(Archdiocese of Detroit:) Statement regarding Real Catholic TV and its name

[GratefulDad]

Interesting. So it appears South Bend is the diocese with jurisdiction. However it also appears that they never did seek the diocese’s consent to use the name Catholic. They’re hanging their hat on the fact that Bishop Kevin Rhoades hasn’t questioned them about it.

Given RCTV was started several years ago they were probably not thinking they would get called out by the Diocesan office.

 

[curlycool89]

Interesting. So it appears South Bend is the diocese with jurisdiction. However it also appears that they never did seek the diocese’s consent to use the name Catholic. They’re hanging their hat on the fact that Bishop Kevin Rhoades hasn’t questioned them about it.

Of course. The old “it’s not illegal unless [until] you get caught” defence.

My bet is that the Bishop of South Bend knew as much about this as the public did. Which means that he’ll probably now take a look in the next few months. So, really all this little jurisdictional charade did is likely delay whatever happens by a few months.

Personally, people who try and weasel out of issues by legal maneuvering always strike me as being untrustworthy. Seriously, if there’s a problem then respond to it. Don’t give us the “you can’t do anything because we’re registered in a different state that nobody knew about”. It doesn’t make you look smart, it makes you look like you’re trying to hide something. Considering that RCTV is trying to be an “authentic” Catholic voice, all this maneuvering has really done is cost them their credibility.

 

[GratefulDad]

Of course. The old “it’s not illegal unless [until] you get caught” defence.

My bet is that the Bishop of South Bend knew as much about this as the public did. Which means that he’ll probably now take a look in the next few months. So, really all this little jurisdictional charade did is likely delay whatever happens by a few months.

Personally, people who try and weasel out of issues by legal maneuvering always strike me as being untrustworthy. Seriously, if there’s a problem then respond to it. Don’t give us the “you can’t do anything because we’re registered in a different state that nobody knew about”. It doesn’t make you look smart, it makes you look like you’re trying to hide something. Considering that RCTV is trying to be an “authentic” Catholic voice, all this maneuvering has really done is cost them their credibility.

The cost to their credibility is from the Archdiocese of Detroit who is closing 48 plus parishes in the area. One news article stated the Archdiocese may abandoned the City of Detroit totally. It is stunning the AoD would call out a Orthodox Lay Group for speaking the Truth boldly, but the all the closings speak volumes about reaping what, one sows.

 

[stinkcat_14]

The cost to their credibility is from the Archdiocese of Detroit who is closing 48 plus parishes in the area. One news article stated the Archdiocese may abandoned the City of Detroit totally. It is stunning the AoD would call out a Orthodox Lay Group for speaking the Truth boldly, but the all the closings speak volumes about reaping what, one sows.

Gee, the closing of parishes wouldn’t have something to do with the fact that the Detroit economy is in the toilet would it?

I also haven’t seen the clause in canon law that allows entities who speak the truth boldly to pick and choose which parts of canon law they will follow.

 

[JReducation]

I did a good deal of research on this and could not find ANY other group that the AoD issued a cease and desist order to. What did you find Br?

Parrish closings having nothing to do with this issue??? With all do respect and charity. You have got to be kidding? As a lay father understanding this is instinctive in rearing children in the Faith. I am truly stunned. Our mission in Christ is to save as many souls as possible and this is done by proclaiming the Truth and not allowing the people around us to slide into the false beliefs of universalism or secularism.
.

I think that Brother is trying to say that the closing of parishes is not a canonical issue and the situation here is.

Pope Paul VI was the man who created this law. He created it to ensure that all activities that claim to be Catholic have oversight. We have to understand that oversight is not the same as administration. Oversight simply means that they comply with Church law and Church teachings. The administration can still be independent of the diocese.

The closing and opening of parishes becomes a canonical issue if anyone but the bishop does it. Only a bishop can erect and close parishes. As long as it’s the bishop opening and closing the issue is not a legal one.

