G
God_is_truth
Guest
You do have a point. i agree totally.
Are Catholics allowed to refrute Islam?
- Thread starter gmcbroom
- Start date
- Status
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
It’s interesting how I read so many people being ok with the pope kissing a Koran, a book that denies Christ’s divinity and sonship and curses Christians and Christian thinking, and yet when Obama bowed to some foreign dignitaries, CAF lit up with anger and venom LOL
L
losh14
Guest
It is interesting. It also speaks to differences in what people hold as important, and in how much leeway we’re willing to give each other.It’s interesting how I read so many people being ok with the pope kissing a Koran, a book that denies Christ’s divinity and sonship and curses Christians and Christian thinking, and yet when Obama bowed to some foreign dignitaries, CAF lit up with anger and venom LOL
Personally, bowing is a sign of greeting in some cultures and it shows deference (not worship) within context. Some would take Obama’s shaking hands as being unforgiveably personal and an invasion of personal space.
Here’s another example - the PLO foreign minister visited my college as part of an entourage from the State Department. I asked him a question, which he misinterpreted and then trounced on me. I later rephrased the question to him personally, face to face, he apologized, asked me to walk with him, and took my hand. While we talked, he held my hand. This is a gesture of friendship among Arab men and (in context of our earlier discussion) and apology. But many Americans would find it embarrassing if not emasculating for two men to hold hands.
P
prodigal-sun
Guest
Sorry, but I side with the church on this one. I believe they do believe in the one true God but have a very imperfect veiw of who he is.I’ve heard this argument before. Nope. If you read Genesis, God says “we” when he speaks, sounds trinitarian enough for me already. Then if you look, Catholics and Jews believe in the same salvation history up until Christ whereas the Muslims believe in an alternative route. The Fall is a different account and outcome, the situation with Abraham and Ishmael different, and Jesus is mischaracterized. In the Old Testament Christ is not present at all but we see Him in prophecy. So looking at the holy writings and character of God, we have common ground. Would I say that at this point Jews misunderstand the nature of God? You bet! If God is Trinity and they refuse to accept it and His Son, yes, then in effect, we do worship different gods. But as far as salvation history prior to the advent of our Lord, we have the same understanding of God. Muslims never did.
Peace back atcha!
Peace!
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
I would agree were it not for their rejection of Christ, their false salvation “history,” their claims about Allah’s personality and relations with mankind, the way Allah relates to Christians and Jews, a false account of everything from soup to nuts, and a distorted view of sin, soteriology, eschatology, prophecy, and a million other things including Allah’s sanction of violence and hatred.
This is the case of two people describing the same person. One claims x, y, and z about the person, the claims a, b, and c and they don’t line up. Someone’s wrong. It’s as if someone claimed to know my mother and all they could say is she is female, my mother, in her 60’s, and American. Is that enough to claim to know her? Then what if they added that my mom was petty, vengeful, a gossip, lazy, and a health-nut? The reality is my mom never gossips, isn’t petty, forgives pretty quickly, hasn’t a lazy bone in her body, and has a lot of health issues that keep her from being a health nut. Doesn’t add up? Obviously that person doesn’t know my mom and I wouldn’t buy it. Same with this. They don’t know Our God. The Catechism is patently wrong on this. I couldn’t disagree with you more, respectfully. I can only imagine what the Fathers would say about this…
I wonder if the Catholics that fought in the Crusades or men like Charles Martel would concur with your appraisal? The same god?
This is the case of two people describing the same person. One claims x, y, and z about the person, the claims a, b, and c and they don’t line up. Someone’s wrong. It’s as if someone claimed to know my mother and all they could say is she is female, my mother, in her 60’s, and American. Is that enough to claim to know her? Then what if they added that my mom was petty, vengeful, a gossip, lazy, and a health-nut? The reality is my mom never gossips, isn’t petty, forgives pretty quickly, hasn’t a lazy bone in her body, and has a lot of health issues that keep her from being a health nut. Doesn’t add up? Obviously that person doesn’t know my mom and I wouldn’t buy it. Same with this. They don’t know Our God. The Catechism is patently wrong on this. I couldn’t disagree with you more, respectfully. I can only imagine what the Fathers would say about this…
I wonder if the Catholics that fought in the Crusades or men like Charles Martel would concur with your appraisal? The same god?Sorry, but I side with the church on this one. I believe they do believe in the one true God but have a very imperfect veiw of who he is.
