Archbishop: Obama Needs To Stop 'Intruding Into Internal Life Of Church'

[Bubba_Switzler]

Catholic Cardinal George of Chicago is giving up Catholicism for lent:

catholicnewworld.com/cnwonline/2012/0226/cardinal.aspx

 

[LisaA]

Actually, Obama does not necessarily have a contraception obsession. He is simply an adherent of the new religion of “liberal sexualism” which teaches that absolutely anything goes with anyone you want, anytime you want and the government will provide the contraception.

You know I think it goes well beyond that. Look at his record. I repeat. HE VOTED AGAINST THE BABIES BORN ALIVE ACT. He voted to let babies DIE if they survived an abortion. That is simply SICKENING. He is a supporter of partial birth abortion as well. He claims any interference in virtual infanticide is “getting between a woman and her doctor.” There is something seriously wrong with this man’s moral underpinnings (if he has any).

So not only does he believe in liberal sexualism and contraception, but also in promoting abortion if the pill fails.

I truly wonder at this level of anti-life focus. He’s just plain scary.
Lisa

 

[LisaA]

Catholic Cardinal George of Chicago is giving up Catholicism for lent:

catholicnewworld.com/cnwonline/2012/0226/cardinal.aspx

This is brilliant. I hope everyone reads it! Cardinal George EVISCERATES (very kindly) the arguments supporting this mandate and it’s destructive effect on the many great services provided by Catholic entities.

I am seeing a common thread in that the LEFT has, more and more, tried to convince us that the 1st Amendment simply means freedom to go to a church of choice. Look at what they’ve done. It’s all toward putting devient behavior in public and restricting religious observence to the privacy of one’s home or church.

OUR mandate is to reach out to the world, not hide behind closed doors. The LEFT cannot seem to believe that anyone would do something helpful for his fellow man without being coerced.

Lisa

 

[Suudy]

Catholic Cardinal George of Chicago is giving up Catholicism for lent:

catholicnewworld.com/cnwonline/2012/0226/cardinal.aspx

Great quote:
The provision of health care should not demand “giving up” religious liberty. Liberty of religion is more than freedom of worship. Freedom of worship was guaranteed in the Constitution of the former Soviet Union. You could go to church, if you could find one. The church, however, could do nothing except conduct religious rites in places of worship-no schools, religious publications, health care institutions, organized charity, ministry for justice and the works of mercy that flow naturally from a living faith. All of these were co-opted by the government. We fought a long cold war to defeat that vision of society.
This is exactly what is going on here! Freedom of worship, not freedom of religion. Pushing the Church (and other religious organizations) out of the sphere of public service, and replacing it with a state version, is what is going on here.

 

[jwinch2]

Great quote:
The provision of health care should not demand “giving up” religious liberty. Liberty of religion is more than freedom of worship. Freedom of worship was guaranteed in the Constitution of the former Soviet Union. You could go to church, if you could find one. The church, however, could do nothing except conduct religious rites in places of worship-no schools, religious publications, health care institutions, organized charity, ministry for justice and the works of mercy that flow naturally from a living faith. All of these were co-opted by the government. We fought a long cold war to defeat that vision of society.
This is exactly what is going on here! Freedom of worship, not freedom of religion. Pushing the Church (and other religious organizations) out of the sphere of public service, and replacing it with a state version, is what is going on here.

THIS!

 

[Alan55]

Great quote:
The provision of health care should not demand “giving up” religious liberty. Liberty of religion is more than freedom of worship. Freedom of worship was guaranteed in the Constitution of the former Soviet Union. You could go to church, if you could find one. The church, however, could do nothing except conduct religious rites in places of worship-no schools, religious publications, health care institutions, organized charity, ministry for justice and the works of mercy that flow naturally from a living faith. All of these were co-opted by the government. We fought a long cold war to defeat that vision of society.
This is exactly what is going on here! Freedom of worship, not freedom of religion. Pushing the Church (and other religious organizations) out of the sphere of public service, and replacing it with a state version, is what is going on here.

Actually, that’s exactly what’s not going on here, despite your desire to tie President Obama to communism. The Catholic Church has thousands of schools, religious publications, health care institutions, organized charity, ministry for justice and various organizations promoting works of mercy. The President doesn’t want Catholic institutions, which employ hundreds of thousands of non-Catholic workers, to deny those non-Catholic workers (or, for that matter, Catholic workers who differ with the Church on contraception) to have insurance coverage for contraception. I don’t agree that this is an infringement on freedom of worship. The Church cannot convince Catholics to forego contraception, but they want to use the political process to deny contraception to Catholics and non-Catholics alike. That’s overreaching on the part of the Church in the U.S. I support Obama on this one.

