Are Catholics easy targets?

[Padrej]

No, you’re right, we were not. But then again, you don’t know Catholic teaching either … so how would you know it was NOT a lack of catechesis? I’ll show you what I mean -

How would I interpret this? Simple - the priest was asking for money. His homily had nothing to do with church doctrine.

You also admitted that Protestants had scandals too, right? Would it make sense for people to leave their churches because of these scandals?

Would you disagree that E=mc2 if Einstein was an adulterer? Just because he may have been a sinner doesn’t automatically mean he cannot come up with objective truths.

The same thing applies to the Church. People will sin, but don’t leave because of Judas, stay because of peter! (man, that Judas incident was more scandalous! Can you imagine? “God” chose a man to be His top 12 only to have that person betray Him and have Him killed? Man eh! I’m sure not a few Jews were going, 'Man, if Jesus was God, wouldn’t He have known better than to have Judas as a disciple???")

With all due respect how do you know what Catholic education I do and do not not have? as Fr John said the pulpit is not for begging money, it is for preaching.

You were not privy to the conversations that I had with my parishioners as to why they left the Catholic church, and I have also stated that if a person is leaving that they will find the worst excuse so that they can justify the move.

If I went to a church that the pastor used the pulpit to beg for money during the time that was reserved for teaching, I would be finding another church as well. I know of NO seminary Catholic or Protestant that instructs its students that this is proper. You might say that I would become the easy target then as well. I go to church for the fellowship and mostly to be fed not only on the sacraments but on God’s word.

 

[Reuben_J]

If I went to a church that the pastor used the pulpit to beg for money during the time that was reserved for teaching, I would be finding another church as well. I know of NO seminary Catholic or Protestant that instructs its students that this is proper. You might say that I would become the easy target then as well. I go to church for the fellowship and mostly to be fed not only on the sacraments but on God’s word.

With due respect, Padre. I don’t usually go to Protestant service but once I was dragged along to an international conference organized by Protestant group. In one of the session, almost half an hour was devoted in an appeal for donation.

Priest should have a leeway of appealing for donation during a mass simply because that’s where you’d catch them. Usually that is done during the announcement. But sometimes it could be mentioned during the homily – after all, the priest as a shepherd is to address the lives of the parishioners. Are they praying enough? Are they giving enough? Are they going to the church enough? Are their families in good order? All of these can be preached through scriptural reference. of course. A priest who drives Catholics away until they convert to another religion must be very much below par.

I do not know of the ability of the priest mentioned but generally boring sermon is hardly a cause to leave the faith. Ok, the one you cite - inappropriate use of the pulpit.

Even from this forum, ex-Catholics would cite their reason for leaving mainly on belief and doctrine, and slightly less - because Catholic parishes are rather cold. In my own experience with such cases, the majority are lack of faith and having personal problem with the Church. Divorce, squabble, leadership, and personal differences that are blown into open conflict and dissension. None because of boring and incapable priest or other priest personal problem.

 

[eucharisteo]

that is a very confrontational and accusatory question, to whom are you directing it? Why not ask, rather, a specific question of a specific person or group about a specific situation…

I love the way Catholics pass judgment or degrade their fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, whether Catholic of whatever. You make such harsh judgments without even trying to see where I’m coming from. You seem to believe I’ve been Catholic all my life. Though I am Catholic now I still possess much of my former church of Christ spirituality. But that is not the reason I ask.

I know for a fact that many [not all] fundamentalist evangelicals proselytize. This is part of the dozens reason we converted to Catholicism. We were tired of always being called to evangelize Apartment Dwellers, mostly poor Hispanic, many of whom are Catholic. I was asked to lead it and was on board until God humbled me and brought me to a place where I had no choice but to listen to a therapist tell me that I needed to choose a different church because ours is so judgmental. I shared a life with Christians from all walks of life in an environment that allowed me to see the sincerity in their hearts. I even saw Catholics that were suffering from major depression. Interestingly, most of them perceived being harshly treated by people at their prospective churches. Long story short I realized that my faith was shattered over several events that led to a near major breakdown with a clear lack of charity from our elders that bombarded us with seriously personal probing questions about who we were, who our family was, how we came to their church, etc. My wife had already broke down several times and this was the straw that broke the camels back for us…especially me. I was ready to walk away from my life, disappear from everyone I knew, including my wife and children. However I knew I could not do that, nor could I take my own life so I sought professional help to help me deal with closure from parents from almost opposite ends of the Christian faith, fundamental Catholic and fundamental Protestant [anti-Catholic]. Bot died and I was once free again to figure it out. With the death of my FIL we were able for the first time to evaluate what we believed. This was in 2004 right before I was about to be deployed with many injuries from active duty many years prior. I was trying to become a military chaplain but found my faith shattered once again. It took 2 more years when we broke with our church of Christ faith to try a non-denomination hoping for non-proselytizers, but found out very quickly that most of them were former Catholics and they didn’t seem to believe in anything other than Jesus is Lord. Baptisms were done in the name of Jesus, not the trinitarian formula. We were shocked and almost immediately the Lord used their pastor to open me up to looking for some information I had only heard about, but thought it had been mostly destroyed.

