Are Catholics easy targets?

[Jon_Hus]

My wife and I live in a semi-rural area, very quiet street. Our next store neighbors are Catholic and without exception every time I speak to them they bring up their beliefs and their church activities. They want to talk about it. The only time I mention mine is when the discussion naturally warrants it as I will not deny my faith to anyone. But believe me when I say I don’t go around starting religious conversations. I do not, and let me repeat I do not go around telling anyone that their faith (or lack of) is wrong. What I do say if the opportunity presents itself is say the Bible teaches _______ on what ever topic we are discussing.

If the individual wants to know more, I give them more. If they seem to be in distress, I stop. I’m convinced that the battle over the true faith is the Lords battle to fight, not mine. In battle, the sword does not speak or make decisions, it is only a tool. No soldier is forced to use take his sword out on the front line of battle or use it once the battle begins. If the Lord decides to use this word to bring an individual into a relationship with Him, then he will find a way to bring His word to that individual. If the Lord uses me in that battle, I’m ready, if not, He is still going to accomplish His goals with or without my help.

This is my attitude even with people that go to a church or profess a faith that would be in agreement with what I believe. Not every one who goes to my particular church believes the basic gospel message. I know that this will offend some and be misunderstood by others but the message I’m trying to communicate is that I do not go around judging others or trying to correct their religious errors. But on the other hand, I will defend my faith if led to and then I will let the chips fall where they may.

Having been around evangelical/conservative/fundamental christians for over 30 years, my personal experience in visiting homes, it only happens when those persons express an interest. Not saying that there are groups that canvas the street cold calling but I’ve never done it. I’ve also never gotten into an agressive debate with catholics or any other belief a person may hold unless again it involves defending my faith. I would not argue with a person in their own home.

I can’t say that I have never offended a catholic in a discussion in some kind of social setting. Likewise I’ve had my beliefs mocked by catholic’s in those same kinds of situations. I try to keep in mind that I came to believe what I believe because I had a desire to know what the Bible teaches and this after many years of being a church goer.

 

[Reuben_J]

So in my mind a pastor/priest should also be the teacher and witness.

We are all called to be witnesses. There are many talents or gifts but they come from the same Lord. There are many lay leaders in the Catholic Church who work with their priests to perform roles according to their talent and vocations. For example, I have a secular job by profession but I do serve the Church in my personal capacity. Many a times that means to be part of a team that include priests too. We can do what a lay person permitted to do but we cannot administer the Sacraments. There is much to do and the priest cannot do it all alone on his own.

It is unreasonable to expect more from the priest than what he is able to humanly do. I do not know about Anglican parish but Catholic parish comes in all sizes and many of them are certainly huge. To give a picture of my parish – our Cathedral can hold about fifteen hundred people at any one time and there would be four masses on a Sunday. There are two smaller sub-parish with a church each. The parish is so big that you can hardly know anyone unless they are from your own group. In this scenario it is nearly impossible for the four priests that we have there to be physically doing everything.

When roles are played accordingly it will be for the good of the parish and Catholics are sure well-fed and thus well grounded in their faith so that they do not become easy targets for conversion away from their faith.

 

[Padrej]

.

Good for you to go for the Catholic Apologetic course. But then you said you are a pastor. I do not say that Catholics cannot study in other Christian denomination but only if they are already grounded in their own knowledge of their own belief. Surely you would agree with me that there are many differences between our belief respectively.

The way I was taught in seminary was the way I also teach my seminary students. I had to know what the major denominations stance was on the issues so that when I met one and they started to say “well you think…” I could better counter with the tenants of my faith. This is one area that Fr John and I agree on in that we need to look for what we DO have in common and THEN we can have a more intelligent conversation and the things that we disagree on are not so large when we have more to agree on.
This may be another sticking point on making it easy to convert a Catholic or any other. For example the Jehovah’s Witnesses are trained to challenge points from your translation to make their point. Most denominations do not teach this. This is why so many are easy prey to them as they are easily tipped up by the falsehood because they do not know what the real is.

 

[Padrej]

We are all called to be witnesses. There are many talents or gifts but they come from the same Lord. There are many lay leaders in the Catholic Church who work with their priests to perform roles according to their talent and vocations. For example, I have a secular job by profession but I do serve the Church in my personal capacity. Many a times that means to be part of a team that include priests too. We can do what a lay person permitted to do but we cannot administer the Sacraments. There is much to do and the priest cannot do it all alone on his own.

