Are couples so selfish these days that they won't have kids

[notsmart]

Did you mean catholic and are married/contemplating marriage you must be open to having children?

If not, then a cathlic who has decided not to marry and have children would cease to be catholic at the moment they decided not to marry or have children. Unless, I suppose, they are either planning to become a priest, religious or consecrated virgin.

I mean, that if you are a married catholic you must be open to having children.
I am talking about those who have chosen marriage as their vocation.

 

[sanctamaria17]

Wow, a Catholic who happened to like animals. That’s nice but tell me, where in the Bible or in any later official teachings does it positively FORBID the mistreatment of animals and declare it to be a sin? Where do they acknowledge anywhere that we are in any way evolved from or fundamentally related to other animals? Nowhere.
Gawd just came down from the sky and poofed it all into existence, and made us masters over them and allows us to use/abuse them any way we want. I still can’t fathom how I once believed in all that junk.

Well, the Bible was to be about how humans should live together and was never meant to be a scientific text. Trust me, I do accept evolution but I don’t believe it is incompatible with biblical teachings.

Maybe the Bible isn’t explicit but if you study how the Jews were commanded to slaughter their animals, the way it is done is in a way that is humane and respects the animal, even as we eat of it. But in that time period, people weren’t going to mercilessly beat their animals, considering that if they abused their animals, they wouldn’t be able to eat or sell them or travel with them (and in Biblical times, they were nomads for quite some time) and thus their livelihoods would be destroyed. They didn’t have factory farms back then.

OK, if you want to debate animals, start another thread. This was about couples having or not having children. And again, if you want to debate, debate. But be respectful that while you may not believe anymore, there are those of us who do and respect our right to believe as you would an animal’s right to live.

 

[Salonika]

sanctamaria:

I beg to differ that Catholicism has no regard for animals. As stewards of this earth, we are required to be humane towards animals and take care of the environment. Even the Pope has said that.

Like your use of stewards rather than the often used that humans “have dominion over” the world and its inhabitants. Stewardship is a very different concept where all species and inhabitants have their place and are to be respected.

If you don’t want to have kids, then don’t. But don’t expect many Catholics, or many people in general, to agree with you.

I don’t want people to agree with my decision not to marry and have kids.

What I want is for people not to assume my reasons for these decisions (selfishness, inability to share are the usual ones they suggest even on first meeting). I don’t ask people about their marital status and whether they have children and howmany on meeting and speculate on the reasons for their situation. I just expect the same treatment from others not special treatment.

Think some people almost consider the unmarried/married without children as not quite grown up and talk to them as if they are children nor adults.

 

[Logic316]

If we are Catholic, then our happiness comes from God, not from the Pope or from the earth. Our freedom also comes from God, not this world.

A god for which there is not now, nor has there EVER been any verifiable evidence for. Do you know what “verifiable evidence” means?

But there is a price and it means learning to give of yourself to others.

I already pointed out abundantly that one does not need to squirt out children in order to give of oneself to others. I find this comment downright condescending.

Marriage is supposed to be procreative because it reflects the oneness of God, which is always creating. Sex, biologically, is for BOTH the procreation and union of mankind. That’s why it belongs in marriage.

One can be creative without involving one’s genitals. Ever heard of art, music, technological inventions, and literature? Hey, George Washington is the father of our county and he was childless, would you say that he was cursed or that he created nothing? I think it’s terrible that your religion pushes people into having kids and belittles them for not doing so

Seriously, no one is pointing a gun to your head and forcing you to procreate. But if you want to be a good Catholic and you feel your vocation is marriage, you have to at least be open.

And if somebody doesn’t want to be a good Catholic, then what? He goes to hell, right?

And if you want to debate Catholicism, that’s fine. We don’t mind disagreement. But don’t insult us or our religion just because it isn’t convenient for your chosen lifestyle.

