole or probation.

I think that there are many crimes committed that are beyond our ability to achieve justice and the best we can hope for is revenge.

Revenge isn’t justice.

This tread exposes my hypocrisy… Intellectually I say life in prison, but emotionally; revenge would be much more satisfying.
 
Unfortunately many states only have the the death penalty OR life WITH parole… nothing in between… in that case you have to go Death penalty.

If every state had life with NO parole, it would always be the better choice.
 
I approach the question of the death penalty from my understanding of the principle of self defense. The State just as an individual has the right to defend itself. Using the teachings of Augustine and Aquinas it is my opinion that once an individual is no longer an immediate threat, prision removes this immediate threat, then the taking of that’s individual’s life (no matter how terrible the crime) can be justified. I therefore see life in prison with out parole as the only just punishment.
 
Wow. I hadn’t realized this thread was still alive!

I do have to admit, I would rather that the question never come up.
If only people would live good moral lives…

But if you’re going to be a criminal, please do the rest of us the favor of commiting suicide by cop (i.e. forcing the police to shoot them).

I know, not very nice. Not very Catholic. But it does seem to be a bit of ‘justice’ on earth…
 
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TOME:
I approach the question of the death penalty from my understanding of the principle of self defense. The State just as an individual has the right to defend itself. Using the teachings of Augustine and Aquinas it is my opinion that once an individual is no longer an immediate threat, prision removes this immediate threat, then the taking of that’s individual’s life (no matter how terrible the crime) can be justified. I therefore see life in prison with out parole as the only just punishment.
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Presuming you meant “cannot be justified” instead of “can be justified,” let’s take your argument to its logical conclusion. If self defense, then why keep him in prison until death? We only need to keep prisoners in prison until they are no longer a threat. If you kill your wife and her lover, then you’re not a threat as long as you don’t get married and your wife doesn’t cheat on you.

The point is, fines, prison, community service, capital punishment, etc. all serve two purposes: protecting society and punishing the individual for the crime. You can be for capital punishment and acknowledge that you’re not doing it to protect society or for “self-defense” reasons.

Remember the question at hand is: appropriate punishment. Not appropriate method of protecting society. The two are not the same, just like forgiveness and penance aren’t. See my earlier post.
 
I think death penalty is appropriate under certain conditions. Take sex offenders for instance. Yet another child was murdered and molested by a convicted sex offender. It’s time we start protecting the children and executing sex offenders. Another instance I believe in the death penalty is for people who have escaped from prison. People who are escape risks endanger the lives of innocent people. If jails can’t hold these people then they deserve to be executed.

I believe in the death penalty when it is used to protect the people and not as a means of revenge. Another case is terrorists like Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. As long as these people are alive they will inspire their supporters to kill people to win thier release.
 
The primary purpose of capital punishment is strict retributive justice. When a criminal commits such a heineous crime, such as the one described, then the death penalty is the only punishment that adequately fits the gravity of the crime. We currently give life in prison without parole to persons who commit crimes less grave than murder. Are we saying that heineous rape and murder is equivalent to less serious crimes? God commanded that the death penalty be administered by the state for the crime of deliberate murder (Genesis 9:6). This covenant with Noah is universal, not simply Mosaic, and was never revoked in the New Testament.

The Church’s teaching is that the death penalty is intrinsically just when the crime is sufficiently grave and that it is the state who must decide when to apply the death penalty. I think that it is nearly always appropriate to apply the death penalty to any crimes of 1st degree murder.
 
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TOME:
I approach the question of the death penalty from my understanding of the principle of self defense. The State just as an individual has the right to defend itself. Using the teachings of Augustine and Aquinas it is my opinion that once an individual is no longer an immediate threat, prision removes this immediate threat, then the taking of that’s individual’s life (no matter how terrible the crime) can be justified. I therefore see life in prison with out parole as the only just punishment.
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“Self defense” is not the primary purpose of punishment according to Aquinas and the tradition of the Church. That is an innovation of Pope John Paul II and while it has merit, it is not equal in merit to the traditional retributive purpose of punishment as proved from Scripture, Tradition, and Natural Law. Self defense of society is important, but as St. Paul points out in his epistle to the Romans (Romans 13:4), “for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.”

Scripture is clear. The state is God’s agent to administer wrath and vengeance on those who break the law. Notice that St. Paul is not talking about a Christian state or Catholic state. Paul is saying that the pagan empire of Rome is God’s agent of vengeance in the world. This is a far cry from the current anti-death penalty sentiment that is being promoted by our Bishops. But I will stick to divine revelation.
 
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