Archbishop Flynn wants higher taxes

[Lisa_N]

Philip P:

I think it’s less. A wealthy person who abuses drugs and engages in premarital and extramartial sex can still be fabulously successful. And if their personal problems start to impede on their material well-being, money can cover up their problems or help pay for treatment. A poor person who abuses drugs and is sexually irresponsible suffers far more. A poor person who works hard and is sexually responsible is also likely never to be as successful as the wealth drug abusing skirt chaser. That is not an equal playing field.

Philip you have fallen into two traps. One is that you equate success with FINANCIAL success only. You are right a wealthy drug abusing skirt chaser has more money than a sexually responsible poor person. So how does that relate to the subject at hand? You are merely stating facts and falling into the “money means success” trap.

Second you equate ability to DEAL with a problem as defining the unequal playing field. My point is that whether or not someone engages in self destructive behavior is virtually always an individual act of will. A poor person or a rich person can decide whether or not to use drugs, engage in promiscuous sex or drop out of high school. Once they have made this bad decision, indeed the rich person has more resources to deal with the resulting problems. But the initial act is always someone’s personal responsibility.

Realistically, someone born to a single mom who is uneducated, unemployable and stoned much of the time is quite unlikely to make good decisions. This child really doesn’t have a chance and IMO the focus should be on breaking the cycle through the children and getting THEM on the right foot. But our schools are no longer allowed to teach ‘civics’ and certainly any religion is prohibited. Schools won’t allow Boy Scouts on campus. The secular culture is now reaping what it sowed in removing positive influences from schools.

Lisa N

 

[Philip_P]

buffalo:

Deserves? Isn’t a quality education a privelege?

No!
It’s a fundamental necessity for a healthy, vibrant, and strong democracy.

 

[miguel]

Lisa N:

Philip you have fallen into two traps. One is that you equate success with FINANCIAL success only. You are right a wealthy drug abusing skirt chaser has more money than a sexually responsible poor person. So how does that relate to the subject at hand? You are merely stating facts and falling into the “money means success” trap.

Second you equate ability to DEAL with a problem as defining the unequal playing field. My point is that whether or not someone engages in self destructive behavior is virtually always an individual act of will. A poor person or a rich person can decide whether or not to use drugs, engage in promiscuous sex or drop out of high school. Once they have made this bad decision, indeed the rich person has more resources to deal with the resulting problems. But the initial act is always someone’s personal responsibility.

Realistically, someone born to a single mom who is uneducated, unemployable and stoned much of the time is quite unlikely to make good decisions. This child really doesn’t have a chance and IMO the focus should be on breaking the cycle through the children and getting THEM on the right foot. But our schools are no longer allowed to teach ‘civics’ and certainly any religion is prohibited. Schools won’t allow Boy Scouts on campus. The secular culture is now reaping what it sowed in removing positive influences from schools.

Lisa N

Poverty does not excuse bad behavior. But the poor are undeniably most affected by it. But instead of trying to correct this at the source, the solution is to place the burden of all this bad behavior on those who are trying to lead productive lives. Leveling the playing field by dragging everyone else down. This is the error of socialism. It takes away the incentive of productive people to produce, thereby harming economic development and job creation…the very things the poor need to escape their poverty (aside from responsible behavior).

 

[buffalo]

Philip P:

No!
It’s a fundamental necessity for a healthy, vibrant, and strong democracy.

So a country cannot be democratic unless they have a quality education system?

 

[Lisa_N]

miguel:

Poverty does not excuse bad behavior.).

Nor are all of the poor engaged in illegal or self destructive behavior. I work with an organization that assists migrant farmworkers. These people live in absolute squalor. Yet they are not selling drugs (or taking them) or ignoring opportunities to better themselves through education. We have a program where the men come after a day in the fields to work on their English skills. They WANT an education and a better life for their families.

miguel:

But the poor are undeniably most affected by it. But instead of trying to correct this at the source, the solution is to place the burden of all this bad behavior on those who are trying to lead productive lives. Leveling the playing field by dragging everyone else down. This is the error of socialism. It takes away the incentive of productive people to produce, thereby harming economic development and job creation…the very things the poor need to escape their poverty (aside from responsible behavior).

Exactly. We ‘reward’ bad behavior by providing resources to those engaged in it yet we punish productive behavior by over taxing those who are working and trying to support their own families. They can’t do it all and that is the source of much taxpayer rebellion.

