Archbishop Chaput sees 'subtle hopelessness' in message of Synod working document [CC]

[LongingSoul]

Part of the problem as I see it is from cradle Catholics. I mean the good ones that were raised catholic, never strayed all that far, went to school, married had children and really didn’t get involved in any real sin. This group seems to be very naive about the nature of deep sin, how it comes about, and how to heal it. I sometimes get the feeling that they think people that are out there sinning are just enjoying the world and don’t want to live a moral life. You cant win the trust and confidence of most people this way.

I would say that is very true and it is possible to live isolated from modern life while being part of it if that makes sense. Although I’m cradle Catholic and haven’t strayed much from the beaten path of my family before me, I worked for 10 years with a Catholic counselling organisation and from my experience on the perimeters of that, I got to see the raw reality of the messes that people live with… some of their own doing but much not. I can really understand the mantra the Church has used over the last few years of ‘meeting people where they are at’.

The flip side of things is that when you have been given the gift of belief in sacramental grace to the point where you don’t know how you could ever live without them… you actually feel pain for others who you can tell would be 10 times more worthy then yourself if they had been given the same gift of faith and opportunity to know God that you had. That’s why I feel that a persons true desire for life in the Church has to be treated with the highest importance despite their unworthiness.

 

[PaulinVA]

Not ‘credit for effort’ as the sacraments aren’t a reward for the good, they are a medicine for the sick. I imagine the penitential path as affording someone who has the desire to be right in the eyes of God, at least the crumbs from the table of the sacramental economy for their healing journey. It evokes the time when a Caananite woman wanted Jesus to heal her daughter and he at first refused,

It’s really quite simple.
Does one need to be free from mortal sin to receive the Eucharist?
Is having ongoing marital relations while in an irregular second/third marriage adultery?
These are situations that need to be resolved. Separate bedrooms with no marital relations. Full separation.

I understand what you are saying but I don’t get it. I don’t see how our theology supports it.

 

[JimG]

It’s the suggestion that’s been put forward for examination by Cardinal Kasper that would lead to reception of Communion eventually for some in the situation. It isn’t a challenge to the Churchs teaching on the indissolubility of sacramental marriage, but a way for those who believe in their heart that their first sacramental marriage wasn’t valid, to put right with God a situation which can’t be put right by the current Church juridical practice.

It seems to me that if they are certain that their first marriage was not valid, then they don’t need a penitential process; they need a declaration of nullity. If the declaration of nullity can not be obtained for whatever reason, there might be a basis for an “internal forum” solution.

The penitential process seems to be telling the person, “yes, we believe you when you say that you’re first marriage was invalid, so we’re going to ignore that first marriage; but first you must do penance.” If the marriage is in fact invalid, why the penance?

Or even worse, the penitential process might be saying to them. “We don’t know if your first marriage was valid or not, but we’re going to ignore it anyway, provided you do this penance.”

 

[Rau]

It seems to me that if they are certain that their first marriage was not valid, then they don’t need a penitential process; they need a declaration of nullity. If the declaration of nullity can not be obtained for whatever reason, there might be a basis for an “internal forum” solution.

The penitential process seems to be telling the person, “yes, we believe you when you say that you’re first marriage was invalid, so we’re going to ignore that first marriage; but first you must do penance.” If the marriage is in fact invalid, why the penance?

Or even worse, the penitential process might be saying to them. “We don’t know if your first marriage was valid or not, but we’re going to ignore it anyway, provided you do this penance.”

A further complexity, worth pondering, is the limited capacity (fallibility) of a tribunal to correctly determine validity in every case. And yet the decision of that process is the final arbiter of how the remarried may fit into the Church.

In general, the Church has no means to filter who may receive communion, but the current reliance placed on the tribunal, the belief that its conclusions are definitive, creates a means to filter potential adulterers. I wonder whether the Church should be doing that?

 

[PaulinVA]

A further complexity, worth pondering, is the limited capacity (fallibility) of a tribunal to correctly determine validity in every case. And yet the decision of that process is the final arbiter of how the remarried may fit into the Church.