Peace!
P
prodigal-sun
Guest
What does it matter to me what they would have thought about it. I know what the church teaches and if my ideas of what truth is does not fall in line with that then I need to reexamine what I hold to be truth. Islam holds a very limited understanding who “God” is.I would agree were it not for their rejection of Christ, their false salvation “history,” their claims about Allah’s personality and relations with mankind, the way Allah relates to Christians and Jews, a false account of everything from soup to nuts, and a distorted view of sin, soteriology, eschatology, prophecy, and a million other things including Allah’s sanction of violence and hatred.
This is the case of two people describing the same person. One claims x, y, and z about the person, the claims a, b, and c and they don’t line up. Someone’s wrong. It’s as if someone claimed to know my mother and all they could say is she is female, my mother, in her 60’s, and American. Is that enough to claim to know her? Then what if they added that my mom was petty, vengeful, a gossip, lazy, and a health-nut? The reality is my mom never gossips, isn’t petty, forgives pretty quickly, hasn’t a lazy bone in her body, and has a lot of health issues that keep her from being a health nut. Doesn’t add up? Obviously that person doesn’t know my mom and I wouldn’t buy it. Same with this. They don’t know Our God. The Catechism is patently wrong on this. I couldn’t disagree with you more, respectfully. I can only imagine what the Fathers would say about this…
Peace!
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
You lost me, mate.
What does it matter to me what they would have thought about it. I know what the church teaches and if my ideas of what truth is does not fall in line with that then I need to reexamine what I hold to be truth. Islam holds a very limited understanding who “God” is.
Peace!
B
Bezant
Guest
If our way is The Truth, than any part consistent with our beliefs in another faith is true.
You said it right.
T
TEPO
Guest
Not only are we allowed to refute Islam, we’re obliged to.
On a large scale -when Islam is left unrefuted, it tends to encourage wicked social doctrines, which contradict today’s modern Catholic Social Teaching; a summary of the Churches beliefs on things like “basic human rights”, “limited government”, etc.
osjspm.org/catholic_social_teaching.aspx
On an individual scale -Islamic converts from Christianity create abominations in their abandonment of truth.
In all, Islam is an antichrist movement with evil social aspects. Catholics should refute this on all levels whether they claim to worship the God of Abraham or the God of Jacob.
On a large scale -when Islam is left unrefuted, it tends to encourage wicked social doctrines, which contradict today’s modern Catholic Social Teaching; a summary of the Churches beliefs on things like “basic human rights”, “limited government”, etc.
osjspm.org/catholic_social_teaching.aspx
On an individual scale -Islamic converts from Christianity create abominations in their abandonment of truth.
In all, Islam is an antichrist movement with evil social aspects. Catholics should refute this on all levels whether they claim to worship the God of Abraham or the God of Jacob.
T
The_Sentry
Guest
Not if they’re utterly lost
L
Liquid47
Guest
I’m sorry to hear that. I’m also sorry to hear that you believe JPII’s kissing of the Qu’ran is a low point in his papacy.But I cannot in good conscience accept what the Catechism says about Islam worshipping the same god as Christians and together with us they adore the one, merciful God…I find that part of the CCC disturbing. Not much has changed for me on that front.
Like anything in the CCC, conflicts of opinion between the faithful and our compendium is not a matter of dispute, but lack of understanding.
Paragraph 841 is often misinterpreted as saying that Islam is just as valid for truth, love and salvation as Catholicism. That is not the case.