Lisa N

 

[Philip_P]

buffalo:

So a country cannot be democratic unless they have a quality education system?

It’s going to be severely impeded. When you place the power in the people, you need to make sure you’re providing the people with the resources needed to make wise decisions.

In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve. If we want good government, an educated, informed, committed citizenry is essential.

 

[miguel]

Lisa N:

Nor are all of the poor engaged in illegal or self destructive behavior. I work with an organization that assists migrant farmworkers. These people live in absolute squalor. Yet they are not selling drugs (or taking them) or ignoring opportunities to better themselves through education. We have a program where the men come after a day in the fields to work on their English skills. They WANT an education and a better life for their families.

100% agree.

 

[buffalo]

Philip P:

It’s going to be severely impeded. When you place the power in the people, you need to make sure you’re providing the people with the resources needed to make wise decisions.

In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve. If we want good government, an educated, informed, committed citizenry is essential.

Well that would be a democracy. What about a Republic?

 

[Philip_P]

buffalo:

Well that would be a democracy. What about a Republic?

Oh come on, you’re not going to pull THAT little semantic trick, are you? I’m also a bit mystified by what you’re trying to do here - pretty much everyone, conservative, liberal, or other, agrees that education is important. Not sure where you’re trying to go with this.

 

[Lisa_N]

Philip P:

It’s going to be severely impeded. When you place the power in the people, you need to make sure you’re providing the people with the resources needed to make wise decisions.

In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve. If we want good government, an educated, informed, committed citizenry is essential.

Good point. Now how do we convince people to take advantage of our free educational system as well as get the educated adults to become informed and committed? We have some schools with a very high dropout rate. Are there programs that work to keep kids in school until they graduate? How about programs that keep young girls from succumbing to pressure to become sexually active thus risking STDs and pregnancy? How do we keep people from getting involved in drugs—a lot easier than getting them clean and sober AFTER they are addicted!

I think the major problem with our entire social services system is that we treat results, instead of focusing on the critical point where a person takes that step toward self destruction. We KNOW what causes poverty in this country. It is not rocket science. Yet we spend millions supporting the people who have engaged in the very behavior that creates poverty instead of trying to prevent it. Quite honestly I think we have a lot of people who have a vested interest in a permanent underclass so that they can play Lady Bountiful and rescue them. I am sure it’s not intentional but it’s very obvious that the focus in social services is throwing a float AFTER a person dives off the bridge.

Lisa N

 

[buffalo]

Philip P:

Oh come on, you’re not going to pull THAT little semantic trick, are you? I’m also a bit mystified by what you’re trying to do here - pretty much everyone, conservative, liberal, or other, agrees that education is important. Not sure where you’re trying to go with this.

You made the point a quality education is important. You did not define quality. Quality can mean different things. One could define a quality education as a secular one. Others could define it as a life’s skills training. Others still put a premium on a quality education as the one that will get them into heaven. It really depends on what teh end game is.

In America it is “We, the people”. Who placed this power in the people? “Mother” government? Or was it people who desired to be free? What was the educational level of these people?

I agree it is important to be informed.

 

[Philip_P]

Given the pluralistic nature of our nation, it’d be nearly impossible to define a quality education in terms of helping you get to heaven. Whose heaven? The Catholic one? The Baptist one? Jewish, Muslim, a favorable reincarnation, a dissolving into nothingness? The state should foster civic values, but it’s hardly its role to push a specific set of religious tenets.

None of this means that there aren’t universally acceptable values that should be encouraged. There are. Respect for the rule of law, the affirmation of what is good in others and in others’ cultures, the desire to seek out and develop virtue. Pluralism is not the same thing as relativism. It is the affirmation of that which is universally good and true in all people, and the approach that the garment shines brightest when each individual thread is strong, rather than the watered down “tolerance” or xenophobic nativism pushed by wrongheaded partisans of the left and right.

So, with that hopefully out of the way, a few criteria for quality education:

-Literacy. The ability to read and write at a minimum level appropriate for age

-Mathematics – from basics through algebra and at least pre-calculus, again as appropriate for each grade level

-Literature – familiarity with the source texts of global society. Special attention should be paid to the Western stream, but we need to expand the curriculum to include previously ignored and overlooked voices, too (note that the emphasis is on ADDING to the Great Books, not REPLACING). I’d include political and philosophical texts here, too (i.e. Plato, Marx, Smith, Kant, Locke, Hume, etc.)