In general, the Church has no means to filter who may receive communion, but the current reliance placed on the tribunal, the belief that its conclusions are definitive, creates a means to filter potential adulterers. I wonder whether the Church should be doing that?

Well, the issue there is that it doesn’t matter if a person thinks their first marriage was not valid. It is presumed valid until the tribunal rules it was not.

That is the problem with trying to circumvent the rules/canon law to be nice to people. You end up ignoring a lot and confusing people.

 

[Rau]

Well, the issue there is that it doesn’t matter if a person thinks their first marriage was not valid. It is presumed valid until the tribunal rules it was not.

Yes, those are the rules, I know. I just point out the consequences that are then attached to that fallible tribunal determination.

 

[Thomas_White]

Yes, those are the rules, I know. I just point out the consequences that are then attached to that fallible tribunal determination.

A marriage tribunal judges the validity of a sacrament, and if it errs there are surely consequences for it, both for the person and for the tribunal that judges.

“For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given to the Son also to have life in himself: and he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is the Son of man.” (John 5:26-27)

 

[LongingSoul]

It seems to me that if they are certain that their first marriage was not valid, then they don’t need a penitential process; they need a declaration of nullity. If the declaration of nullity can not be obtained for whatever reason, there might be a basis for an “internal forum” solution.

The penitential process seems to be telling the person, “yes, we believe you when you say that you’re first marriage was invalid, so we’re going to ignore that first marriage; but first you must do penance.” If the marriage is in fact invalid, why the penance?

Or even worse, the penitential process might be saying to them. “We don’t know if your first marriage was valid or not, but we’re going to ignore it anyway, provided you do this penance.”

There can be an overall recognition of ones past as being lived outside of Gods law, that has resulted in a messy, difficult situation. What does one do with that desire to repent of it?

Africa has situations of marriage created in an ungodly (but cultural) past life, that they have deal with outside of the strict Church process. For example polygamy. This is described here by an African bishop…

*Bishop Matthew Kwasi Gyamfi of Sunyani, Ghana said on Friday morning that, "In some parts of Africa because of the culture and tradition of the people before the Church was introduced, many African women find themselves in polygamous marriages through no fault of theirs.”

According to Bishop Gyamfi, this situation means that “many of the women attending church are denied the Sacraments of Initiation, Reconciliation and Marriage.”

The bishop pointed out that this treatment is unjust and has damaging effects for those women who were “first wives with children” of polygamous marriages. “The Church needs to address this painful and unpleasant situation in Africa by giving some special privileges to women, who have been the first wives with children and through no fault of their own have become victims of polygamous marriages, to receive the Sacraments of Initiation and others,” he said.

If these “sorely tried women” are allowed to receive the Sacraments, Bishop Gyamfi said that they will be able to “share in the peace and reconciliation offered by the compassion and peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ Who came to call sinners and not the self righteous.”* catholicnewsagency.com/news/synod_for_africa_ponders_how_to_tackle_polygamy_meddling_by_foreign_interests/

One of the ways that the modern phenomenon of divorce within Catholic marriage has been thought of is that sacraments can be celebrated without faith today. When the whole culture doesn’t support the indissolubility of marriage, it’s possible that being so inculturated, young people today often can’t make a valid consent for the sacrament.

 

[franklinstower]

This is a very interesting and enlightening post.

After Vatican II, the Church (and Mass) became much more of a community event. Previously, I get the impression that Catholicism was much more of a solitary religion. I think we have gone overboard with the community aspect, to the detriment of the individual.

Philippians 2:12 says: So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

We are each responsible for our own salvation. As the parables of the prodigal son and the vineyard owner who pays everyone the same no matter when they started conveys, I should not begrudge people who work out their salvation later in life after a life of sin. I get that.