What I found was libraries of early Christian writings and even more that I had never heard about - ECF. I read my heart out and turned white as a ghost. I thought to myself “OMG, what have I done!!!” I was so shocked that Monday that by the following Sunday, with my wife’s consent, we visited a nearby Catholic church [that means went to mass]. It was strange and typical from the 70’s and 80’s that I loathed the lack of making it what it should be. But my wife chose another parish to try while I tried to convince her to try an Orthodox Church or a Methodist or Episcopalian. We were looking for something that looked like an apostolic church because I couldn’t see how in the world a Catholic church could possibly be the one true church. I was commited to talking her into a nearby Orthodox congregation that would not be so obvious to her mom and other large family with many deacons, preachers and elders. It would have been a disaster in my view. They’d blame it on me - and they do. But once I contacted priests in both Catholic and Orthodox faiths I came to believe over a six month period of prayerful study that, as strange as it may seem, the Catholic Church has the correct teachings. But why in the world are so many Catholics so confused, illiterate biblical speaking and so liberal, against Church teaching? That’s the big mystery to me to this day. How could God allow His Church to go into such a major heresy over the years so many times? Still praying for truth and understanding. I finally realized all the things I had issues with in the beginning were both taught in the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox faiths. Protestants really do mean well, but they lack the motivation to actually dig deep into the ECF and avoid it once they realize it contradicts much of their objections to Catholic/Orthodox teaching.

My wife’s entire family is church of Christ, Campbellite movement…a church “restoration movement” as opposed to a “reformation movement”. Our conversion has placed us in a very awkward position with our families, once again for me. They blame me being the former practicing Catholic they converted. I’m closer to my wife’s family. I have to say that even though they were and are sincere about their faith they have a very twisted and bleak ideas that are shocking if I shared them. They condemn us to hell, but without saying it now, yet allow their boys to look at porn and dismiss it as a phase - just one of many. Now, no description accurately describes all of any group. I’m just talking about our own families. It’s hypocrisy whether one realizes it or not. And to pass such harsh judgments towards others not of their faith is very twisted.

 

[eucharisteo]

No, you’re right, we were not. But then again, you don’t know Catholic teaching either … so how would you know it was NOT a lack of catechesis? I’ll show you what I mean -

How would I interpret this? Simple - the priest was asking for money. His homily had nothing to do with church doctrine.

You also admitted that Protestants had scandals too, right? Would it make sense for people to leave their churches because of these scandals?

Would you disagree that E=mc2 if Einstein was an adulterer? Just because he may have been a sinner doesn’t automatically mean he cannot come up with objective truths.

The same thing applies to the Church. People will sin, but don’t leave because of Judas, stay because of peter! (man, that Judas incident was more scandalous! Can you imagine? “God” chose a man to be His top 12 only to have that person betray Him and have Him killed? Man eh! I’m sure not a few Jews were going, 'Man, if Jesus was God, wouldn’t He have known better than to have Judas as a disciple???")

Frankly, you don’t know what you’re talking about. You weren’t subjected to the same life we were. I was a victim and 9 years later led to me “looking for truth”. Catechesis was horrible and the priests I confronted would not try to catechize me nor explain why they wanted me to attend some of those strange meetings called RCIA or whatever. They were not bible classes, nor did they go into heavy explanations that helped me see the facts. We were expected to blindly believe, which made no sense. However, 20 years later I discovered that our particular RCIA program in our parish was extremely unusual and void from heretical teaching by a man who is now under the bishop, even over clergy. I’d love to give his name but it would identify my exact location. So many parishoners know our story, yet don’t even know who we are when we are around. As I feel called to tell my particular story their jaws drop and I see amazement in their eyes. Were were very blessed by God to have experienced all of the very strange and difficult conversion experiences all balled up in one. Long story that seems to inspire people to dig deeper in their faith.