It is unreasonable to expect more from the priest than what he is able to humanly do. I do not know about Anglican parish but Catholic parish comes in all sizes and many of them are certainly huge. To give a picture of my parish – our Cathedral can hold about fifteen hundred people at any one time and there would be four masses on a Sunday. There are two smaller sub-parish with a church each. The parish is so big that you can hardly know anyone unless they are from your own group. In this scenario it is nearly impossible for the four priests that we have there to be physically doing everything.

When roles are played accordingly it will be for the good of the parish and Catholics are sure well-fed and thus well grounded in their faith so that they do not become easy targets for conversion away from their faith.

I know that my uncle is what I would call a Eucharistic minister, I think his Catholic diocese calls them “Extraordinary Ministers” as he is lay that is trained to administer the sacraments that are already consecrated by the priest. Do you have that where you are as you seem to be saying that the laity cannot handle the consecrated elements?

Back to the subject at hand: I do agree with you when roles are played accordingly it will be for the good of the parish and Catholics are sure well-fed and thus well grounded in their faith so that they do not become easy targets for conversion away from their faith. I wonder how many “perfect” situations there are where this actually works.

 

[KathleenGee]

Squarebaby,

The most strident former Catholics never knew their faith…it is about emotional attachment…many people relate to their faith emotionally…nothing wrong with that…

But Catholic worship does not focus on public emotions. And the Church has been hit by very bad forces that have affected people’s ability to develop Christian fellowship.

 

[eucharisteo]

Well, according to the 19 year old young Hispanic man outside Catholics pray to idols. I have found a huge population of Hispanics that have been proselytized to the point they believe this nonsense. I “educated” him. I came up with my own derogatory thing that would offend a group of people and let him in on the secret that intelligent people would think he was an idiot for actually saying and believing such bigotry. I know many poor Hispanics that didn’t even have a chance it seems. They can barely read and write in their native tongue, if any, and don’t have a grasp of the English language yet talk like they are knowledgeable about our faith. I asked him how’d he feel if I said something about his faith that wasn’t true. This young man is the son of one of the roofers on my house I’m listening to right now. When I asked the owner if he was Christian he said no, Catholic. I then said that Catholics are Christian. I did the same to the young man. My method of discussing topics is to educate what’s true and let them decide over time. One day they will have to give an account.

Having grown up so confused in my family it is a wonder that I even know God.

 

[Lancer]

Several of the reply posts…and often in the Catholic media radio/talk shows/articles/blogs…you hear /see the mantra “…poorly catechized generation(s)…”. Objectively speaking…that is most emphatically true…the data is overwhelming…ranging from “tearful to criminal”!

However, my view is this: … the poorly catechized generation(s)…are clearly and simply…that way becasue of…"their strong will*** to be poorly catechized***"!!..and I put myself clearly in that category (hopefully working to correct or bend that “strong will”).

In other words…yes the Church and especially the Catholic schools at all levels have not done their mission very well…

However…I would bet that 99.9% of those “poorly catechized” Catholics…while living and practicing their faith as “poorly catechized Catholics”…have recognized a need…and learned…and…know how…to operate computers with all their “bells and whistles and gadgets”…to operate the GPS in their vehicle (and all its other hi-tech systems)…to operate in the internet/electronic business world (banking, E-Bay, etc.)…to operate their cell phones…i-phones…mp3 players…their television systems with all its “bells and whistles and gadgets”…and a “gazillion” other modern/hi-tech things/systems. Some who are in hi-tech and/or professionals careers(e.g., engineers, doctors, lawyers, professors/teachers, even fathers/mothers, homeowners, airplane drivers, police, firefighters, etc.)…they too have learned a lot of very demanding “stuff”…yet…during all those years of learning that “other stuff”…they maintain the will to remain poorly catechized Catholics.

So why all this knowledge and education about this “other stuff”…and still an “elementary-level” of catechesis…an adult Catholic with a pre-teen knowledge of their Catholic Faith? It can only be their “will to be poorly catechized”! But, we blame it on others…not them! (my point is not to beat anyone up…or myself…but without a more accurate assessment…we miss a big part of the solution…personal responsibility).

