Archbishop Chaput sees 'subtle hopelessness' in message of Synod working document [CC]

[MacBP]

A contributing factor in acknowledging the determining role of women in society could be a greater appreciation of their responsibility in the Church, namely, their involvement in the decision-making process, their participation — not simply in a formal way — in the governing of some institutions; and their involvement in the formation of ordained ministers."

I’m not sure what to make of this. Although its true that women may not hold leadership positions within the Vatican, it would be wrong to suggest that they don’t hold leadership positions within the Church. That be at the local level (setting aside the the role of the pastor, I’ve never seen a parish not run by the women), running religious communities, and holding leadership positions within Catholic charities and similar types of organizations.

As far as their involvement in the decision making process, aren’t the big decisions (the ones that ultimately matter) a product of the Holy Spirit? It’s not as if the men are calling the shots on areas of doctrine or dogma?

 

[sarah_j]

Glancing through the reports from the English speaking groups, it seems they all noted the negativity of the Instrumentum laboris, not just Abp. Chaput’s group. Interesting.
Dan

Yep… “virtually every group”.

**Working document is too negative, Synod fathers say [CWN]
**
At the Synod of Bishops, a clear common theme emerged from the reports of small groups that have been discussing the Synod’s working document: virtually every group said that the instrumentum laboris was overly preoccupied with the problems of marriage and family life, and did not provide enough encouragement and guidance for the faithful who are committed to living out their vocations in the family.

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[PaulinVA]

Right. I accept that the intentions and the doctrinal content are aimed that way. The concern is that this pastoral approach will not lead people to their best selves but tend to confirm and validate them without adequately calling them to pursue the best good for themselves and those they live with. I don’t think the concern is with doctrinal errors contained in the statements but with an inadequate pastoral approach.

I see the problem as one of standards or excellence or good enough.

For many people, they hear that the pursuit of holiness or an effort that gets them to 70% of the standard is adequate, “Hey, I’m trying” becomes the goal, not, “I’ve resolved my impediment to full Communion with the Church”.

Trying is a good thing, but actually doing is the goal. Telling people that trying alone is sufficient is deficient.

 

[franklinstower]

I see the problem as one of standards or excellence or good enough.

For many people, they hear that the pursuit of holiness or an effort that gets them to 70% of the standard is adequate, “Hey, I’m trying” becomes the goal, not, “I’ve resolved my impediment to full Communion with the Church”.

Trying is a good thing, but actually doing is the goal. Telling people that trying alone is sufficient is deficient.

The danger here is to see “them” as the sinners and “ourselves” as the “excellent” instead of all of us in deep need of Gods grace and healing. Do you really grade yourself and others in this way? What grade do you give yourself? Are you getting an A? Even in full communion with the Church you are in danger of hell and even without it someone can be saved.

You are only trying, I am only trying, each of us is falling so very short of the ideal. This is one of the main things I learned from Catholicism, especially when reading of the saints. We are all so very far from the ideal. We have to be very careful not to become the Sadducee’s and Pharisees of our day.

Again the Church is just trying to come up with a general tone that leads the most people to Christ, and that loses the least people. Individual pastoral care and instruction and all of the subtleties and differences of situation have to be taken into account.

 

[LongingSoul]

The danger here is to see “them” as the sinners and “ourselves” as the “excellent” instead of all of us in deep need of Gods grace and healing. Do you really grade yourself and others in this way? What grade do you give yourself? Are you getting an A? Even in full communion with the Church you are in danger of hell and even without it someone can be saved.

You are only trying, I am only trying, each of us is falling so very short of the ideal. This is one of the main things I learned from Catholicism, especially when reading of the saints. We are all so very far from the ideal. We have to be very careful not to become the Sadducee’s and Pharisees of our day.

Again the Church is just trying to come up with a general tone that leads the most people to Christ, and that loses the least people. Individual pastoral care and instruction and all of the subtleties and differences of situation have to be taken into account.

Absolutely! hence the Churchs renewed push to recognise and acknowledge the good in those we would traditionally lable schismatics and heretics (Protestants), adulterers, fornicators and sodomites. Vatican II was meant to ignite ecumenism as a celebration of what unites us rather than constantly reinforcing what divides us and I think we have to fight that divisive attitude even within our own Church. It’s the celebration of what is good. Not celebration of sin.