 

[Padrej]

With due respect, Padre. I don’t usually go to Protestant service but once I was dragged along to an international conference organized by Protestant group. In one of the session, almost half an hour was devoted in an appeal for donation.

Priest should have a leeway of appealing for donation during a mass simply because that’s where you’d catch them. Usually that is done during the announcement. But sometimes it could be mentioned during the homily – after all, the priest as a shepherd is to address the lives of the parishioners. Are they praying enough? Are they giving enough? Are they going to the church enough? Are their families in good order? All of these can be preached through scriptural reference. of course. A priest who drives Catholics away until they convert to another religion must be very much below par.

I do not know of the ability of the priest mentioned but generally boring sermon is hardly a cause to leave the faith. Ok, the one you cite - inappropriate use of the pulpit.

Even from this forum, ex-Catholics would cite their reason for leaving mainly on belief and doctrine, and slightly less - because Catholic parishes are rather cold. In my own experience with such cases, the majority are lack of faith and having personal problem with the Church. Divorce, squabble, leadership, and personal differences that are blown into open conflict and dissension. None because of boring and incapable priest or other priest personal problem.

The problem this person had was that the plea came during the announcements (which as you agree is appropriate) but it was also the entire subject of the homily to beg for money to cover the lawsuits of the diocese. I DO AGREE with you that a pastor can use the pulpit to say, are you doing your Christian duty in giving as the church needs help. However when the whole service is on the sins that money needs to be thrown at to cover, I personally would be angered. Where is the teaching?

Let me give you an example from a Protestant church I visited one time that was a turn off for me. The church was about to collect the tithes and offerings. Now before this occurred the pastor gave a 20 minute “sermon” on “do you want a gross blessing or net blessing” as to how a person should be giving and that if a person did not give on the larger amount regardless of whatever debt he/she was in that you are not going to be blessed by God. Needles to say my money went to another charity.

I hope this makes my point a bit clearer on why this former Catholic was angered and why I may be having a new convert in her father.

 

[eucharisteo]

The problem this person had was that the plea came during the announcements (which as you agree is appropriate) but it was also the entire subject of the homily to beg for money to cover the lawsuits of the diocese. I DO AGREE with you that a pastor can use the pulpit to say, are you doing your Christian duty in giving as the church needs help. However when the whole service is on the sins that money needs to be thrown at to cover, I personally would be angered. Where is the teaching?

Let me give you an example from a Protestant church I visited one time that was a turn off for me. The church was about to collect the tithes and offerings. Now before this occurred the pastor gave a 20 minute “sermon” on “do you want a gross blessing or net blessing” as to how a person should be giving and that if a person did not give on the larger amount regardless of whatever debt he/she was in that you are not going to be blessed by God. Needles to say my money went to another charity.

I hope this makes my point a bit clearer on why this former Catholic was angered and why I may be having a new convert in her father.

I was having a really hard time returning to Catholicism and was seeking becoming Orthodox. The priests that I spoke with on the issue I had with a priest making a pass at me and celebate priesthood was dealt with honestly. They said that that is not a reason to run from being Catholic or becoming Orthodox. They placed the emphasis on doctrinal beliefs and discussed it. It was their own doing that helped me to realize the truth. Why are you, as a priest, not doing the same? I assume that since you’re an Anglican minister, you are a priest. Pardon me if I got something wrong here. I’d also like to know if you are addressed as “father” for the sake of rendering respect to your title. My niece is Episcopalian but goes to Catholic masses. I can only hope she isn’t receiving, but have a strong feeling she does.

 

[Padrej]

Even from this forum, ex-Catholics would cite their reason for leaving mainly on belief and doctrine, and slightly less - because Catholic parishes are rather cold. In my own experience with such cases, the majority are lack of faith and having personal problem with the Church. Divorce, squabble, leadership, and personal differences that are blown into open conflict and dissension. None because of boring and incapable priest or other priest personal problem.

I take it from this that you enjoy being in a “cold” church? I want to go where I can be made to feel warm and welcome. I can remember when I was in my “searching days” the reason that I DID NOT choose the Catholic church was not over its doctrines but rather because it was not welcoming to me as a stranger/visitor. I visited 5 Catholic churches in the area at the time and was not made to feel as if they wanted my presence as part of their church. Would you want to go where you are not welcome or made to feel that way?
One thing that I have noticed about SOME Protestant churches is that visitors are usually swamped to be made to feel welcomed. Some even have people set aside as “ministry of welcome” types who sit with a new visitor and make them feel at home. The Catholic church in my area could certainly take a clue or two from Protestants in this area. My experience: If you are cold you loose people, if you are welcoming and warm you gain them.