Perhaps a canon lawyer could weigh in on this. It would seem reasonable that the bishop where the organization is rooted would have the jurisdiction. It would seem odd, though there could be a reason, that someone could live in one diocese and set up an organization in another diocese that that Ordinary has no authority over…

Legitimate apostolates must maintain proper relationships to Church authority and obtain the consent of the lawful Church authority to call themselves “Catholic.”

If this has already been done, you’d think they’d simply say so…

I’m not a canon lawyer and I’m not going to try to pretend. However, the article on Catholic.org confused me a bit. Allow me to explain.

Take a large religious community. Just pick one. To operate in a diocese, it must have the approval of the diocesan bishop, even when it’s operating its own institutions, such as a college or a hospital. Franciscan University needed permission of the local bishop to open up. Once that’s granted, the bishop is no longer involved with the university and no bishop can close it. However, the diocesan bishop can strip it of its Catholic name. That’s what happened with St. Joseph’s Hospital. There was no question as to where the Sisters of Mercy were incorporated. We know that in the USA religious communities must incorporate. It’s a civil requirement, because they constitute legal persons.

I use this example, because the TOR friars do not have their headquarters in that diocese. The same is true of other institutions run by Jesuits, Dominicans, Holy Cross, etc. The community is incorporated in the civil jurisdiction where its headquarters are. However, Canon Law does not care if your mother house is in Egypt. If you operate a ministry in the Archdiocese of London, you had better have permission of the archbishop or you cannot call yourself Catholic.

My question is, how is a lay apostolate different? I’m a little confused here and curious too.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

 

[LiveCatholic]

The cost to their credibility is from the Archdiocese of Detroit who is closing 48 plus parishes in the area. One news article stated the Archdiocese may abandoned the City of Detroit totally. It is stunning the AoD would call out a Orthodox Lay Group for speaking the Truth boldly, but the all the closings speak volumes about reaping what, one sows.

**
Are you out of your mind? :manvspc:
**
You’re attacking the ‘credibility’ of the bishop, chancery, and local Catholic Church in Detroit, in defense of a lay group that’s [perhaps unintentionally] masquerading as something it isn’t?

I don’t know anything about your background, but if you’ve ever planted a garden or tried to raise a plant, it takes awhile. More important than the health of a single crop is the health of the field and its soil. *The state of a field takes generations of crops and management to ruin or improve. * This is an inherited situation, partly due to the situation SE Michigan now finds itself in and partly due to the policies of the local Church since the 60s and before.

Look, this whole thing with Mr. Voris, where he wants to frame a war between us vs. them, clearly inspires you and other Vorites on the thread. You’re jettisoning charity, and allowing RCTV to torpedo the good-will it has with moderate and reform-minded Catholics. The Voris camp, like the Corapi camp, is going to get REAL lonely soon, and the hardliners are going to do NOTHING except polarize the Church further. Don’t let that happen.

 

[Credo111]

If people here bothered to read the Lifesite article in its entirety, you’d see that the archdiocese has not exactly been fair to Voris. The problem is not with Abp. Vigneron, but with a chancery staffed with liberals and dissenters, who don’t like Voris’s orthodoxy and have been working against him for years. These staff are holdouts from homosexual activist Bishop Gumbleton’s reign, and it’s what Abp. Vigneron has unfortunately inherited and must work with. I doubt the good archbishop is getting accurate information about RealCatholicTV, especially considering the fact that the staff have not allowed Voris to meet personally with Vigneron after SEVEN requests (yet it will allow the heterodox group Elephants in the Room to come to the chancery).

There is something rotten in the diocese of Detroit, and Voris is not it. Neither is the archbishop.

Pray for a good resolution to all of this, and that truth will prevail.
God bless,
Christine

 

[saveusfromhell]

**
Are you out of your mind? :manvspc:

You’re jettisoning charity

 

[FAB]

Thanks again, Brother. If you want a whopping eye-opener with regard to RCTV’s “mission statement” or intent, it is shockingly clear in this video where Voris boasts rather forcibly that RCTV …
“has kept itself free from any entanblements whatsoever in internal church relationships. We are not beholden to ANYONE. We are totally free to say whatever needs to be said.”