But, the burden is on the individual, isn’t it? I am a cradle Catholic, married a girl I met in college, have four kids, a house, etc, but I know sin. I also am aware of the bad decisions that people make, and how a rejection of the Church in the past makes reconciliation harder now.

Interesting question you raise about gaining people’s trust and confidence. How much of returning and regularization and reconciliation is up to the person, and how much is up to the Church?

The only answer I can give is to share my experience. I know many people (like I have been discussing) who were unable to get the help they needed within the Catholic faith, at least not by the priests they knew or the people in their parish. They slipped through the cracks and ended up in other alternative spiritual communities *where they were given the attention and help they needed, often by lay people who were willing to spend the time it takes to help them. *

It comes down to a concept that in my ignorance I struggle to find Catholic language for. *** Please bear with me.*** In some protestant circles there is a born again type of experience that is radical dramatic and permanently life changing. These types of experiences completely rearrange someones entire orientation to life emotionally, psychologically and spiritually. These experiences can also happen more gradually over a period of time.

I don’t know what they are universally called in the Catholic Church except to say that people within the church, monks and nuns, contemplatives, and saints experience*** many of these over a lifetime.*** This is not an exaggeration and they are described quite well by some of the saints, Teresa of Avila being one of them. Multiple awakenings like this are not* typically* found in protestant circles-- I believe mostly because of the lack of the contemplative dimensions of prayer in many of those systems. Without help and guidance these experiences are very rare-- with it they are much, much more common.

The kind of people I am talking about, and there are many, can only be healed by these types of spiritual transformations. One of these might make them able to stay out of mortal sin for the most part. More than one would be better and heal them at a much deeper level and make them able not to pass on a good amount of generational suffering to their children and in relationships with others. If the true Church cannot pass these on effectively, and as a matter of course-- what good is it really? And what good are “good” Catholics if they haven’t been through these and/or are to busy to pass them on?

Can someone be blamed for not believing in Christ or Catholicism, or leaving even if they do believe, if they find greater aid and love and help elsewhere? Help that does heal the deep wounds and make them able not to sin? Ultimately I think this notion of mortal sin and communion is deeply sinful and harmful itself, to a large segment of the population-- when the needed spiritual help is not given for correcting it.

Where are the keepers of these lost brothers and sisters? Where are the people who were raised well, but who worked hard, went to God in deep ways, underwent deep transformation, who now view the good upbringing they had as a kind of poverty? Where are these people who have been through multiple awakenings, who know the great difficulty involved because they have done it, and who now want to help pass it on to others?

When I entered into Catholicism I expected to meet many priests and lay people who were qualified and willing to do this for others, as had already been done for me elsewhere, and also within the Catholic Church from a certain monk. I did not find what I was hoping would be there. Many do not, and in place of love and compassion they experience cold detachment and misunderstanding.

 

[graciew]

franklinstower:
The only answer I can give is to share my experience. I know many people (like I have been discussing) who were unable to get the help they needed within the Catholic faith, at least not by the priests they knew or the people in their parish. They slipped through the cracks and ended up in other alternative spiritual communities *where they were given the attention and help they needed, often by lay people who were willing to spend the time it takes to help them. *

It comes down to a concept that in my ignorance I struggle to find Catholic language for. *** Please bear with me.*** In some protestant circles there is a born again type of experience that is radical dramatic and permanently life changing. These types of experiences completely rearrange someones entire orientation to life emotionally, psychologically and spiritually. These experiences can also happen more gradually over a period of time.

I don’t know what they are universally called in the Catholic Church except to say that people within the church, monks and nuns, contemplatives, and saints experience*** many of these over a lifetime.*** This is not an exaggeration and they are described quite well by some of the saints, Teresa of Avila being one of them. Multiple awakenings like this are not* typically* found in protestant circles-- I believe mostly because of the lack of the contemplative dimensions of prayer in many of those systems. Without help and guidance these experiences are very rare-- with it they are much, much more common.