 

[Padrej]

I was having a really hard time returning to Catholicism and was seeking becoming Orthodox. The priests that I spoke with on the issue I had with a priest making a pass at me and celebate priesthood was dealt with honestly. They said that that is not a reason to run from being Catholic or becoming Orthodox. They placed the emphasis on doctrinal beliefs and discussed it. It was their own doing that helped me to realize the truth. Why are you, as a priest, not doing the same? I assume that since you’re an Anglican minister, you are a priest. Pardon me if I got something wrong here. I’d also like to know if you are addressed as “father” for the sake of rendering respect to your title. My niece is Episcopalian but goes to Catholic masses. I can only hope she isn’t receiving, but have a strong feeling she does.

Excellent questions. What I am addressing here is the reasons that persons left the Catholic church and are now under my wing so to speak. I would agree with you that they should have been told as you were about the doctrinal beliefs. However, when a doctrinal belief is explained in the light of misconduct still fresh on the mind, to SOME it would not matter how doctrinally pure the church was. In their eyes the priest who is supposed to be the representative of Christ of “altar Christos” did what he did it wiped out the doctrine. Picture if Jesus (whom the priest represented) attempted to molest, would you want to follow Jesus? I know that that analogy is way out there but it makes the point.

I do as a priest/bishop instruct in doctrine. As the old saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. If a person is set on leaving the Catholic faith for whatever reason am I supposed to say, “now their doctrine says this and you should be following it if you want to be called a good Christian;” or should I bind their wounds and if they want to return let them? If I read your post correctly the latter is what happened to you so you remained Catholic. My primary concern is feeding the sheep not causing any more trauma to them that come to me for help.

You can call me Father, bishop, padre it does not matter to me as I have never been one on formalities. Fr John the catholic priest refers to me as padre.

 

[FrJohnB]

I was having a really hard time returning to Catholicism and was seeking becoming Orthodox. The priests that I spoke with on the issue I had with a priest making a pass at me and celebate priesthood was dealt with honestly. They said that that is not a reason to run from being Catholic or becoming Orthodox. They placed the emphasis on doctrinal beliefs and discussed it. It was their own doing that helped me to realize the truth. Why are you, as a priest, not doing the same? I assume that since you’re an Anglican minister, you are a priest. Pardon me if I got something wrong here. I’d also like to know if you are addressed as “father” for the sake of rendering respect to your title. My niece is Episcopalian but goes to Catholic masses. I can only hope she isn’t receiving, but have a strong feeling she does.

You are lucky that someone instructed you the way that they did. Maybe if more who are leaving were treated that way we also would not loose the faithful.

On your niece. I know that if she is it can be viewed as to her detriment. BUT, there are sadly many Roman Catholic priests who do not care and give the Eucharist to anyone who comes with the idea “let God sort it out.” In that case the problem would be with the priest not her. In a prior conversation with Padrej he was attending at the basilica at Notre Dame and there was NO warning against non Catholics receiving. I to have experienced similar when visiting other Catholic churches. If the priests have that cavalier of an attitude over sacraments why would the faithful want to respect them or stay in our faith for that matter?

 

[eucharisteo]

Excellent questions. …quote]
I’ll send you and Fr. John my brief story so you get the bigger picture. In brief, I actually left the Catholic Church for 18 years and became very anti-Catholic always proselytizing them in particular because I began to believe the lies about the Catholic Church that it was apostate and the Catholics were being told lies by the clergy. I believed it. Mom was anti-Catholic and dad was SSPX on steroids. I attended 12 different schools before I graduated from high school. Why is that important to know? It’s because a person can not really learn being tossed back and forth with chaos going on all the time. It’s an emotional roller coaster and someone like me that needs peace to actually learn. I lived in shock all my life. The most stable life I ever had was after I enlisted in the Army. I was 24 when I joined and by the time I actually entered I was 25, which was a nightmare for a while. I felt like I was on a different planet.