Putting it mildly, and then some that I omitted. Scroll to 3:15 minutes.

This may be the very reason for the AoD denying approval for their apostolate from the very beginning.

Voris is perfectly free to say what ever he wants, he just does not have the right to put “Catholic” in the name of his buisness, which is what is is since he is making money off of it, an then somehow reports that his “truth” is the only truth. His reports only site one sided sources, so they are basically opinion, teachings according to the Church of Voris, perhaps he can rename his site just that.

 

[LiveCatholic]

If people here bothered to read the Lifesite article in its entirety, you’d see that the archdiocese has not exactly been fair to Voris. The problem is not with Abp. Vigneron, but with a chancery staffed with liberals and dissenters, who don’t like Voris’s orthodoxy and have been working against him for years. These staff are holdouts from homosexual activist Bishop Gumbleton’s reign, and it’s what Abp. Vigneron has unfortunately inherited and must work with. I doubt the good archbishop is getting accurate information about RealCatholicTV, especially considering the fact that the staff have not allowed Voris to meet personally with Vigneron after SEVEN requests (yet it will allow the heterodox group Elephants in the Room to come to the chancery).

There is something rotten in the diocese of Detroit, and Voris is not it. Neither is the archbishop.

Pray for a good resolution to all of this, and that truth will prevail.
God bless,
Christine

A cabal of anonymous staffers and chancery officials… ooo, menacing! Christine, you should write spy novels in your spare time.

You know what? Archbishop Vigneron is economically the corporation sole (if the principles outlined in Fr. Reese’s book on the American episcopacy still hold) and pastorally the man of the house. If he has some people working under him who need to find a new line of work, I think that’s a decision best left to the Archbishop himself.

If you think these conspiracy theories are worth anyone’s second look, you’re wrong. Start citing evidence and naming names, or its not worth our time. That’s the only way reform-minded Catholics can charitably call out individuals for specific actions, without going all SSPX on us.

RCTV isn’t exactly unblemished, but this is quickly becoming a cafeteria food fight… and no Catholic should want the bishop’s chancery does not need to be the ‘bad guy’ in this story.

 

[LiveCatholic]

**
Are you out of your mind? :manvspc:

now where is the charity in this post?
please show your justification for any of that.

The Voris camp, like the Corapi camp, is going to get REAL lonely soon, ??? corapi how is he relevant
what’s a hardliner is that like a practising catholic?
who are these or what do they believe?**

Where isn’t there charity? Let me just help you nitpick myself to death, while I’m at it.

Naw, I can practice Catholicism without fully endorsing everything that I see on RCTV.

Actually, friend, hardliners are the people, like you, who are wondering how its possible to be a practicing Catholic without endorsing everything Mr. Voris has said. There are a legion of problems that follow from this attitude, and I could explain them to you in some detail if necessary–and THIS is why Fr. Corapi is relevant.

Fr. Corapi preached truth, the Church’s Truth, real well for a long time. …but the problem became that people had become accustomed to receiving the Church’s Truth from Fr. Corapi alone, and developed attachments to the popular preacher that trumped the official Church or any well-meaning ecclesiastical authority. So, when Fr. Corapi deviated from the pattern that made up his very distinguished career, we found people still endorsing him even though he was doing things that were completely disagreeable, and attacking the Church for censuring him.

 

[saveusfromhell]

saveusfromhell;8743445:

Where isn’t there charity? Let me just help you nitpick myself to death, while I’m at it.

Naw, I can practice Catholicism without fully endorsing everything that I see on RCTV.

Actually, friend, hardliners are the people, like you, who are wondering how its possible to be a practicing Catholic without endorsing everything Mr. Voris has said.

There are a legion of problems that follow from this attitude, and I could explain them to you in some detail if necessary–and THIS is why Fr. Corapi is relevant.