 

[franklinstower]

Absolutely! hence the Churchs renewed push to recognise and acknowledge the good in those we would traditionally lable schismatics and heretics (Protestants), adulterers, fornicators and sodomites. Vatican II was meant to ignite ecumenism as a celebration of what unites us rather than constantly reinforcing what divides us and I think we have to fight that divisive attitude even within our own Church. It’s the celebration of what is good. Not celebration of sin.

Amen.

Some people are entrenched in sin due to long term physical abuse, sexual abuse, being raised and interacted with by people who were on drugs or alcoholic, domestic violence modeled as a norm ,being raised by people with mental illness, psychological abuse etc. the effects and behaviors of all of this can last for generations…

The degree to which dysfunction and sin are entrenched in the minds, and emotional states of a significant percentage of the population has to be taken into account. It is a long process of healing for many and broken relationships, profound confusion, deep seated feelings of shame and guilt, repressed anger and pain, are all a part of what some so callously view as “sinful behavior” on the part of “them’”

For these people, a large segment of the “sinful” population, a deep need for acceptance, love, and guidance, over a long period of time is what is needed to undo the damage done and learn a new way. Years are needed, and the deepest pain and wounding and associated sin often comes up late in the process. Many do not seem to be finding the spiritual direction and community needed for this at the local parish and are leaving and going to places where they can. I think that is very sad, and a great failure on the part of religion.

 

[PaulinVA]

The danger here is to see “them” as the sinners and “ourselves” as the “excellent” instead of all of us in deep need of Gods grace and healing. Do you really grade yourself and others in this way? What grade do you give yourself? Are you getting an A? Even in full communion with the Church you are in danger of hell and even without it someone can be saved.

I am not comparing myself to anyone. We are talking about how to deal with people who find themselves, through their own actions, in situations that are ongoing impediments to their salvation.

You are only trying, I am only trying, each of us is falling so very short of the ideal. This is one of the main things I learned from Catholicism, especially when reading of the saints. We are all so very far from the ideal. We have to be very careful not to become the Sadducee’s and Pharisees of our day.

It’s amazing how frequently people here accuse others who disagree with them of being pharisees.

Again the Church is just trying to come up with a general tone that leads the most people to Christ, and that loses the least people. Individual pastoral care and instruction and all of the subtleties and differences of situation have to be taken into account.

I watched, from the outside, the death of the Episcopal church after it was taken over by gays and lesbians under the guise of “pastoral care”. Pastoral care is fine as long as it doesn’t mean that we’ll bend the rules for people to make them feel better.

I don’t think you can be partly in adultery. Either you are, or you are not. If you are, through an irregular remarriage, you have created a really hard situation to solve. BUT, it’s not about reception of the sacraments. It’s about salvation.

 

[franklinstower]

franklinstower in red

I am not comparing myself to anyone. We are talking about how to deal with people who find themselves, through their own actions, in situations that are ongoing impediments to their salvation.

Yes and no – read my re-post. I can tell you are sincere and devout but you many not be able to relate to and appreciate a large segment of the population who are not in full communion with the Church.

It is through their own actions often due to years of being raised very poorly as I mentioned. It is often not what people think it is.

It’s amazing how frequently people here accuse others who disagree with them of being pharisees.

I said we and I meant it I am sorry if it did not come across well. It is still relevant…

I watched, from the outside, the death of the Episcopal church after it was taken over by gays and lesbians under the guise of “pastoral care”. Pastoral care is fine as long as it doesn’t mean that we’ll bend the rules for people to make them feel better.

I don’t think you can be partly in adultery. Either you are, or you are not. If you are, through an irregular remarriage, you have created a really hard situation to solve. BUT, it’s not about reception of the sacraments. It’s about salvation.

Agreed on sacrament for the Catholic Church-- but not nearly enough attention is given from Christian communities to provide for the salvation of so very many… It is tragic.