I had decided to return to the seminary while stationed overseas and during my time in the military someone was always proselytizing someone. Even a chaplain did it while we were in an NCO course stateside. It made me angry and I left offended by things he said. I talked to my chaplain, catholic, to go back to the seminary and he helped me, but later on I met my wife and everything went haywire for me. He family told me things that jibed with something I learned as a child that hung with me my entire life. Mom allowed me to visit Protestant churches only in my childhood. One of them turns out to be the Church of Christ, which has some simliar beliefs as Catholics. They said so many things that were actually true but used words like "how could they be the real church if x, y and z continues to happen. They made good sense and since my faith was already waivering on what happened to me in the seminary I fell prey. I went to my chaplain and he told me that I could never understand because I was a laity. It offended me and later I talked about the steps to get married to my wife. He told me I’d need 3 dispensations. I was taught that “the Church no longer does that” or “teaches that”. Well this confirmed the lies I felt that had been told me all of my life. Catholics teachings not jibing meant that someone was wrong, lying or worst the bishops didn’t care enough to actually stop it and teach us correct. You see, who in the world is going to believe anyone that allows lying? Needless to say I fell hard and fast. I nearly lost my faith in God and so I hung onto my wife’s faith to literally save my life. I felt like I would die any moment. It destroyed my faith realizing all of this at one time.

I married in her church and with her preacher. In fact, I was preparing to become a preacher prior to reverting back in 2006 but God pulled my world apart by exposing me to the Orthodox priests that showed me how my thinking was wrong. YOu see, I didn’t trust Catholic priests. But because of my wife’s desire to consider Catholicism for the very first time in her life I felt I should go back to Rome [Latin Rite Catholic] while I discerned the priesthood once again as I studied Orthodoxy. Well, after much studying and realizing I could never convert I lost my vocation to the priesthood. Honestly, I submit God is in control, but woe to those that got in the way. I often feel I missed out on my true vocation but God gave me an alternate one. I do believe in the doctrines taught by the Catholic Church and hold to them. Those doctrines were actually also taught to me by the Orthodox priests because once ordained marriage is not an option. I am discerning the diaconate now and because of my children’s age feel like we need to wait a bit longer. But I’m not young anymore, 49 this summer. I’ll be lucky to see 70. This time my wife actually supports me. The women running the deacon program were very rude and they bother me. I find the entire situation odd. Men should be running it because it is a male ministry. I believe that many women have jumped on some secular band wagon of dissenting and these women spoke condescendingly to me and others that complained. We all feel that deacons should be running the program if not priests. So it bothers us because they have been so rude - insulting us and deacons in general. I put it off for this reason and my pastor made a mistake and forwarded my email to him to someone who sent it to these ladies. My only option now seems to be to wait until they pass on or finally retire. They’re quite up in years.

I’ve has so many bad experiences even after returning to the Catholic Church. But not even that can make me leave now that I’ve studied and continue to study ECF, history, theology, etc. I’m Catholic till I die. I get tired of listening to Catholics proselytize Protestants too. It’s annoying. If we were living our Catholic faith then I believe more Protestants might actually take us serious and convert as a result of our Christ like example.

Let’s ask this plain, are you a priest or a bishop? If not then what are you? People have called me all sorts of names, some of which I can not post here.

 

[Reuben_J]

The problem this person had was that the plea came during the announcements (which as you agree is appropriate) but it was also the entire subject of the homily to beg for money to cover the lawsuits of the diocese. I DO AGREE with you that a pastor can use the pulpit to say, are you doing your Christian duty in giving as the church needs help. However when the whole service is on the sins that money needs to be thrown at to cover, I personally would be angered. Where is the teaching?

This is quite abnormal to happen during a mass but maybe the local situation necessitates some action to be taken. I am sure I will be quite upset if I am being bombarded with it mass after mass in the parish. What some of the mature parishioners can do is to bring the issue to their Bishop and voice out their displeasure at how the priest conducts the mass or even runs the parish.

Let me give you an example from a Protestant church I visited one time that was a turn off for me. The church was about to collect the tithes and offerings. Now before this occurred the pastor gave a 20 minute “sermon” on “do you want a gross blessing or net blessing” as to how a person should be giving and that if a person did not give on the larger amount regardless of whatever debt he/she was in that you are not going to be blessed by God. Needles to say my money went to another charity.

I hope this makes my point a bit clearer on why this former Catholic was angered and why I may be having a new convert in her father.

Granted, there are such things happening in parishes and it’s not always agreeable to many of us.

However, the situation that arise from the particular Catholic parish that you mentioned stems from local problem that is difficult to tackle and compounded perhaps by the way the priest goes about trying to address it. This is where a priest who is in tandem with the reality of the people is urgently required. Sometimes their formation at the seminary plays a lot in determining what kind of a priest they will be.