Fr. Corapi preached truth, the Church’s Truth, real well for a long time. …but the problem became that people had become accustomed to receiving the Church’s Truth from Fr. Corapi alone, and developed attachments to the popular preacher that trumped the official Church or any well-meaning ecclesiastical authority. So, when Fr. Corapi deviated from the pattern that made up his very distinguished career, we found people still endorsing him even though he was doing things that were completely disagreeable, and attacking the Church for censuring him.

i’m reporting this for lack of charity. read the forum rules if you can’t tell the difference

 

[LiveCatholic]

LiveCatholic;8743487:

i’m reporting this for lack of charity. read the forum rules if you can’t tell the difference

Make my day.

I’m sorry if you took offense at what I said, but I don’t think I’ve treated Mr. Voris, Fr. Corapi, and the AoD uncharitably. To explain my comment, I think there are clear parallels between these two controversies: people get wrapped up in personalities instead of the Church. So they attack either the AoD or Mr. Voris, or whomever. *This is unacceptable, especially when the AoD receives the brunt of the criticism. *

Now that I’ve painstakingly explained my position, please tell me how you believe that I’ve offended you / violated rules?

 

[Sirach2]

This message will deconstruct in five seconds…

 

[saveusfromhell]

saveusfromhell;8743496:

Make my day.

QUOTE]

you have said vorris is trying to start a war and others on this thread. i know of nobody who wants to start a war that’s simply imotive language.
you have decided i’m a hardliner who

Actually, friend, hardliners are the people, like you, who are wondering how its possible to be a practicing Catholic without endorsing everything Mr. Voris has said.

when did i say this

also check forum rules under charity

 

[mlund]

Just change it to Reflections on Catholicism TV or something similar. It’s a fair description of what they are all about, none of the acronyms change, and you don’t trample on anything you need the bishop’s permission for.

• Marty Lund

 

[LiveCatholic]

**
Are you out of your mind? :manvspc:

now where is the charity in this post?
please show your justification for any of that.

The Voris camp, like the Corapi camp, is going to get REAL lonely soon, ??? corapi how is he relevant
what’s a hardliner is that like a practising catholic?**

who are these or what do they believe?

LiveCatholic;8743516:

saveusfromhell;8743496:

Make my day.

QUOTE]

you have said vorris is trying to start a war and others on this thread. i know of nobody who wants to start a war that’s simply imotive language.
you have decided i’m a hardliner who when did i say this

also check forum rules under charity

You asked me if a ‘hardliner’ (i.e., from the context of my statement, someone who supports Mr. Voris and RCTV unconditionally) was just a ‘practicing Catholic.’

I stated in so many words that if you see someone who supports Voris-RCTV unconditionally as synonymous or mutually inclusive with practicing Catholic, that’s exactly the sort of attitude I’m criticizing. I do not have to support Voris-RCTV to be a practicing Catholic–I find your suggestion is offensive.

Re: the war thing. That’s not what I said, guess again. The approach of RCTV, in their own words, is consistently framed as an us vs. them conflict. This attitude clearly inspires some in this thread–no use naming names, they know who they are–to use a no-holds barred approach in lashing out against the people they feel are ill-disposed towards Mr. Voris.

Now, take a deep breath, and re-read all those things that upset you.

 

[LiveCatholic]

This message will deconstruct in five seconds…

This message has self-destructed. npatrol:

 

[stinkcat_14]

The problem is not with Abp. Vigneron, but with a chancery staffed with liberals and dissenters, who don’t like Voris’s orthodoxy and have been working against him for years.

Can you link us to some evidence of this? And even if he is a victim, why does that exempt him from the requirements of canon law?

 

[saveusfromhell]

okay so your new and havn’t got the swing of this, your last number of posts are unacceptable, i have done this at the start myself so i going to cut you some slack
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=132852
if you continue posting in the manner you have been, you won’t last.
the mod has warned this thread 3 times now.
actually i founf the change in post funny but be warned it’s not a good idea to try that again if someone quotes it there is no way back.