Note that most developed countries, including most of Europe, have national health insurance that cover contraceptives. I don’t hear the European bishops complaining that their governments are infringing on freedom of worship. This is an issue that is driven by American politics.

 

[Incomplete]

I don’t agree that this is an infringement on freedom of worship. The Church cannot convince Catholics to forego contraception, but they want to use the political process to deny contraception to Catholics and non-Catholics alike. That’s overreaching on the part of the Church in the U.S. I support Obama on this one.

Note that most developed countries, including most of Europe, have national health insurance that cover contraceptives. I don’t hear the European bishops complaining that their governments are infringing on freedom of worship. This is an issue that is driven by American politics.

It denies freedom of religion, not freedom of worship. We can still worship how we want, but with this mandate we cannot practice our religion.

We do not want to use the political process to deny people contraceptives. Catholics are not trying to make any laws to ban these things or make them difficult to get. You’ve seen the statistics: the percentage of people who use them is high. Contraception and the other things in this plan are very accessible. All we ask is that we don’t have to personally provide it by giving them health insurance that includes it.

There are other ways the government could provide access if they wanted to. The Church would not block anything that didn’t make them give it.

Regarding the plan in Europe, I cannot talk knowledgeably about it because I don’t know how it works, but I suspect it’s very likely a different plan, one where the Church doesn’t have to personally provide access to birth control. And if I’m wrong, if all Catholic institutions are forced to provide it, then the Bishops were wrong to comply.

 

[jwinch2]

…but they want to use the political process to deny contraception to Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

This is entirely false and is a complete red herring which continually comes from the liberal left. No none is trying to deny others contraception. The Church is taking the position that they should not be forced to pay for someone immoral decisions. Free will still exists. Any worker at a Catholic institution or who works for a private business owned by a faithful Catholic can still go out and buy contraception should they desire to do so. In fact, there are a ton of places where they can get it for hardly any money at all, if not completely free. Everyone on the left wants to keep the Church out of the bedroom but they have no problem expecting the Church to pay for what goes on there.

Note that most developed countries, including most of Europe, have national health insurance that cover contraceptives. I don’t hear the European bishops complaining that their governments are infringing on freedom of worship. This is an issue that is driven by American politics.

It is an American issue because in Europe people pay for it individually in their taxes. The Church is not paying for it.

Furthermore, your suggestion that since the Church cannot get Catholics to obey her teachings on contraception that she should just leave it alone is laughable. We all sin. Sin is popular and it always as been. The Church does not modify her teachings due to lack of popularity or compliance, anymore than God did with Israel and the worship of false gods. When I read the Old Testament, I don’t see God the Father saying "well I guess my teachings on worship of other gods isn’t really working out so I guess I will just drop that one from the list:. Ridiculous.

At the end of the day you have a decision to make. The Holy Father has taken a stand against this. Every single Bishop in the United States has taken a stand against this. Where do you stand? With the Pope, Bishops, and Holy Mother Church; or not?

I would also point out that the reason for the First Amendment to the US Constitution is to keep government from meddling in the religious lives of its citizens. The US Constitution says nothing about separation of church and state. That came from the writings of Thomas Jefferson. However, even Thomas Jefferson would be against this.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.ne...69152638_135285982637_9298654_796558905_n.jpg

Finally, it is quite clear that you did not even read the article you commented on. If you had, you would see that a major premise of the discussion was that there is a difference between freedom of worship, and freedom of religion.

The provision of health care should not demand “giving up” religious liberty. Liberty of religion is more than freedom of worship. Freedom of worship was guaranteed in the Constitution of the former Soviet Union. You could go to church, if you could find one. The church, however, could do nothing except conduct religious rites in places of worship-no schools, religious publications, health care institutions, organized charity, ministry for justice and the works of mercy that flow naturally from a living faith. All of these were co-opted by the government.

This is important because President Obama himself has moved away from use of the term “Freedom of Religion” to use of the term “Freedom of Worship”. The President is not an idiot. He knows the history of these terms and what one versus the other means.

catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=37390

 

[pnewton]

This is entirely false and is a complete red herring which continually comes from the liberal left.