Please don’t start playing the martyr with me. Nobody has to respect ideas that they don’t agree with, unless you are in accord with the governments of countries like Turkey or Egypt where “offending religion” is actually a crime.

 

[notsmart]

No one is forcing anyone to marry here! If you are a catholic, and have chosen marriage as your vocation you must be open to children. You don’t have to marry.
Another poster was talking about if the couple has means to have children, yet chose not to. My concern here, is they are not being open to having children.
Having pets, is not an approved substitue for the marital union.

 

[sanctamaria17]

Like your use of stewards rather than the often used that humans “have dominion over” the world and its inhabitants. Stewardship is a very different concept where all species and inhabitants have their place and are to be respected.

I don’t want people to agree with my decision not to marry and have kids.

What I want is for people not to assume my reasons for these decisions (selfishness, inability to share are the usual ones they suggest even on first meeting). I don’t ask people about their marital status and whether they have children and howmany on meeting and speculate on the reasons for their situation. I just expect the same treatment from others not special treatment.

Think some people almost consider the unmarried/married without children as not quite grown up and talk to them as if they are children nor adults.

I wasn’t responding to your reasons and I myself will probably not marry either. I was just saying, if you are married and Catholic, this is what the Church teaches and I was responding to Logic’s post.

And Logic, don’t condescend to me, you who’ve accused me of condescending. I know what evidence is, I know what verifiable evidence is, I just think verifiable evidence can’t be used with God and I don’t need verifiable evidence with God.

Never did I say one needed to have kids, just that if you are married and Catholic, you have to be open to the possibility, not that you have to actively seek it. Never did I say you have to be creative by having children, I’m a poet and musician myself. Just that as a Catholic, you should be open to that.

And never was I playing the martyr. You don’t have to understand or respect ideas, but remember that you’re on a Catholic forum and when you insult our faith, you’re insulting a part of us that many of us had to fight for. You can criticize things and say you don’t understand, but stop making us out to be idiots.

As to whether people go to Hell, that’s between them and God and I can’t judge that.

And this is from a woman who may not marry and have children but will most likely be single and celibate. I know very well that you don’t have to have kids to be happy or unselfish, just that if you’re married and Catholic, you should be open (and what happens if the contraceptive/sterilization fails, because both have been known to!). Open does not mean actively seeking, it means accepting.

 

[Logic316]

I don’t know if you are angry, but I will answer this post as soon as you note my kind reply to your abrasive post above.
I will repeat, do you know about St. Francis of Assisi?

St. Nicholas was known for being a brawler, so don’t whine about me being “abrasive”. Yeah, I know of St. Francis. My first name in Hungarian means Francis and I was specifically named after that saint. Nice guy, and he was good with animals. Who gives a ****, it has nothing whatsoever to do with my argument that the Church has little regard for the kinship between humans and other animals.

By the way, are you a christian?
Do you consider catholics christian?

Catholics are Christian.
I am now an atheist, through and through.
But if it makes any difference to you, I was baptized and confirmed a Roman Catholic, my entire family is Catholic, as a baby I was blessed by cardinal Mindszenty of Hungary himself, I haven’t been excommunicated (yet), so don’t even think of telling me to get lost.

 

[notsmart]

There are vocations that are not just being a priest or nun or deacon or monastic. One could be a numerary in Opus Dei for instance.
There are all sorts of options for catholics. More than I know of.

Marriage is simply the most common of them.

 

[notsmart]

St. Nicholas was known for being a brawler, so don’t whine about me being “abrasive”.

 

[Logic316]

I don’t want people to agree with my decision not to marry and have kids.

What I want is for people not to assume my reasons for these decisions (selfishness, inability to share are the usual ones they suggest even on first meeting). I don’t ask people about their marital status and whether they have children and howmany on meeting and speculate on the reasons for their situation. I just expect the same treatment from others not special treatment.

Think some people almost consider the unmarried/married without children as not quite grown up and talk to them as if they are children nor adults.