So…maybe its time to move away from that characterization of the problem…which seems to me…to put way too much blame on the "Church…the Bishops…and the Priests…the Catholic Schools…(while we can still recognizing the Bishop as the principle Shepard of our Souls and that paying for a Catholic eduction we should get our money’s worth)…but that does not p(name removed by moderator)oint the core cause of the problem…so lets say what is really wrong with the Church’s catechesis…ME…and my strong will to remain poorly catechized!

Also, on another (significant) aspect of the will to remain poorly catechized fallout (taken from Dec 2006 First Things article by Dr. Philip Jenkins:* Believing in the Global South*…

In the** Philippines**…a country of @ 92 million with (@ 74 million Catholics…(close to the US Catholic population of 68 million))…more Catholics were baptized in the Philippines.…in the year 2000…than in **France **( @ 65 million population with @ 35 million Catholics), Spain ( @ 45 million population with @ 34 million Catholics), **Italy **( @ 60 million population with @ 53 million Catholics), Poland ( @ 38 million population with 34 million Catholics)…combined!

Also…In 1900 there were 1.9 million Catholics in Africa…in 2000 there were 130 million Catholics in Africa…a 6700% increase. By** 2025** (just 15 yrs away)…60% of all Catholics will live in Africa and Latin America…not counting the Philippines, China, India and all of Asia. **By 2050…European and Euro-American Catholics will be a small segment of a Catholic church dominated by Filipinos, Mexicans, Brazilians, Nigerians and Congolese…
**firstthings.com/article/2007/01/believing-in-the-global-south-17
(Subscription required)

Lastly, I believe that all of the above data-projections…have and are being driven by three key Western factors:…our (1) culture of death (legal rights for abortions on demand and contraception mentality (children a problem/inconvenience) and the destruction of marriage (no fault divorce and homosexual redefinition of marriage)…**(2) Radical secularization of our culture and governments**** (**God is just not that important in our daily lives and the tyranny of relativism which dominates our culture)…and **(3) Me…**my strong will to remain a poorly catechized Catholic and my strong will to be a “Cafeteria-Catholic” regarding the Church’s teachings on many issues of faith and morals!

For your consideration…
Pax Christi

Italy and Poland combined

 

[Reuben_J]

I know that my uncle is what I would call a Eucharistic minister, I think his Catholic diocese calls them “Extraordinary Ministers” as he is lay that is trained to administer the sacraments that are already consecrated by the priest. Do you have that where you are as you seem to be saying that the laity cannot handle the consecrated elements?

Back to the subject at hand: I do agree with you when roles are played accordingly it will be for the good of the parish and Catholics are sure well-fed and thus well grounded in their faith so that they do not become easy targets for conversion away from their faith. I wonder how many “perfect” situations there are where this actually works.

Glad to clarify. One of the Sacraments – the Holy Eucharist (or Holy Mass) needs to have a celebrant in order that it can be held. Without a celebrant no complete mass is possible. The celebrant is the priest. Then you will have fifteen hundred people in the congregation worshiping together in that mass.

There are many things that happen during a mass. One of it is Holy Communion where ‘eligible’ parishioners step up to receive the hosts. Theoretically only a priest can hand out these. Practically it will take ages for a single celebrant to give out even if 80% of the fifteen hundred people go up to receive the Holy Communion.

Extraordinary Communion Ministers are those from the laity who are appointed and can distribute the Holy Communion during that same mass. No formal training is required except of course there may be briefing in how they go about it. Basically it is handing out the Holy Communion (the consecrated hosts) to help the celebrant. ‘Administering’ is the word that confused you I think.

I was not talking about this in my previous post. I am sorry I take it for granted that you have good knowledge about Catholic Sacraments. I was talking more about the life in a parish; the mass included of course, the spiritual development of the parishioners.

As I said, in two years, if a Catholic attends mass daily (three years for Sunday mass), the whole Book of the Bible is covered – meaning proclaimed and preached during the homily of the mass. That is quite awesome, isn’t it? But they may need to learn more about the words – pondering and sharing about it. That they cannot do during the mass. So you need to facilitate this kind of activities outside of the mass. So you have groups and activities that cater for the achieving of this objective. And of course there are many more. Spiritual development is much more and has many aspects that need to be addressed.

Now the priests may not be able to be involved in all these programs. Seminars, retreats, prayer gatherings, Bible studies, youth program, adults program, RCIA program, confirmation programs and multitude more. This is where the priests need to be assisted and where lay people play some active roles to make all these happen.

