Archbishop Sample: A House Divided Cannot Stand

[CilladeRoma]

The alleged division exists only in the heads and in the hearts of those who oppose it—quite sad really.

I do not at all oppose the use of the EF, but to say that the division is “alleged” and “all in my mind” is to
not accept reality.
In my diocese, we have had an EF, by indult since the early 1990’s. Since SP, we have a few more offerings, but they are mostly attended by the same group of people. In fact, there has been no real growth to speak of at our EF parish, the numbers have remained the same for about the last 10 years.

Many of those who attend the EF were very critical of our former Ordinary (who granted the indult in the first place) and have continued to vilify him and many of the wonderful things he accomplished through their blogs and news letters. Many that I know personally who attend the EF have nothing good to say about Pope Francis, or the USCCB . I even know a few priests who have refused to help them, even though they love the EF, because of some of the attitudes present among the devotees.

As Bishop Sample said, it is a two-way street.

 

[Crusader13]

You made some good points. I think what usually causes the division is the motive behind the changes and not just the changes themselves.

For example, when we start talking about the liturgical changes with regards to the post VII mass we run into the difficult aspect of trying to convince the faithful that these changes are for the better.

Removing prayers, allowing communion in the hand, Eucharistic ministers, these tend to be really divisive issues and those who support the changes will typically cite the authority of the Church as reason enough to accept them at face value.

I think when we look beneath the surface as to why the changes were made and who was orchestrating their implementation we run into further debate and division.

So what we end up with is a split between the faithful. Those who want to question why things are being done in a certain way and those who view the questioning as dissent and disobedience.

 

[Randolph]

I do not at all oppose the use of the EF, but to say that the division is “alleged” and “all in my mind” is to m
not accept reality.
In my diocese, we have had an EF, by indult since the early 1990’s. Since SP, we have a few more offerings, but they are mostly attended by the same group of people. In fact, there has been no real growth to speak of at our EF parish, the numbers have remained the same for about the last 10 years.

Many of those who attend the EF were very critical of our former Ordinary (who granted the indult in the first place) and have continued to vilify him and many of the wonderful things he accomplished through their blogs and news letters. Many that I know personally who attend the EF have nothing good to say about Pope Francis, or the USCCB . I even know a few priests who have refused to help them, even though they love the EF, because of some of the attitudes present among the devotees.

The reality is the EF and the OF are Masses approved by the Church. It is both wrong and un-charitable to dislike either Mass. The root cause of the dislike stems in the minds and in the hearts of the people—not the OF nor the EF. When Pope Benedict issued Summorum Pontificum over 10 years ago, resistance was expected. Both Masses are here to stay. They are not going anywhere. They are not in competition against each other. They are two forms of the same Rite.

The EF is growing steadily, and people like it (perhaps not in your parish). It will take time. Remember the EF itself was on the verge of near extinction about 30 years ago.

Finally, Pope Benedict expressed it best in his accompanying letter to the bishops:

“…In the second place, the fear was expressed in discussions about the awaited Motu Proprio, that the possibility of a wider use of the 1962 Missal would lead to disarray or even divisions within parish communities. This fear also strikes me as quite unfounded. The use of the old Missal presupposes a certain degree of liturgical formation and some knowledge of the Latin language; neither of these is found very often. Already from these concrete presuppositions, it is clearly seen that the new Missal will certainly remain the ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, not only on account of the juridical norms, but also because of the actual situation of the communities of the faithful…”

 

[stpurl]

Wait a minute. So NOW the people who like the EF do so because “it’s a return to the past of being told to be (sic) quite (I presume you mean QUIET) and obey?”

And while I’m sure you didn’t realize this your ‘one group and other group’ turn out to be same ‘fake’ group’; you can’t even take a person who likes the OF and show any ‘wrong’ on his side’, oh no. . .the group who sees the OF ‘as borderline heresy’ would be the EF adherents, right? And the same EF adherents you call the ‘other group’ are the ones who see the EF ONLY as a 'return to being 'quiet and obedient".