In fact what 841 states is a direct comment on what is happening in this thread: a dissent about Islam, and by proxy, Muslims personally.
There is a plan of salvation for the entire world. As we know, only about one third of the world is Christian, and only one seventh is Catholic. And yet, the plan of salvation is not exclusively made for a sliver of the seven billion on Earth. But the plan of salvation is different from salvation itself, and in that regard, we believe only Catholics have accepted the graces necessary for salvation.
Part of the plan of salvation is that we need to show love, compassion, and the light of Christ towards others outside our religion, and as the CCC states, one of those first in line are the Muslims. However erroneous their beliefs in God, they do profess to believe in the same God we do, and that in and of itself, is a start.
In this thread, and in fact in other threads concerning Islam, I am definitely not seeing it. Yes, we uphold the Catholic Church because it is true. But we do it through love and charity. That’s what makes us Catholics: Charity in Truth.
Remember Jesus. He never gave up on us. He always showed compassion for those who scorned him, and in fact died for those that discriminated against him. If people cannot even show the slightest bit of compassion towards Muslims in the way the Lord showed compassion towards unbelievers, we will continue to be in a sorry state indeed.
L
Liquid47
Guest
While it is true that if Islam is left unrefuted, our Catholic teachings will be in vain, Islam is not an antichrist movement with evil social aspects. Whatever the degree of error its in, it is an attempt at Truth and Justice. As Catholics, we believe that before Jesus’s ministry, before Judaism, men were able to know incomplete goodness and truth, but goodness and truth nevertheless.
It still stands today that we can come to a limited understanding of goodness and truth, even when God has revealed himself fully for all to see. In that regard, Muslims have a limited understanding of goodness and truth, and its apparent in a fair few of their teachings. Before someone brings up Muslim injustices, I’m well aware of their tenets of faith that we consider immoral. At the same time, a lot of Catholics should be well aware of the laws of Islam which we would consider moral.
This is why the Catholic Church has dialogues with Islamic officials, and not Satanic cults. As Catholics, we should attempt to see the good in people, and help them on their way to Christian perfection. We should not lambast them for their shortcomings.
R
Reuben_J
Guest
That’s the standard that Jesus set for us to follow. However, in the midst of being challenged in our belief and even in the belief in Jesus himself as true God and man, most of us fall short of this standard. We need to hear more Catholic like you to show us, who are of lesser faith and incomplete in character, the way in ‘showing love and compassion towards unbelievers’ even when you are being belittled in your core belief, even when you are accused of worshiping more than one God.
Too often the stronger and the more developed Catholics are not around to argue and to explain Christianity to Muslims when it matters. It is not that we do not recognize our weakness but sometimes we are overcome by it and for that we also need support and encouragement from the brothers & sisters who are stronger in the faith. Like I said, do show us how.
God bless.
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
I’m sorry to hear, Liquid, that you believe a pontiff kissing a “holy” book that condemns Christians, declares Christ a simple, typical human being, and calls Muslims to jihad against Christians and Jews, a high point.
As for your second paragraph, that’s your opinion and you’re welcome to it. Islam has nothing in common with the Church, the Word, and the Person of Christ Jesus. It is a diabolical faith with a false prophet and very very few kernels of truth. I think when someone blindly accepts something like CCC 841 it demonstrates a lack of critical thinking and faith in Christ and a selling-out to the Great Commission. So I guess we’ll have to be divergent in thought on this one!
As for your second paragraph, that’s your opinion and you’re welcome to it. Islam has nothing in common with the Church, the Word, and the Person of Christ Jesus. It is a diabolical faith with a false prophet and very very few kernels of truth. I think when someone blindly accepts something like CCC 841 it demonstrates a lack of critical thinking and faith in Christ and a selling-out to the Great Commission. So I guess we’ll have to be divergent in thought on this one!
T
TEPO
Guest
I’m glad you agree, except that Catholic teachings are not only ours -they’re everyones since God has offered them to all. Unlike Islam, our consciences agree with them because they coincide with all of Gods “natural laws”.