Some people are entrenched in sin due to long term physical abuse, sexual abuse, being raised and interacted with by people who were on drugs or alcoholic, domestic violence modeled as a norm ,being raised by people with mental illness, psychological abuse etc. the effects and behaviors of all of this can last for generations…

The degree to which dysfunction and sin are entrenched in the minds, and emotional states of a significant percentage of the population has to be taken into account. It is a long process of healing for many and broken relationships, profound confusion, deep seated feelings of shame and guilt, repressed anger and pain, are all a part of what some so callously view as “sinful behavior” on the part of “them’”

For these people, a large segment of the “sinful” population, a deep need for acceptance, love, and guidance, over a long period of time is what is needed to undo the damage done and learn a new way. Years are needed, and the deepest pain and wounding and associated sin often comes up late in the process. Many do not seem to be finding the spiritual direction and community needed for this at the local parish and are leaving and going to places where they can. I think that is very sad, and a great failure on the part of religion.

 

[PaulinVA]

franklinstower in red

Agreed on sacrament for the Catholic Church-- but not nearly enough attention is given from Christian communities to provide for the salvation of so very many… It is tragic.

For these people, a large segment of the “sinful” population, a deep need for acceptance, love, and guidance, over a long period of time is what is needed to undo the damage done and learn a new way. Years are needed, and the deepest pain and wounding and associated sin often comes up late in the process. Many do not seem to be finding the spiritual direction and community needed for this at the local parish and are leaving and going to places where they can. I think that is very sad, and a great failure on the part of religion.

But, what is love and acceptance? That is at the heart of the discussions/arguments about reception of the Eucharist. How do we, as a Church, provide love and acceptance while refusing the sacraments to people in irregular marriages?

I agree that love and acceptance is important. How do we do that without denying doctrine?

 

[LongingSoul]

But, what is love and acceptance? That is at the heart of the discussions/arguments about reception of the Eucharist. How do we, as a Church, provide love and acceptance while refusing the sacraments to people in irregular marriages?

I agree that love and acceptance is important. How do we do that without denying doctrine?

For one, that is the reasoning behind the ‘penitential path’. So for instance while at the moment the sacramental moment begins and ends within the couple of minutes in the confessional. If the sacrament could be expanded to include the first sign of desire for reconciliation in a walk towards communion, perhaps the grace of the sacrament could be a tremendous aid in that journey. When I think about the people I know who could benefit from this, I feel really hopeful. Especially so if someone were to die in this state of the penitential walk, cooperating with grace.

 

[Usige]

For one, that is the reasoning behind the ‘penitential path’. So for instance while at the moment the sacramental moment begins and ends within the couple of minutes in the confessional. If the sacrament could be expanded to include the first sign of desire for reconciliation in a walk towards communion, perhaps the grace of the sacrament could be a tremendous aid in that journey. When I think about the people I know who could benefit from this, I feel really hopeful. Especially so if someone were to die in this state of the penitential walk, cooperating with grace.

But wouldn’t that be a change in doctrinal understanding? We’ve heard on multiple occasions that this synod would not result in doctrinal changes.

 

[franklinstower]

But, what is love and acceptance? That is at the heart of the discussions/arguments about reception of the Eucharist. How do we, as a Church, provide love and acceptance while refusing the sacraments to people in irregular marriages?

I agree that love and acceptance is important. How do we do that without denying doctrine?

If it were up to me communion would be available for many who are in mortal sin-- I think that Catholic Church made a grave error in setting this doctrine and it cant ever be undone. I realize it is not up to me so I try to never argue about it on this site. I want to be very respectful of Catholic teaching while I am here.

On the other hand I was and am shocked at the lack of spiritual support and guidance offered in the Catholic Church. Ultimately this is what caused me to leave the Catholic faith. I have been involved in spiritual communities that do so much better that there really is not any comparison, it is night and day, and you cant not see the lack after seeing the abundance elsewhere. This critique is bigger than the synod in question however but it does involve it.

Part of the problem as I see it is from cradle Catholics. I mean the good ones that were raised catholic, never strayed all that far, went to school, married had children and really didn’t get involved in any real sin. This group seems to be very naive about the nature of deep sin, how it comes about, and how to heal it. I sometimes get the feeling that they think people that are out there sinning are just enjoying the world and don’t want to live a moral life. You cant win the trust and confidence of most people this way.

This is a very inadequate concept of sin and the causes of sin. Sin is deep seated and the seeds of it are often sown early in childhood, before conscious memory even, and then reinforced by powerful models of sinful behavior, abuse neglect etc. I don’t think many people who have not walked this path realize how deeply the kinds of things I’ve been talking about warp the mind and heart of people before it becomes a matter of will for them. Again it can take a long time for someone with this kind of deep sin in their life to heal and come around to be able to. There are more people like this than you think, raised by addicts or alcoholics, physical abusers, sexual abusers, by people with mental illness, by narcissists, or raised by people who were raised by people like this who don’t have addiction or mental illness but who were profoundly effected by those that were.