Witnesses you say? Sure. Teachers you say? Sure. Not just the priests but all who have the gifts should do accordingly.

 

[Jehoshua]

Jehosh, the media is not Protestant, rather it is secularist to the core (and a certain type of secularist to boot). But you are right in a way: the secularists have for decades used all kinds of venues for their false religion (what I call “stealth catechizing”). The educational system, movies, TV, Rock & Rap “music,” the judiciary, etc.—all are vehicles for their secular baspel. They are aggressive missionaries.

I never said the media was protestant, merely that it mainly occured in majority protestant country’s or country’s with a mainly protestant sub-culture.

The rest of your statement i totally agree with.

 

[Berean2]

I never said the media was protestant, merely that it mainly occured in majority protestant country’s or country’s with a mainly protestant sub-culture.

No?

Effectively through the media there was messaging encouraging people to fall into heresy [your own Pope no longer calls Protestantism a heresy] and join protestantism by painting the Church hierarchy in a bad light and painting this renegad [sic] priest as some sort of here.[sic] From this I deduced that even if protestants or protestant societies don’t tangibly go off to try and convert catholics (mormon style) they still try to subtly lead us away.

{my emphases} Recall that the media make the same sort of big stink about folks like Swaggert, the Bakkers, Ted Haggard, etc., so their crusade’s not just aimed @ Catholicism: the secularist media hates ANYone whose faith roots in the Bible (in contrast, they love someone like the Dalai Lama).

 

[Ismael]

Recall that the media make the same sort of big stink about folks like Swaggert, the Bakkers, Ted Haggard, etc., so their crusade’s not just aimed @ Catholicism: the secularist media hates ANYone whose faith roots in the Bible (in contrast, they love someone like the Dalai Lama).

Well the secular media hates Christians, in particular Catholics and the Pope, however.

This is also because the Catholic Church is a much recognizable target and has a large population. If you say ‘protestants’ it can mean any of the 30.000+ churches around.

Of course centuries of anti-catholicsm perpetrated by protestants does not really hel either.

 

[FrJohnB]

Well the secular media hates Christians, in particular Catholics and the Pope, however.

This is also because the Catholic Church is a much recognizable target and has a large population. If you say ‘protestants’ it can mean any of the 30.000+ churches around.

Of course centuries of anti-catholicsm perpetrated by protestants does not really hel either.

With all due respect what about the anti-Protestant things that we have done as well. This street goes BOTH ways. If we had not had venom either those who are enlightened thinkers may not be leaving us as well. I have seen on this forum many times when a Catholic blogger writes something about a Protestant it 9 times out of 10 is Anti Lutheran and what they put forth is not what half of today’s Lutherans believe to start with. When we do this how does that make us look? We should be looking for what we do have in common and then what IS different will not seem so bad and then we can have meaningful dialogue. Truth be told I would not, if I was laity, want to be part of ANY church that attacks another. I wonder how many of the converts who left the Catholic church have left because they found out that what we have been saying about the Protestants is a half truth or non truth?

 

[Padrej]

With all due respect what about the anti-Protestant things that we have done as well. This street goes BOTH ways. If we had not had venom either those who are enlightened thinkers may not be leaving us as well. I have seen on this forum many times when a Catholic blogger writes something about a Protestant it 9 times out of 10 is Anti Lutheran and what they put forth is not what half of today’s Lutherans believe to start with. When we do this how does that make us look? We should be looking for what we do have in common and then what IS different will not seem so bad and then we can have meaningful dialogue. Truth be told I would not, if I was laity, want to be part of ANY church that attacks another. I wonder how many of the converts who left the Catholic church have left because they found out that what we have been saying about the Protestants is a half truth or non truth?

I tell you something else that is a shove the parishioner out the door to another church is gossip. Let that run a muck in a church for a while where people run down this one or that one or even the pastor and see how fast people become easy targets for another church.

 

[mark_a]

In other words no one targets Catholics alone, they just might use a specific strategy when targeting Catholics vs. targeting other groups.

Targeting Catholics is the biggest bang for the buck. 25% of the US population is Catholic. Targeting Catholics vs. also-rans will put more people in the pews and more $ in the collection. Period.

 

[dianaiad]

How do you justify trying to convert Catholics or any other group of Christian to come into your church?

Because we have more truth for them to learn? Because we believe we’re right?

I’ll tell you what: you ask why Catholics send missionaries out to anybody, and why they fought what they termed heresies so strongly–and sometimes violently–and you’ll have your answer.