But when a new religion such as Islam goes about proclaiming that older religions such as Christianity and Judaism are sinful and untrue -then we can see exactly how false Islam really is, because God would not say that. These are the aspects of Islam that we must and are obliged to refute. We must refute Jihaad… We must refute sharia law… We must refute anti-semetic and anti-christian rhetoric… We must refute unjust social treatment of others…
Again, I totally agree with attempting to see the good in others… But refuting Islam is not the same as lambasting it. Refuting is a form of charity, lambasting is a form of punishment.
The Church has always refuted the majority of Islamic values. She will continue to do so as she tirelessly sounds her trumpet of Truth.
L
Liquid47
Guest
I don’t mean to come off so harsh, friend, but it becomes unnerving when I see this sort of talk on a Catholic website.
The only reason I’m strong is that I admit I’m very weak, and so I’ve put everything I have towards God through the Catholic Church. Constantly pray, friend, and you will find peace even amongst dialogue with other faiths =)
The first thing we should believe though, is that we have received the full revelation of God through Jesus, which the apostles have passed on through the Catholic Church. When we fully believe that, we can come to understand that yes, there are other non-Christian philosophies and religions that do contain elements of truth, because if our God is the Creator of all things, and everything he created was good, then at least a limited amount of good can be found through non-revealed sources. We believe that Islam is not a religion which has true divine revelation, but of course, there are certain things Muslims believe which seem to strive towards true good.
R
r4zk4l
Guest
Absolutely. It is our duty to convert pagans. The only true religion is the one established by Jesus Christ. Outside the catholic church there is no salvation. Every other religion which sprang out after the last supper of Jesus with his apostles are false and not of God. They are protestant in nature. The word protestant originated from Martin Luther, once a Catholic Bishop who protested against the Catholic dogmas. Therefore anyone who is NOT Catholic is a protestant.
L
Liquid47
Guest
I’ll lay it out for you. I hope, that as a fellow Catholic, you are willing to accept the truth, rather than be like others who shut their eyes and ears when they hear new revelations to them.I’m sorry to hear, Liquid, that you believe a pontiff kissing a “holy” book that condemns Christians, declares Christ a simple, typical human being, and calls Muslims to jihad against Christians and Jews, a high point.
As for your second paragraph, that’s your opinion and you’re welcome to it. Islam has nothing in common with the Church, the Word, and the Person of Christ Jesus. It is a diabolical faith with a false prophet and very very few kernels of truth. I think when someone blindly accepts something like CCC 841 it demonstrates a lack of critical thinking and faith in Christ and a selling-out to the Great Commission. So I guess we’ll have to be divergent in thought on this one!
Muslims condemn Christians the same way we condemn Muslims. We condemn them for following the One God with a lack of love. They condemn us for believing the One God can be Three Persons (they also condemn Jews for not following God’s command, the way we condemn Jews for their lack of faith of God through Christ). I fear that you believe the idea of ‘condemning Christians’ is seeing you across a street and immediately assault you because you are a follower of Christ. Right now, in this thread, you condemn Muslims and Islam. That is the exact way they condemn us. Don’t be the one to cast the first stone when we’re doing the same thing they do.
Did you know that Muslims are instructed in the Qu’ran to respect the ‘people of the book’? That is to say, the Qu’ran, supposedly God speaking directly to Muhammed through Gabriel, instructed followers of Islam to not only respect Jews and Christians, but to also respect the Torah and the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament? Did you know that in certain instances, they are actually allowed to marry Christians and Jews? And yet they’re apparently instructed to kill Christians through jihad, as you say? Did you read that in their teachings yourself? I would not think so.
As for Jesus:
In Islam, Christ is not the True God in the same way that we believe Muhammed is not a true prophet. They don’t strip Jesus of his supernatural powers to spite us. Because of their limited understanding of God, they believe that God cannot be anything but a Heavenly Father. Thus they assume that Jesus was merely a prophet of God, who, by the way, they believe is coming back at the End of Days to conquer evil, not Muhammed.