I can see a subtle trend in my archdiocese where seminarians, deacons and young priests participating in lay people activities. One day my wife came back and was surprised to see one of our priests following a program organized by a movement but catering mainly for new and lapsed Catholics. So I told her, it is good – because when he is more settled he would be too busy attending to his priestly duty and neglect to be with the people.

 

[Reuben_J]

I take it from this that you enjoy being in a “cold” church? I want to go where I can be made to feel warm and welcome. I can remember when I was in my “searching days” the reason that I DID NOT choose the Catholic church was not over its doctrines but rather because it was not welcoming to me as a stranger/visitor. I visited 5 Catholic churches in the area at the time and was not made to feel as if they wanted my presence as part of their church. Would you want to go where you are not welcome or made to feel that way?
One thing that I have noticed about SOME Protestant churches is that visitors are usually swamped to be made to feel welcomed. Some even have people set aside as “ministry of welcome” types who sit with a new visitor and make them feel at home. The Catholic church in my area could certainly take a clue or two from Protestants in this area. My experience: If you are cold you loose people, if you are welcoming and warm you gain them.

No, I rather my church be lively and people linger around after mass and having fellowship. However it is not always like that and people today seems to be busier than perhaps two generations ago. As a little kid, I got time to play a bit as my grandpa having his chat with his friends after the mass.

I am pretty sure one of the posters here in CAF left the Church because she found the friendliness was missing. And she liked what she found in a Protestant church. This subject is covered widely in the other thread. The gist of the discussion is that Catholic parish can improve to be more warm. The other point is about the mass being the centre of worship and so there are other activities outside the mass that facilitated other needs.

We keep it in mind too that Protestants tend to ‘sell’ their church while Catholics do not have the need to do so since Catholics come to worship in fulfilling their obligation.

Frankly, it does not matter for me whether people are warm or not because when I go to a mass my purpose is to fulfill my obligation and worship. I would drop in for mass in different countries if I am travelling and it does not bother me if people do not greet me because my purpose is to go for the mass. But then that’s just me. Some people are extrovert, they like socializing before or after the mass. It shouldn’t be a reason to leave the Church. But yes, we can always improve and I think that’s done in my sub-parish, the church being smaller. They identify new-comers before the mass start and give them souvenirs. Yes, something can be done to improve to make the church more warm.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I’ve seen a lot of posts about this topic, or supposedly about this topic, notwithstanding the moderator’s valiant efforts to keep it on point. It appears that the subject of this thread has been derailed to a discussion about the priest abuse scandals.

To address the opening post, in regards to one faith targeting members of another faith for conversion, this has undeniably occurred, whether those involved want to admit it or not. I have read in article on this very forum about the fact that the #1 source of converts to the heresy of Mormonism are Catholics. Clearly these were poorly-catechized Catholics, regardless of their background, because NO CATHOLIC who truly knew, understood and believed their faith would ever leave for any other faith. Your faith is not about people, its about the Truth. No one who truly knew and understood the truth could leave for something less.

To address the derailed topic ~ the scandals ~ how many of all of the sincere Christian people who have posted to this thread ~ both Catholic and non-Catholic ~ have prayed for these priests who have sinned so grievously? This is not a rhetorical question, I’m very sincere about raising this point. It’s easy to pray for people that we like and approve of, much harder to pray for those of whom we disapprove or those we just dislike.

All of us fall short and some fall shorter than others (at least in our eyes if not in God’s) so when we are tempted to sit in judgment in this particular situation are we also praying for these obviously misguided men? I’m not saying any of this to excuse the actions of anyone, but I am saying that since we are REQUIRED to leave judgment to GOD (no matter what Christian faith tradition we subscribe to) shouldn’t we spend at least as much effort praying for these misguided men as we do in condemning them?

And as to the appeal for funds instead of a homily ~ our Pastor, who is one of the pre-eminent Pastors in our diocese ~ gives a talk at least once per year about the Diocesan Appeal for funds used for special projects. During 1st Communion Season (currently) the Priests tend to focus on those who are receiving 1st Communion. There are various times, but not many, during the liturgical year, where the “homily” does not involve preaching the Gospel and, given the attention span of the congregation and the time constraints of 5 masses on Sunday (at least in our parish) I think the Priests can be forgiven for a Sunday or two where the time for the homily is used for some special purpose. PLUS, at least in my parish, there is a short homily at daily Mass too. Those who are interested in greater pastoral exposition on the Gospel can, happily, attend Mass every day if they wish. I see no valid reason for attacking Priests on the subject of the homily.