The kind of people I am talking about, and there are many, can only be healed by these types of spiritual transformations. One of these might make them able to stay out of mortal sin for the most part. More than one would be better and heal them at a much deeper level and make them able not to pass on a good amount of generational suffering to their children and in relationships with others. If the true Church cannot pass these on effectively, and as a matter of course-- what good is it really? And what good are “good” Catholics if they haven’t been through these and/or are to busy to pass them on?

Can someone be blamed for not believing in Christ or Catholicism, or leaving even if they do believe, if they find greater aid and love and help elsewhere? Help that does heal the deep wounds and make them able not to sin? Ultimately I think this notion of mortal sin and communion is deeply sinful and harmful itself, to a large segment of the population-- when the needed spiritual help is not given for correcting it.

Where are the keepers of these lost brothers and sisters? Where are the people who were raised well, but who worked hard, went to God in deep ways, underwent deep transformation, who now view the good upbringing they had as a kind of poverty? Where are these people who have been through multiple awakenings, who know the great difficulty involved because they have done it, and who now want to help pass it on to others?

When I entered into Catholicism I expected to meet many priests and lay people who were qualified and willing to do this for others, as had already been done for me elsewhere, and also within the Catholic Church from a certain monk. I did not find what I was hoping would be there. Many do not, and in place of love and compassion they experience cold detachment and misunderstanding.

Bear with me too , Franklin.This is my second language.
First , Teresa of Avila can understand us. She was reluctant to writing what she had experienced in her prayer life and her writing in Spanish is so specially hers.
Have you read The interior Castle ? I do not know what you mean by these awakenings ,sorry…, but Teresa does say that these favors( I think she calls them favors) is not sth we are to be looking for . In fact I remember she sends one of the nuns to sweep the floor when she got confused. ( I guess I felt identified with that nun but because of the broom !).
I am sorry you could not find understanding …
Just that you mentioned Teresa .and there are awsome saints in our Church.
Could it be that you had idealized or imagined the Church a bit in the sense that you did.not really know Her ?
Maybe She is just a better version than you thought

 

[franklinstower]

Bear with me too , Franklin.This is my second language.
First , Teresa of Avila can understand us. She was reluctant to writing what she had experienced in her prayer life and her writing in Spanish is so specially hers.
Have you read The interior Castle ? I do not know what you mean by these awakenings ,sorry…, but Teresa does say that these favors( I think she calls them favors) is not sth we are to be looking for . In fact I remember she sends one of the nuns to sweep the floor when she got confused. ( I guess I felt identified with that nun but because of the broom !).
I am sorry you could not find understanding …
Just that you mentioned Teresa .and there are awsome saints in our Church.
Could it be that you had idealized the Church a bit in the sense that you did.not really know Her ?

I could have used many other non mystical examples from the Catholic Church. The point is that spiritual transformation can and does heal deep psychological emotional and spiritual wounds. It doesn’t matter if they come about through mystical experience or not. The monk I work with helps people transform along these lines in non mystical ways.

 

[graciew]

I could have used many other non mystical examples from the Catholic Church. The point is that spiritual transformation can and does heal deep psychological emotional and spiritual wounds. It doesn’t matter if they come about through mystical experience or not. The monk I work with helps people transform along these lines in non mystical ways.

What does non mystical ways mean ?

 

[franklinstower]

What does non mystical ways mean ?

A monk at the monastery I visit described all of this in detail. Basically he speaks of two ways into a high degree of intimacy with God, one is mystical and one is not, one has many spiritual favors along the way, and the other does not. He says that both paths lead to the same degree of love in the end. The problem is that the language used to describe all of this seems to be varied within the Catholic Church so there is often confusion of terms. The point is that God can and does heal people at deep levels but usually it happens along with solid spiritual guidance from a spiritual adviser.

 

[graciew]

A monk at the monastery I visit described all of this in detail. Basically he speaks of two ways into a high degree of intimacy with God, one is mystical and one is not, one has many spiritual favors along the way, and the other does not. He says that both paths lead to the same degree of love in the end. The problem is that the language used to describe all of this seems to be varied within the Catholic Church so there is often confusion of terms. The point is that God can and does heal people at deep levels but usually it happens along with solid spiritual guidance from a spiritual adviser.