The only people equipped to help change the hearts and minds of people caught up in this sometimes tragic generational lifestyle are those who have walked and are walking a deep path of transformation. I see in the saints, and in the contemplatives, the very best hope for these people, but often that help is frustrated by a church so rigid that the sinner never comes, or does not stay. If they do stay there are not enough people with the intensity of spirituality and transformation to be qualified and ***available ***to really take the person under their wing and show them the way of Gods healing.

Again I see this as a profound sin of omission on the part of Christians but somehow outsourced onto the sinner in need of help.

 

[JimG]

For one, that is the reasoning behind the ‘penitential path’. So for instance while at the moment the sacramental moment begins and ends within the couple of minutes in the confessional. If the sacrament could be expanded to include the first sign of desire for reconciliation in a walk towards communion, perhaps the grace of the sacrament could be a tremendous aid in that journey. When I think about the people I know who could benefit from this, I feel really hopeful. Especially so if someone were to die in this state of the penitential walk, cooperating with grace.

It sounds like you might want to restore the Order of Penitents. But those in the order of penitents were engaged in formal penance for a period of several years, and could not receive communion during that period. Only after the penitential period and sacramental reconciliation were they then able to receive the Eucharist. It might be something that would be useful, but it would certainly not satisfy those who wish for an immediate ability to receive communion without reconciliation. And it would still require the remedy of changing any objectively sinful continuing lifestyle.

 

[PaulinVA]

For one, that is the reasoning behind the ‘penitential path’. So for instance while at the moment the sacramental moment begins and ends within the couple of minutes in the confessional. If the sacrament could be expanded to include the first sign of desire for reconciliation in a walk towards communion, perhaps the grace of the sacrament could be a tremendous aid in that journey. When I think about the people I know who could benefit from this, I feel really hopeful. Especially so if someone were to die in this state of the penitential walk, cooperating with grace.

Either you are in a state of sin or you are not. It might take some people quite a while to resolve their sinful condition(remarriage with new children), but isn’t it binary?

Are you saying that people should get credit for* effort*? That’s a change, isn’t it?

 

[PaulinVA]

Part of the problem as I see it is from cradle Catholics. I mean the good ones that were raised catholic, never strayed all that far, went to school, married had children and really didn’t get involved in any real sin. This group seems to be very naive about the nature of deep sin, how it comes about, and how to heal it. I sometimes get the feeling that they think people that are out there sinning are just enjoying the world and don’t want to live a moral life. You cant win the trust and confidence of most people this way.

This is a very interesting and enlightening post.

After Vatican II, the Church (and Mass) became much more of a community event. Previously, I get the impression that Catholicism was much more of a solitary religion. I think we have gone overboard with the community aspect, to the detriment of the individual.

Philippians 2:12 says: So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

We are each responsible for our own salvation. As the parables of the prodigal son and the vineyard owner who pays everyone the same no matter when they started conveys, I should not begrudge people who work out their salvation later in life after a life of sin. I get that.

But, the burden is on the individual, isn’t it? I am a cradle Catholic, married a girl I met in college, have four kids, a house, etc, but I know sin. I also am aware of the bad decisions that people make, and how a rejection of the Church in the past makes reconciliation harder now.

Interesting question you raise about gaining people’s trust and confidence. How much of returning and regularization and reconciliation is up to the person, and how much is up to the Church?

 

[Thomas_White]

This is a very interesting and enlightening post.

After Vatican II, the Church (and Mass) became much more of a community event. Previously, I get the impression that Catholicism was much more of a solitary religion. I think we have gone overboard with the community aspect, to the detriment of the individual.

Philippians 2:12 says: So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

As a cradle Catholic who attended Catholic schools and was taught religion by members of religious orders and who came of age in the pre-Vatican II era, I agree. As an adult, I witnessed the implementation of Vatican II and the struggles during its implementation as the Church attempted to come to terms with the modern world. There was a spiritual refocus toward external acts and to the temporal world, with the Liturgical Movement a certain factor. It was a paradigm shift, broadly, from an interior spirituality to an external form. This is manifest in the modern world, and Laudato Si speaks very much about it.