 

[eucharisteo]

Go **here **for the split topic brought up by MelanieAnne. You really tried to derail this topic by assuming so much. It all pertains to this. The priest scandals are simply part of the bigger picture representing motivators as to why Catholics end up leaving the Catholic Church. It is related, yet slightly too focused on that one topic.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Go **here **for the split topic brought up by MelanieAnne. You really tried to derail this topic by assuming so much. It all pertains to this. The priest scandals are simply part of the bigger picture representing motivators as to why Catholics end up leaving the Catholic Church. It is related, yet slightly too focused on that one topic.

I did not try to derail this topic. That is a very ugly thing to say. You don’t know me, you know nothing about me, and yet you have the temerity to ascribe an intention to me? How very arrogant and presumptuous of you.

What I did do is attempt to both address the opening post and the way it has been derailed. I submit you should both thoroughly read and thoughtfully consider a post before you issue a response.

I will no longer read your posts. I will immediately put you on my ignore list, as I do all those who I have appear to engage in a similar sort of uncharitable/unhelpful/ad hominem posting. I do not have time for this sort of nonsense which I will refrain, as you have not, from describing further.

 

[eucharisteo]

Back to topic. I have a sister in law that told us when we converted to Catholicism “words can not describe the concern I have for you and your children”, posted on the public area of Facebook. We began our conversion late in October 2006 and made the final step during the Easter Vigil April 7, 2007. I sponsored my wife but sat through RCIA to learn what I never learned and continue to this day to study everything I get my hands on. The SIL only learned of our conversion mid March 2009, Just months prior MIL said “I know you’re not going to the Lord’s church but at least it isn’t some Pagan religion like Muslims or Catholics”. This is the reason I brought this topic up in part. They truly believe we’re bound by chains to hell now. The one’s claiming to be ecumenical and non-judgement told me in response to something I sent them that “maybe it’s a wake up call”.

 

[FrJohnB]

No, I rather my church be lively and people linger around after mass and having fellowship. However it is not always like that and people today seems to be busier than perhaps two generations ago. As a little kid, I got time to play a bit as my grandpa having his chat with his friends after the mass.

I am pretty sure one of the posters here in CAF left the Church because she found the friendliness was missing. And she liked what she found in a Protestant church. This subject is covered widely in the other thread. The gist of the discussion is that Catholic parish can improve to be more warm. The other point is about the mass being the centre of worship and so there are other activities outside the mass that facilitated other needs.

We keep it in mind too that Protestants tend to ‘sell’ their church while Catholics do not have the need to do so since Catholics come to worship in fulfilling their obligation.

Frankly, it does not matter for me whether people are warm or not because when I go to a mass my purpose is to fulfill my obligation and worship. I would drop in for mass in different countries if I am travelling and it does not bother me if people do not greet me because my purpose is to go for the mass. But then that’s just me. Some people are extrovert, they like socializing before or after the mass. It shouldn’t be a reason to leave the Church. But yes, we can always improve and I think that’s done in my sub-parish, the church being smaller. They identify new-comers before the mass start and give them souvenirs. Yes, something can be done to improve to make the church more warm.

May I remind you that part of your OBLIGATION is to be your brother’s keeper, not just to show up to mass as an obligation. If your faith is only obligation to mass it is a hollow faith.
I rather resent that comment of Protestants “sell” their church. Let me tell you that if you look at as “selling” then where is your REAL obligation to spread the Gospel yourself. Are you living it in your life? Do others see your light shining as Jesus commands? Or do you show up to church as a “holy obligation.” You should be sharing the faith or as you say, selling it as that is what Jesus told all of his disciples to do.

 

[eucharisteo]

May I remind you that part of your OBLIGATION is to be your brother’s keeper, not just to show up to mass as an obligation. If your faith is only obligation to mass it is a hollow faith.
I rather resent that comment of Protestants “sell” their church. Let me tell you that if you look at as “selling” then where is your REAL obligation to spread the Gospel yourself. Are you living it in your life? Do others see your light shining as Jesus commands? Or do you show up to church as a “holy obligation.” You should be sharing the faith or as you say, selling it as that is what Jesus told all of his disciples to do.