Thank you for explaining.
God can and heals people and it does make me glad you are experiencing healing. God knows what we need and loves us so much.

 

[franklinstower]

Thank you for explaining.
God can and heals people and it does make me glad you are experiencing healing. God knows what we need and loves us so much.

That is true isn’t it.

When I asked what good is the true church in my earlier post I meant it only for that community of people who need deep spiritual help but are slipping through the cracks. I am convinced and deeply aware of the great force for good on this planet that the Catholic Church is. I will be forever in the debt of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church and any good I do in the world is only because of the massive body of saints and disciples and members of the body of Christ who have gone before, who have left their guidance and love for us all to follow.

I want to be careful not to ever understate this fact even if I have my critiques. I could not run a church any better-- and that is for sure.

 

[Thomas_White]

A monk at the monastery I visit described all of this in detail. Basically he speaks of two ways into a high degree of intimacy with God, one is mystical and one is not, one has many spiritual favors along the way, and the other does not. He says that both paths lead to the same degree of love in the end. The problem is that the language used to describe all of this seems to be varied within the Catholic Church so there is often confusion of terms. The point is that God can and does heal people at deep levels but usually it happens along with solid spiritual guidance from a spiritual adviser.

It is perhaps the differing experience of the Tridentine Mass and the new OF Mass; it could also be said it is the difference between works and prayer. The charismatic born again experience is different but isn’t the same thing as the mysticism of St. Teresa of Avila or Thomas Merton either.

The mystical experience, accessible by prayer and contemplation, is transcendent of the dualities of the temporal world and also of the limits of the intellect and human reason and understanding. As such, and though many have tried, there are no words to adequately describe the experience. Notions of good and evil and questions of who should or should not receive communion become meaningless, but it is very difficult to explain why. To even attempt to do so will surely result in all sorts of dispute and even condemnation in the temporal world of black and white, true and false. It is questionable to try and would likely do more harm than good. But everything that has ever happened or ever will happen has already happened in the eternal present that IS outside of space and time, and continuously happens throughout eternity–in the way it always was, is now and ever shall BE. Yet there are those who know but do not know. One can only try to wrap one’s head around that.

I know very little about the born again experience other than it is said to concern the Holy Spirit. This is not a confusion of terms but something different.

 

[franklinstower]

It is perhaps the differing experience of the Tridentine Mass and the new OF Mass; it could also be said it is the difference between works and prayer. ***The charismatic born again experience is different but isn’t the same thing as the mysticism of St. Teresa of Avila or Thomas Merton either. ***

The mystical experience, accessible by prayer and contemplation, is transcendent of the dualities of the temporal world and also of the limits of the intellect and human reason and understanding. As such, and though many have tried, there are no words to adequately describe the experience. ***Notions of good and evil and questions of who should or should not receive communion become meaningless, but it is very difficult to explain why. ***To even attempt to do so will surely result in all sorts of dispute and even condemnation in the temporal world of black and white, true and false. It is questionable to try and would likely do more harm than good. But everything that has ever happened or ever will happen has already happened in the eternal present that IS outside of space and time, and continuously happens throughout eternity–in the way it always was, is now and ever shall BE. Yet there are those who know but do not know. One can only try to wrap one’s head around that.

I know very little about the born again experience other than it is said to concern the Holy Spirit. This is not a confusion of terms but something different.

I realize the born again experience is not identical to any one particular experience had by Teresa and many others, just as it is not the exact same thing as the spiritual awakening spoken of in 12 step programs of both varieties, the very quick mystical type and the more common educational variety, just as it is not the exact same thing as what the Hindus or Buddhists experience. But for the purposes of this discussion it is the similarities of effects that are produced that I was referring to.

Generally speaking these types of experiences (weather they happen quickly or slowly) all bring about a deep and permanent shift in a persons consciousness. Long held attitudes and emotional states are permanently changed for the better, a deep purification of negativity and tendency towards sin is removed.