As for your perception of Jihad, it is embedded in sensationalist Western media. Jihad isn’t blowing things up. That’s extremist Islamic fundamentalists that are giving followers of Islam a bad name. It’s very much like evangelical Christians who protest saying ‘God hates Fags’ or ‘Burn in Hell Bush’ or whatever nonsense they come up with. ‘Jihad’ is essentially struggle. It can be armed struggle, but it also refers to the spirit’s struggle of obeying God’s law, and that’s along the lines of Christian teaching about struggles, both physical and spiritual.
I’m not really sure where I offered an opinion in my post. The Catholic Church isn’t a Church of opinions. If you want a Church of opinions, there’s a plethora of other Protestant Churches who have ‘opined’ on the teachings of Jesus. The Catholic Church is a church based in Truth (with a capital T). There is no room for opinions, because Christ gave us all there is to know. There is either right or wrong, good and bad. That being said, The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a summary of what Catholics believe. It’s not a summary of what Catholics should believe or can choose to believe. That being said, paragraph 841 is a statement we accept, whether we like it or not, and in most regards, the reason for resentment towards certain passages in the CCC is because of our lack of understanding. Much like how atheistic homosexuals would deny the ruling of marriage in the CCC, you would deny the statement of our relations with followers of Islam. It would not be the Catholic Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, that would be in error.
gurneyhalleck1, I understand why you feel this way, as I use to feel this way too. But we can do one better than other religious or non-religious people and actually attempt to understand what people perceive as ‘the enemy’. Instead of being pessimistic cowards like the rest of the world, we can, with the grace of Our Lord, stand in the midst of things we don’t understand to other peoples’ dismay, and we can learn to understand them. And once we show them compassion, we show them Jesus, and we can allow them to choose Him over their previous limited understanding of Him.
Imagine if you could do that. Imagine if instead of condemning Muslims erroneously we could talk with them, understand their beliefs, but show them what it really is to be a Catholic. Not only would we receive praise from our brothers here on Earth, our merits will be in over-abundance in Heaven.
P
PiousTemplar
Guest
Oh ****, please forgive me God.
I always thought Allah was satan, according to Walid Shoebad. Well, he has the attributes of him ‘apparently’.
Goodness what have I done…
I always thought Allah was satan, according to Walid Shoebad. Well, he has the attributes of him ‘apparently’.
Goodness what have I done…
L
Liquid47
Guest
I agree with everything you’ve said here. However, I offer some analogies and commentary:
So we feel Islam is not a true religion because it condemned Christianity and Judaism. Were the Jews not feeling the same way when Christ defied their laws? The way in which Christ instructs us that His laws are authoritative over the laws of Moses, would appear to be similar in the way in which Islam assumes its authority over Judaism and Christianity as they believe we have fallen into error. Whatever our arguments may be - and I would gladly defend those arguments in a true Christianity and Islamic dialogue - we must understand the reasons as to why they came to that reasoning.
I have not once stated that the Church should stop refuting the errors in Islam, or any religion or non-religion for that matter. But I was not talking about the refutation of Islam here. To refute Islam, we need to understand Islam. And let’s face it: most people in this thread have not shown it. What they have shown is a limited, media sensationalized view of Islam, and in this erroneous perception, they cannot refute it. It’s like a non-Christian saying the Holy Trinity is ‘God impregnating his Daughter so she would give Birth to Himself and He would die on the Cross so he could take us to Himself again’. It’s an insulting statement, and completely ignorant. But this is the same sort of perceptions I see here in regards to Islam.
Make no mistake, I’m not saying everyone should spend time learning about it. Quite honestly, no one should, as it’s not going to lead to salvation. However, to make such statements that do not refute, but actually do lambast, only causes disharmony and resentment between both religions, all from silly misconceptions of each other.
- Status