“going to church” should not be fullfilling and obligation. One of the main, and most humiliating things I learned coming home to the Catholic Church was the fact that we are a community of believers, intricately connected to each other. One does not worship God alone. When ever 2 or 3 are gather in my name… You get the point. We should be checking with our brothers and sisters every chance we get. Fortunately for us we have "donuts and coffee after masses and get a chance to share the various ministries as well as chat with folks. We also have CCD taking place in the morning for all ages up to the teens. The classrooms are packed full. We are very lucky. We also have a nursery for young children 4 and under as well as a cry room, though too small. But these things were retrofitted in a church building and school that is under built for the level of use on it. Our pastor is responsible for increasing the numbers, but mostly the level and number of faithful laity. We also have our own Knights of Columbus chapter now. I’d like to add that the wealthier parishes around us are not nearly as wonderful as ours evident by the lack of following the rubric of the mass and the lack of perpetual adoration that we have. We’re very fortunate to have 2 priests as well. We love our pastor very much and this man has shown my wife that she can be whatever she wants and his direct and indirect influence on her new found vocation teaching the poorest of the poor has even inspire him. He used to be an English teacher as well in his youth. This is the man that helped lead me back to the Catholic with a better understanding of what I had missed my entire life. He was brutally and gently honest about everything. Apparently he realizes that people are drawn by orthodoxy and it works.

 

[Padrej]

Back to topic. I have a sister in law that told us when we converted to Catholicism “words can not describe the concern I have for you and your children”, posted on the public area of Facebook. We began our conversion late in October 2006 and made the final step during the Easter Vigil April 7, 2007. I sponsored my wife but sat through RCIA to learn what I never learned and continue to this day to study everything I get my hands on. The SIL only learned of our conversion mid March 2009, Just months prior MIL said “I know you’re not going to the Lord’s church but at least it isn’t some Pagan religion like Muslims or Catholics”. This is the reason I brought this topic up in part. They truly believe we’re bound by chains to hell now. The one’s claiming to be ecumenical and non-judgement told me in response to something I sent them that “maybe it’s a wake up call”.

I think you hit one of the nails on the head again when it comes to some Protestants who view Catholicism as a pagan religion or a cult so they therefore need to be evangelized to.

This post reminds me that the fastest growing Non-catholic church in Mexico is the Jehovah’s Witness movement. They prey on the fact that many do not know their faith well enough and quickly gain converts as many do not have adequate Biblical knowledge to “battle them.”

I will never forget one time a Jehovah’s Witness came to my door and when I told them of being a priest they immediately assumed Catholic and pulled a Douay. I told them I did not say I was a Catholic priest and quickly found that it was not in their training to deal with an Anglican. When asked what Bible I read I told them the Greek, so they proceeded to brag how they could interpret the scriptures so I handed them the Greek NT and asked them to interpret. They then said that only their elders could do such for them, SO, I invited them to bring an elder of their church over. The next week they showed up with an elder who also could not read the Greek NT. The sad thing was I handed him an interlinear so he could have faked it. I said all that to say this: the Bible tells us to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves, so it would make sense if more were educated to defend their faith so that when a counterfeit shows up or someone misquotes a passage it sticks out like a sore thumb. Do so and you will not the the easy target for conversion.

 

[Padrej]

“going to church” should not be fullfilling and obligation. One of the main, and most humiliating things I learned coming home to the Catholic Church was the fact that we are a community of believers, intricately connected to each other. One does not worship God alone. When ever 2 or 3 are gather in my name… You get the point. We should be checking with our brothers and sisters every chance we get. Fortunately for us we have "donuts and coffee after masses and get a chance to share the various ministries as well as chat with folks. We also have CCD taking place in the morning for all ages up to the teens. The classrooms are packed full. We are very lucky. We also have a nursery for young children 4 and under as well as a cry room, though too small. But these things were retrofitted in a church building and school that is under built for the level of use on it. Our pastor is responsible for increasing the numbers, but mostly the level and number of faithful laity. We also have our own Knights of Columbus chapter now. I’d like to add that the wealthier parishes around us are not nearly as wonderful as ours evident by the lack of following the rubric of the mass and the lack of perpetual adoration that we have. We’re very fortunate to have 2 priests as well. We love our pastor very much and this man has shown my wife that she can be whatever she wants and his direct and indirect influence on her new found vocation teaching the poorest of the poor has even inspire him. He used to be an English teacher as well in his youth. This is the man that helped lead me back to the Catholic with a better understanding of what I had missed my entire life. He was brutally and gently honest about everything. Apparently he realizes that people are drawn by orthodoxy and it works.

On the highlighted part I want to respond. Sheep breed sheep, the shepherd (the pastor/priest) is there to guide. Statistics show that 85% of persons are members of a church because of the invitation of another member. It is only about 5% are there because of a pastor/priest as it is felt it was their “obligation” to invite them in the first place. The other 10% are there because of family or denominational loyalty. With these stats in mind is it any wonder people are converted?