I’m sorry but this deserves to be called out, not personally against you as a person, but as a piece of ‘argument’ that is flat out biased, intolerant, and utterly fallacious.

 

[PetraG]

The reality is the EF and the OF are Masses approved by the Church. It is both wrong and un-charitable to dislike either Mass.

I’d say “dislike” is an emotional thing that we don’t need to concern ourselves with too much. It isn’t wrong to not like one Form or the other. It is wrong to put our personal likes and dislikes, which are really not important by comparison, ahead of the demands of charity.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Wait a minute. So NOW the people who like the EF do so because “it’s a return to the past of being told to be (sic) quite (I presume you mean QUIET) and obey?”

No, it’s the people who lived with the TLM before Vatican II who don’t want it back

You twisted what I posted into being a criticism of those who like the EF.

.

 

[PetraG]

You twisted what I posted into being a criticism of those who like the EF.

“You twisted” could perhaps be put in a way that could lead to a conversation instead of an argument. After all, you only know that you were misunderstood, right? You don’t actually know how that happened.
How about “Sorry, you misunderstood what I meant; let me clarify…”
(Just a thought.)

 

[MagdalenaRita]

No, it’s the people who lived with the TLM before Vatican II who don’t want it back
.

My only problem with this is that it is only partly true. While yes growing numbers of those who prefer the EF are youth and those with young families, not ALL who lived with theTLM before Vatican II do not want it back. There are those who lived during that time, grieved over the changes and absolutely do want the EF back.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

A few who lived before Vatican II want the TLM back, but the majority do not.

 

[PetraG]

A few who lived before Vatican II want the TLM back, but the majority do not.

Well, it isn’t actually a simple question. No, most don’t want the TLM to be made the Ordinary Form. There are things about the way the Mass was typically offered that people do like to see coming back.

In any event, the TLM is not going to be made the Ordinary Form again. That isn’t happening.

 

[Emeraldlady]

The alleged division exists only in the heads and in the hearts of those who oppose it—quite sad really.

Early this year Fr. Ripperger a traditionalist and an exorcist issued a grave warning about how the wrong attitudes within the traditional movement are producing some very bad fruits that are ultimately damaging the movement. The divisive attitude that “we are better than them” has to stop.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

A few who lived before Vatican II want the TLM back, but the majority do not.

I would agree that many of the baby boomers who lived prior to Vatican II feel that way, even the majority, though there is as generation prior to the baby boomers passing away that have voiced themselves differently.

 

[Emeraldlady]

JimR-OCDS:

A few who lived before Vatican II want the TLM back, but the majority do not.

I would agree that many of the baby boomers who lived prior to Vatican II feel that way, even the majority, though there is as generation prior to the baby boomers passing away that have voiced themselves differently.

Maybe that is an American experience but not in the Aus Catholic experience. That generation were first and foremost obedient to the authority of the Church lead by the Pope. It’s a very new thing for this challenging the Pope and demanding what you want.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Early this year Fr. Ripperger a traditionalist and an exorcist

Father Ripperger is a great priest. All of his talks are very very good. That whole series of talks on Catholic Tradition are worth listening to.

 

[PetraG]

Father Ripperger is a great priest. All of his talks are very very good. That whole series of talks on Catholic Tradition are worth listening to.

They are very careful about who they choose to be an exorcist.

 

[PetraG]

The divisive attitude that “we are better than them” has to stop.

It is inevitable that any movement that includes a concern for doing important things well is going to attract those who are prone to believe that they can become better than other people by doing important things well. It doesn’t really matter what that important thing is. It can be spiritual works, it can be corporal works of mercy. It can be anything. This is a predictable tactic that the evil one will always try to use. The solution is not to pretend that it is not important or profitable to do important things well. The solution is to guard against the tactics that will be always used to bring that down.
This is a prevalent tactic being used against us in the Church regardless of what it is that we’re trying to do well. We have to be aware!