This whole debate is founded on this red herring. No one in the Catholic Church has suggested that contraception is illegal. No one is denying access to contraception. All the Church is demanding is that the Catholic Church not be the providers of contraception. All that is suggested is that Catholics not be mandated to commit an immoral act of material cooperation of evil by forking over the funds to provide this service. Contraception has nothing to do with health insurance. I know it is trite, yet it seems that some can not get this simple fact through their skulls: pregnancy and fertility are not diseases. Health insurance is supposed to provide assistance in dealing with disease, illness, and injury. It should cover contraception no more than it covers cosmetic surgery or nail polish.

 

[PaulinVA]

jwich, great post #600!

 

[_Abyssinia]

Obama’s HHS Mandate Revisions Were Just a Shell Game

lifenews.com/2012/02/27/obamas-hhs-mandate-revisions-were-just-a-shell-game/
Democrats See Benefits in Battle on Contraception Access

nytimes.com/2012/02/28/us/politics/democrats-primed-for-contraception-battle-with-republicans.html?_r=1&src=tp
**Who Is Sister Carol Keehan? **

ncregister.com/daily-news/who-is-sister-carol-keehan/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Kathleen Sebelius: "I have talked to Catholic health leaders, I’m reaching out to priests:"

politico.com/news/stories/0212/73372.html
Democrat Rep Kathy Hochul to constituents on HHS mandate: "Basically, we’re not looking to the Constitution"

hotair.com/archives/2012/02/27/dem-rep-to-constituents-on-hhs-mandate-basically-were-not-looking-to-the-constitution/

 

[Suudy]

Actually, that’s exactly what’s not going on here, despite your desire to tie President Obama to communism.

My “desire to tie President Obama to communism”??? I didn’t mention the president. Nor did I say the quoted text. Perhaps you should, as jwinch2 noted, read the linked article. Those words about communism were not mine.

As for the rest of the post, jwinch2 did an outstanding job in rebuttal.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Pro-Life Groups Continue Pushing Blunt Amdt to Stop Mandate

lifenews.com/2012/02/28/pro-life-groups-continue-pushing-blunt-amdt-to-stop-mandate/
**Obama apologizes to Karzai but not to Catholics protected by 1st amendment: “Show Us the Same Respect, Mr. President” **

ncregister.com/blog/tim-drake/please-show-us-the-same-respect-mr.-president

 

[LisaA]

Actually, that’s exactly what’s not going on here, despite your desire to tie President Obama to communism. The Catholic Church has thousands of schools, religious publications, health care institutions, organized charity, ministry for justice and various organizations promoting works of mercy. The President doesn’t want Catholic institutions, which employ hundreds of thousands of non-Catholic workers, to deny those non-Catholic workers (or, for that matter, Catholic workers who differ with the Church on contraception) to have insurance coverage for contraception. I don’t agree that this is an infringement on freedom of worship. The Church cannot convince Catholics to forego contraception, but they want to use the political process to deny contraception to Catholics and non-Catholics alike. That’s overreaching on the part of the Church in the U.S. I support Obama on this one.

Note that most developed countries, including most of Europe, have national health insurance that cover contraceptives. I don’t hear the European bishops complaining that their governments are infringing on freedom of worship. This is an issue that is driven by American politics.

JWinch did such a masterful job in countering your arguments I am hesitant to weigh in here but wanted to give the female side of things. Obama and Sebelius are cleverly trying to convince Americans that those mean old Bishops are preventing ACCESS to contraception, abortifaciants and sterilization procedures. They think we are all just idiots.

Not ONE of the people squawking about the objections to the mandate has provided a smidgen of evidence that woman are having difficulty accessing contraception! In fact the Left is frequently quoted as saying 99% of women use contraception (fully debunked but that’s not the issue) destroys any argument about difficulty accessing these products and procedures. Heck there is a college that wants to distribute Plan B in vending machines like a soda! Tell me it’s hard to get this stuff Alan. And this access is not new. I may be a bit of a dinosaur but when I was in middle school, Planned Parenthood came to our school and provided information on how we could get contraception products…FREE. This was in the late 60s and early 70s FWIW. Far as I know Planned Parenthood is still in existence and any woman who claims she can’t afford to buy contraception…what is it 100 condoms for $10…can get the products at any number of free or low income clinics.

I am delighted that our Bishops were not sucked into defending the Church’s teachings on contraception. That was clearly the plan of Sebelius because she knew that would be a winner. But they are focused on the religious liberty aspects and that is something even an atheist can support.