People send missionaries, or share their beliefs, because they honestly think they have something very special to offer: something others need, and would recieve joy from recieving.

Pretty simple, all things considered.

 

[eucharisteo]

I tell you something else that is a shove the parishioner out the door to another church is gossip. Let that run a muck in a church for a while where people run down this one or that one or even the pastor and see how fast people become easy targets for another church.

Been there, done that. We were disfellowshipped from a congregation down in San Marcos, TX, in 1993 even though I had sent a letter to the elders removing ourselves out form under their care. We tried many congregations in our faith and even tried Max Lucado’s congregation a few times. But that was a whole new interesting topic to get into. I was ready to revert back to Catholicism, but for all the wrong reasons. It was like I was truly Protestant and was looking for some place to run. I even thought about abandoning my wife, but didn’t have the heart to do it knowing what it would have done to her. Though we were not married in the Church, something that caused me grief later on in particular, I worked really hard to belief it was a valid marriage, not really understanding the Catholic view of marriage… I thought about returning to the seminary to help fight the heresies running a muck in the Church. Prior to marrying my wife I wanted to become a thorn in the bishops side to get them to admit there were bad boys being tossed around from parish to parish. Talk about a thrist for pain. I felt that if the bishops aren’t going to do the right thing then maybe I could become a preacher would would do it for them. I became an easy target because my faith was being challenged in a way I couldn’t face because I hadn’t the tools to defend her…

 

[LaSalle]

To be blunt with you, you ARE NOT privy to the conversations that I have had with these persons as I have.

No, you’re right, we were not. But then again, you don’t know Catholic teaching either … so how would you know it was NOT a lack of catechesis? I’ll show you what I mean -

One of them took her father to the Catholic church for mass 2 weeks ago and returned with a rather lengthy email on how the priest did not preach on the gospel or any of the other readings but rather was giving an impassioned plea to give liberally as the diocese is facing 6 lawsuits which have bankrupted it over priest misconduct. Her father (He is yet to convert) is now coming to my church for the same purpose, his words to me, “I expect to hear a sermon, not begging for money.” How would you interpret this if you were in my shoes?

How would I interpret this? Simple - the priest was asking for money. His homily had nothing to do with church doctrine.

You also admitted that Protestants had scandals too, right? Would it make sense for people to leave their churches because of these scandals?

Would you disagree that E=mc2 if Einstein was an adulterer? Just because he may have been a sinner doesn’t automatically mean he cannot come up with objective truths.

The same thing applies to the Church. People will sin, but don’t leave because of Judas, stay because of peter! (man, that Judas incident was more scandalous! Can you imagine? “God” chose a man to be His top 12 only to have that person betray Him and have Him killed? Man eh! I’m sure not a few Jews were going, 'Man, if Jesus was God, wouldn’t He have known better than to have Judas as a disciple???")

 

[LaSalle]

Bottom line? - Yes, we’re easy targets.

So we must make sure that we know our faith well and hand on our faith to our next generation well. That way, rather than become hard targets, we won’t even become targets! We can then bring them into Jesus’ One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church instead!

 

[FrJohnB]

No, you’re right, we were not. But then again, you don’t know Catholic teaching either … so how would you know it was NOT a lack of catechesis? I’ll show you what I mean -

 

[Reuben_J]

The message you posted would have been better sent as a personal one rather than one to try to inflame an already hot button issue.

This is all unfortunate. Perhaps a lesson is learnt from all this. Ultimately it always calls for wisdom and discretion – there is a time and place for everything.

This is the limitation of internet discussion. Unlike real life debate or discussion where lots of things can be clarified by an exchanged of few words but in internet, words are written and whatever is disclosed are precious. In other word, information especially about each other is a precious commodity.

At first I thought you were a Catholic priest then later I thought you were Anglican and later still I am informed you are a Catholic priest after all. So we can see the difficulty in knowing who we are talking to in an internet discussion.

This thread comes out as quite confrontational as one poster noted. Surely with all the tell tale signs already exhibited one needs to tread very cautiously here. It will be an injustice to all concerned when a post is not to be responded to in a way another poster feels.

I thought I am the only one whose nerve is touched but apparently other Catholics feel the same way too.

I don’t know, perhaps like Father said, the comment should be made through PM in the first place so that it will save us all the blushes and the trauma of arguing like hell for nothing.