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Maybe that is an American experience but not in the Aus Catholic experience. That generation were first and foremost obedient to the authority of the Church lead by the Pope. It’s a very new thing for this challenging the Pope and demanding what you want.

I am not talking about whether they were obedient or not. Yes, sure, we must be obedient to the Church: Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium and they were, yes, obedient but that doesn’t mean they did not voice their concerns. I have worked with the elderly since I was 16 and that was a long time ago, I heard the complaints and the sadness.

Catholics doing their best to maintain the Traditions of the Church is not new. It goes back to the protestant revolution.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Emeraldlady:

Maybe that is an American experience but not in the Aus Catholic experience. That generation were first and foremost obedient to the authority of the Church lead by the Pope. It’s a very new thing for this challenging the Pope and demanding what you want.

I am NOT talking about whether they were obedient or not. Yes, sure, we must be obedient to the Church: Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium and they were, yes, obedient but that doesn’t mean they did not voice their concerns. I have worked with the elderly since I was 16 and that was a long time ago, I heard the complaints and the sadness.

Catholics doing their best to maintain the Traditions of the Church is not new. It goes back to the protestant revolution.

As I said, that must be the American experience. There are so many things are hard to accept from the Church who has been given authority to bind and loose. I’ve lived with a couple of generations of pre VII raised Catholics my whole life as the grew old and passed away. This is a very old fashioned Catholic family and has a significant profile in the east coast Catholic world. Any annoyances with things these people had about changes was so minimal in the life of a Catholic. No one expressed a loss of faith in the Church or dissatisfaction with the Pope. Living as an old fashioned Catholic was by far more focused on prayer, Eucharist, Confession and witness of obedience to the Church, to the younger generation.

Th modern traditional is witnessing something very different to the younger generation. Daily criticism of the Church and her work to bind and loose is not part of the old fashioned Catholics sensibility.

 

[CRV]

QUOTE @JimR-OCDS - “one group sees the Novus Ordo as borderline heresy and the other group sees the TLM as a return to the past of being told to be quite and obey.” [quote function not working for me right now for some reason]

After the word ‘heresy’ insert SSPX - not the general group of Mass attendees who love the EF Mass. And after the words ‘the other group sees the TLM as a return’ insert OF attendees.

No, it’s the people who lived with the TLM before Vatican II who don’t want it back

Not true in all cases - e.g. myself. I attended Mass before the changes of Vat II and I do want it back!

 

[otjm]

You might note that your two statements are in conflict.

My mother was born in 1917, and after her retirement would attend daily Mass.

About 20 years ago I asked her one day what she thought about Vatican 2. I hardly had the words out of my mouth when she exclaimed “Oh! The Mass in English!”

I am not going to suggest that she typifies all older Catholics. However, I strongly suspect that the most significant change to the liturgy was not removing the prayers at the foot of the altar of the Last Gospel; it was the vernacular.

some of the rubrics were changed; some of the prayers were eliminated and some brought into the Mass; but the format is so close as to be considered by many to be identical.

My mother was adamant that our family sit in about the third pew from the front; and as I and my siblings were old enough to use a missal, we were provided one, and expected to follow the Mass. And I also suspect that if the EF had not been changed except to put it into English instead of being said in Latin, she would not have batted an eye - she would have had the same reaction.

There is a small minority of people who - on either side of the matter - make noise about the changes. The vast majority of people, all of whom attend the OF, will likely respond if asked about the differences by remarking on Latin/English, and ad populum. And I suspect if the matters were weighted they would say that English is the more important one (although I suspect they are very attached to the latter also).

I don’t expect that the EF will ever be provided in the vernacular, so the matter is largely irrelevant, but having watched this for the better part of 7 decades, this is my observation.