Mostly I brought this topic up because it seems unfair to me to condemn people for being in certain kinds of sin, deeply wounded people, without having a community that is capable and willing to lead people through these kinds of purification’s. It seems very callous in comparison to other approaches I have witnessed.

I have a question for you about the views you expressed about sin and right and wrong in relation to these experiences. I was surprised to hear these views and perspectives expressed on a Catholic forum, by a Catholic. Would you care to comment?

 

[Thomas_White]

I have a question for you about the views you expressed about sin and right and wrong in relation to these experiences. I was surprised to hear these views and perspectives expressed on a Catholic forum, by a Catholic. Would you care to comment?

Well, with respect to that question I was referring strictly to the experience of mysticism, and I’m thinking I mentioned this is not easily understood (and really because it cannot be understood by the intellect). What is does not mean is that there is not good and evil but only that Good and Evil are concepts. In the mystical experience where duality is transcended, the concepts are no longer present. In the full sense, all concepts (as concepts anyway) are transcended and are not present. This cannot be put into words and adequately described since language also has inherent limitations–in that way, this is only open to experience.

I don’t know how to really explain it other than to say God is only good and this is not a duality of Good and Evil. Perhaps in deep contemplation while saying the Rosary, for example, one is not aware of the duality of good and evil. That is really not a good explanation but perhaps it does provide some sense of it. It is an experience open to every person, whether single, married, divorced, remarried, whatever–is that understandable, I hope?

 

[franklinstower]

Well, with respect to that question I was referring strictly to the experience of mysticism, and I’m thinking I mentioned this is not easily understood (and really because it cannot be understood by the intellect). What is does not mean is that there is not good and evil but only that Good and Evil are concepts. In the mystical experience where duality is transcended, the concepts are no longer present. In the full sense, all concepts (as concepts anyway) are transcended and are not present. This cannot be put into words and adequately described since language also has inherent limitations–in that way, this is only open to experience.

I don’t know how to really explain it other than to say God is only good and this is not a duality of Good and Evil. Perhaps in deep contemplation while saying the Rosary, for example, one is not aware of the duality of good and evil. That is really not a good explanation but perhaps it does provide some sense of it. It is an experience open to every person, whether single, married, divorced, remarried, whatever–is that understandable, I hope?

I was hoping you would say the first part of your post that I put in bold. In certain alternative communities that I used to be involved in this concept was taken to far and the reality of good and evil was not accepted and that led to all sorts of immoral and harmful behavior in the name of transcendence…

The second part is very interesting to me-- how do you reconcile that with Church teaching on morality and mortal sin separating one from God? not that I am reading to much into one sentence you’ve written. The monk I go see does a lot to help improve peoples understanding of the “accuracy” of mystical experience- that ones life can be more or less in harmony with it. He speaks of the early mystical experiences that God gives a person as being there to get your attention, bring you to a deep conversion and make you willing to go through necessary purification and difficulties to enter more deeply into Christ and the Trinity. This purification then leads to deeper more permanent penetrations into the mystery of God- more intimacy.

 

[Thomas_White]

franklinstower:
I was hoping you would say the first part of your post that I put in bold. In certain alternative communities that I used to be involved in this concept was taken to far and the reality of good and evil was not accepted and that led to all sorts of immoral and harmful behavior in the name of transcendence…

The second part is very interesting to me-- how do you reconcile that with Church teaching on morality and mortal sin separating one from God? not that I am reading to much into one sentence you’ve written. The monk I go see does a lot to help improve peoples understanding of the “accuracy” of mystical experience- that ones life can be more or less in harmony with it. He speaks of the early mystical experiences that God gives a person as being there to get your attention, bring you to a deep conversion and make you willing to go through necessary purification and difficulties to enter more deeply into Christ and the Trinity. This purification then leads to deeper more permanent penetrations into the mystery of God- more intimacy.