We are each responsible for our own salvation. As the parables of the prodigal son and the vineyard owner who pays everyone the same no matter when they started conveys, I should not begrudge people who work out their salvation later in life after a life of sin. I get that.

But, the burden is on the individual, isn’t it? I am a cradle Catholic, married a girl I met in college, have four kids, a house, etc, but I know sin. I also am aware of the bad decisions that people make, and how a rejection of the Church in the past makes reconciliation harder now.

St. Augustine, a Father of the Church, is a prime example of a person who worked out their salvation later in life by discernment, in the process developing his own understanding that today is pointed to in support of doctrine. The Catholicism we were taught very much focused on a person’s responsibility for their own salvation, and shifting blame elsewhere was considered a serious fault. It is now an age of analysis and supposed objectivity, and I have wondered if some cradle Catholics of today, who came of age following Vatican II, have this objective outlook. It seems there is an overreliance on an objective understanding of doctrine that in my view impedes spiritual growth by an either/or perspective where one (perhaps unwittingly) attempts to avoid personal responsibility. It results in judgmentalism, I think, if not a new fundamentalism (an outlook never accepted by the Church), and a continuous pointing toward the supposed faults of others as though it were necessary to reinforce one’s belief. This is not a correct understanding of CatholicIsm. The truth is that the Church has always changed and doctrine itself has evolved to its present conception.
PaulinVA=13351008:

Interesting question you raise about gaining people’s trust and confidence. How much of returning and regularization and reconciliation is up to the person, and how much is up to the Church?

The Church, at least in a bygone era, provided a formation and catechesis that helped enable a person to discern right from wrong in a temporal world of change. CatholicIsm is complex and has a two-thousand year period of development, and It would seem what has gone awry is an attempt to find a fixed and absolute point in time from which a person could learn absolute truth, and I think this would also be true for some who grew up in the pre-Vatican II Church and who resist or reject Vatican II. Fortunately, St. Augustine was not of like mind. There is no doubt that in the end each person is ultimately responsible for their own salvation.

 

[franklinstower]

I want to say so much about all of this but am not sure where to begin. I will have to post later when I am home. There is something profoundly wrong and shortsighted about the general attitude of Christians on the subject of how much service is required of us for others.
I have been shown a better way that leads to more life, love, power and intimacy with God not only for others but also secondarily for me and my family.

Suffice it to say-- if you jump in now in service of humanity, with vigour, you become empowered by God to do so in such a way that you taste much of heaven now in this life. There are no words for the beauty of it. Not knowing this is profound poverty of spirit. Its not how much do we have to do-- its how much do we get to do.

 

[LongingSoul]

It sounds like you might want to restore the Order of Penitents. But those in the order of penitents were engaged in formal penance for a period of several years, and could not receive communion during that period. Only after the penitential period and sacramental reconciliation were they then able to receive the Eucharist. It might be something that would be useful, but it would certainly not satisfy those who wish for an immediate ability to receive communion without reconciliation. And it would still require the remedy of changing any objectively sinful continuing lifestyle.

It’s the suggestion that’s been put forward for examination by Cardinal Kasper that would lead to reception of Communion eventually for some in the situation. It isn’t a challenge to the Churchs teaching on the indissolubility of sacramental marriage, but a way for those who believe in their heart that their first sacramental marriage wasn’t valid, to put right with God a situation which can’t be put right by the current Church juridical practice.

 

[LongingSoul]

Either you are in a state of sin or you are not. It might take some people quite a while to resolve their sinful condition(remarriage with new children), but isn’t it binary?

Are you saying that people should get credit for* effort*? That’s a change, isn’t it?

Not ‘credit for effort’ as the sacraments aren’t a reward for the good, they are a medicine for the sick. I imagine the penitential path as affording someone who has the desire to be right in the eyes of God, at least the crumbs from the table of the sacramental economy for their healing journey. It evokes the time when a Caananite woman wanted Jesus to heal her daughter and he at first refused,

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment. - Matt15

 

[LongingSoul]

But wouldn’t that be a change in doctrinal understanding? We’ve heard on multiple occasions that this synod would not result in doctrinal changes.

That’s what the theologians are for. Testing what part of any suggestion serves the immutable truth and what doesn’t.