I give you credit for wading in Alan but your arguments are easily rebutted.

Lisa

 

[jwinch2]

Wow, my writing has been called “Masterful” and “Outstanding” here in short order. I think I will take the rest of the week off and quit while I am ahead…

 

[Tigg]

I am delighted that our Bishops were not sucked into defending the Church’s teachings on contraception. That was clearly the plan of Sebelius because she knew that would be a winner. But they are focused on the religious liberty aspects and that is something even an atheist can support.

Lisa

I generally agree with your statement with a small qualifier. The bishops do not need to defend Church teaching to the State, but as shepherds their first job is to sanctify and teach, and as a Catholic, I am immensely disappointed that most, like Dolan, have only weighed in on the civil argument. That’s fine in their dialogue with the administration, but now we have Pelosi making distinctions as it relates to their episcopal office. Puts them in a bit of an embarrassing situation with the faithful, I’d say. I guess I’m just a Catholic first, with a primary regard for the entire Church and would really like to hear more from them to strengthen and guide the community of faithful as we surely approach more difficult times ahead.

 

[LisaA]

I generally agree with your statement with a small qualifier. The bishops do not need to defend Church teaching to the State, but as shepherds their first job is to sanctify and teach, and as a Catholic, I am immensely disappointed that most, like Dolan, have only weighed in on the civil argument. That’s fine in their dialogue with the administration, but now we have Pelosi making distinctions as it relates to their episcopal office. Puts them in a bit of an embarrassing situation with the faithful, I’d say. I guess I’m just a Catholic first, with a primary regard for the entire Church and would really like to hear more from them to strengthen and guide the community of faithful as we surely approach more difficult times ahead.

Yes but you need to distinguish what they are saying to the MEDIA about this issue, which must focus on the religious liberty aspects of the mandate and what they are saying to their flock.

Cardinal Dolan and all of the other Bishops and Priests may well be speaking to their parishes about the issues of contraception, abortion inducing drugs and sterilization. I suspect that the civil issue is front and center because it is a crisis that needs to be dealt with immediately. And there is little point trying to explain the subtlties of Catholic teaching to the American public. Their eyes glaze over after about 30 seconds.

Catechizing the faithful, many of whom are probably not aware of some of these issues and teachings will take a lot of time. I listen to a couple of Catholic radio stations during the day. I am hearing call after call from Catholics saying that their Priests are FINALLY bringing up the subject of contraception, abortion inducing drugs, and sterilization. I think most Catholics understand the abortion issue. But the subtleties about abortion inducing drugs, methods of contraception that are allowed (NFP) and sterilization are not frequent subjects. As you said, this is a teachable moment!

Lisa

 

[Incomplete]

Wow, my writing has been called “Masterful” and “Outstanding” here in short order. I think I will take the rest of the week off and quit while I am ahead…

And both terms were right. I wrote something just before yours. I got done, and yours was there. I read it…and deleted mine.

But DOOONNNN’TTT GOOOOOO.

 

[jwinch2]

And both terms were right. I wrote something just before yours. I got done, and yours was there. I read it…and deleted mine.

But DOOONNNN’TTT GOOOOOO.

Now I am just going to get all big in the head! LOL.

Thanks for the kind words.

Peace of Christ,

 

[jwinch2]

Yes but you need to distinguish what they are saying to the MEDIA about this issue, which must focus on the religious liberty aspects of the mandate and what they are saying to their flock.

Cardinal Dolan and all of the other Bishops and Priests may well be speaking to their parishes about the issues of contraception, abortion inducing drugs and sterilization. I suspect that the civil issue is front and center because it is a crisis that needs to be dealt with immediately. And there is little point trying to explain the subtlties of Catholic teaching to the American public. Their eyes glaze over after about 30 seconds.

Catechizing the faithful, many of whom are probably not aware of some of these issues and teachings will take a lot of time. I listen to a couple of Catholic radio stations during the day. I am hearing call after call from Catholics saying that their Priests are FINALLY bringing up the subject of contraception, abortion inducing drugs, and sterilization. I think most Catholics understand the abortion issue. But the subtleties about abortion inducing drugs, methods of contraception that are allowed (NFP) and sterilization are not frequent subjects. As you said, this is a teachable moment!

Lisa

Good points. I also think it might be possible that the Bishops don’t want to send out too many messages at the same time in an attempt to keep the momentum and focus among the faithful.

Thoughts?