-History – Similar to literature. Neither “traditional” nor “revisionist,” but rather completeness should be the goal. Both the shortcomings and heroisms of all sides of historical events should be put forth.

-Religion/culture – perhaps most controversially, I’d read the first amendment not as discriminating against religion, but rather of welcoming it in all its variety. Schools should acknowledge Christmas…and Chanukka, and Ramadan, and other major holidays of the religious and cultural traditions that contribute to our nation.

-Civics – the ignorance of the average citizen about our own government is truly shocking.

There also ought to be opportunities for artistic and athletic exploration.

 

[miguel]

Philip P:

…I’d include political and philosophical texts here, too (i.e. Plato, Marx, Smith, Kant, Locke, Hume, etc.)

I notice you put Marx before Smith.

 

[miguel]

Lisa N:

…Quite honestly I think we have a lot of people who have a vested interest in a permanent underclass so that they can play Lady Bountiful and rescue them…

That’s the only thing that can explain such stupidity posing as policy.

 

[Philip_P]

Just having a bit of fun. Actually this is nowhere near a complete list of what I’d consider essential reading.

 

[buffalo]

Philip P:

Given the pluralistic nature of our nation, it’d be nearly impossible to define a quality education in terms of helping you get to heaven. Whose heaven? The Catholic one? The Baptist one? Jewish, Muslim, a favorable reincarnation, a dissolving into nothingness? The state should foster civic values, but it’s hardly its role to push a specific set of religious tenets.

None of this means that there aren’t universally acceptable values that should be encouraged. There are. Respect for the rule of law, the affirmation of what is good in others and in others’ cultures, the desire to seek out and develop virtue. Pluralism is not the same thing as relativism. It is the affirmation of that which is universally good and true in all people, and the approach that the garment shines brightest when each individual thread is strong, rather than the watered down “tolerance” or xenophobic nativism pushed by wrongheaded partisans of the left and right.

However, the “Catholic heaven education” would indeed produce law abiding, thoughtful, courteous, and caring citizens. Reduced would be the need for many authorities and laws as the citizenry would be more capable of individual self governance. The tax burden would be lower and more resources could shift to the downtrodden. True charity would be the standard. Civil rights fights would be gone as individual dignity would be recognized and affirmed.

The problem is one of lowest standards which I believe we have fallen to. This includes our current educational system where the goal is material success. This encourages cheating, dishonesty, selfishness and other things of this nature. We now have a bandaid solution to societies problems. Everthing is a fight to be won. It is also a result of taking God (Truth) out of schools and the politcal discussion.

I agree relatavism has to go.

I agree with the items on your list. It is the end game that counts, though.

 

[miguel]

Philip P:

Just having a bit of fun. Actually this is nowhere near a complete list of what I’d consider essential reading.

And the reason for including Marx is to highlight what doesn’t work?

 

[Philip_P]

Nah, the reason for putting Marx before Smith was just to tease the ultracapitalists out there.

Marx certainly belongs in any list of must reads for a well rounded education, though, along with folks such as Adam Smith and Niccolo Machiavelli. Regardless of your opinions of him, his writings have had enormous influence in the history of the last century and a half.

Personally, although I strongly disagree with most of his proposed solutions, I find many of his critiques of capitalism to be quite astute. Not surprising; after all, many capitalists have been able to do very astute critiques of communism.

This idea of reading lists is interesting, though, maybe I’ll start thread in the water cooler on this (not on Marx specifically, but on what authors are essential reading for a well-rounded education).

 

[miguel]

Philip P:

Marx certainly belongs in any list of must reads for a well rounded education, though, along with folks such as Adam Smith and Niccolo Machiavelli. Regardless of your opinions of him, his writings have had enormous influence in the history of the last century and a half.

“enormous influence”…Tell that to the millions who wound up dead at the hands of Marxists.

 

[Philip_P]

Um, not sure what you’re getting at here. I’m not a Marxist, so I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove. I thought we were discussing what would be included in a reading list, not trying to pass some moral judgement on political systems. Do you disagree that some Marx should be included in a reading list of influential writers in politics and history?

Also, since we’ve thrown the question out, any other thoughts on criteria for a quality curriculum?