As long as you remain a Christian, you’ll be fighting an uphill battle to get respect for your lifestyle. It’s almost more respectable among some Christians to be gay, than to not want kids. Most denominations look upon childless couples as being cursed, and consider you to be in rebellion against God if you actually choose to live that way. Bah.

 

[notsmart]

As long as you remain a Christian, you’ll be fighting an uphill battle to get respect for your lifestyle. It’s almost more respectable among some Christians to be gay, than to not want kids. Most denominations look upon childless couples as being cursed, and consider you to be in rebellion against God if you actually choose to live that way. Bah.

There is no battle to be fought. One is either in a battle with church teachings and willfully ignores them, or they follow them.
There is no battle for the person who has a fully formed conscience on the matter in accord with the church.

 

[Logic316]

There is no battle to be fought. One is either in a battle with church teachings and willfully ignores them, or they follow them.
There is no battle for the person who has a fully formed conscience on the matter in accord with the church.

And as long as one believes in the church and it’s clergy, there is never any shortage of sins to worry about. Without the concept of sin and the threats of punishment that they come with, those people might actually have to go out and find jobs.

 

[notsmart]

And as long as one believes in the church and it’s clergy, there is never any shortage of sins to worry about. Without the concept of sin and the threats of punishment that they come with, those people might actually have to go out and find jobs.

Okay, way off topic on your reply but let me just tell you this.
Catholics do not believe in the clergy if you mean believe in them as God.
There are a multitude of sins. You know this, don’t act as if you don’t.
If you think clergy don’t have “jobs” then you don’t know too many priests.

 

[Logic316]

I don’t know if you missed my post earlier, but I am not a catholic, and not baptised yet. I am not sure why you would think I would tell you to get lost, or be impressed by who baptised /blessed you.

I wasn’t just posting to you, but to anybody who claims I have no business criticizing Catholic/Christian ideas around here. I have a Catholic background, and like I pointed out before, there is nothing uncivil about refusing to respect any particular beliefs that one does not agree with. So what exactly is your problem?

 

[Salonika]

Logic316:

“Be fruitful and multiply” is just a blessing, not a commandment.

Well put Logic316

 

[notsmart]

I wasn’t just posting to you, but to anybody who claims I have no business criticizing Catholic/Christian ideas around here. I have a Catholic background, and like I pointed out before, there is nothing uncivil about refusing to respect any particular beliefs that one does not agree with. So what exactly is your problem?

I am not sure what problem you think I have?
I said that the forum is meant for civil discussions. And, I respect everyone’s beliefs even if I don’t agree with them. I am having a very civil discussion with a Satanist now.
Are you saying you have demonstrated a respect for catholic beliefs here in your posts?
If you think it is okay to disrespect catholic beliefs in this forum, I would politely suggest you read the forum rules for clarity.

 

[Logic316]

Okay, way off topic on your reply but let me just tell you this.
Catholics do not believe in the clergy if you mean believe in them as God.
There are a multitude of sins. You know this, don’t act as if you don’t.
If you think clergy don’t have “jobs” then you don’t know too many priests.

Not off-topic at all. As long as the clergy depend on money from a fearful and gullible congregation, you can bet there will always be a multitude of sins. There is no sin if there is no God. But you’re right, the clergy do have plenty of jobs, if you count all the blowjobs they get from the altar boys.

 

[Pro-Life_Teen]

Not off-topic at all. As long as the clergy depend on money from a fearful and gullible congregation, you can bet there will always be a multitude of sins. There is no sin if there is no God. But you’re right, the clergy do have plenty of jobs, if you count all the blowjobs they get from the altar boys.

That’s not right. We all sin, priests included. We all mortally sin, priests included. What happened with those scandals is horrible, but to assume being a priest makes you pedophile is absurd. Stats alone show that, going with jobs, teachers are more likely to abuse children, but no one fears going to school.

As for fearful and gullible- I fear nothing, I am with the Lord. I am not unintelligent, I have His Knowledge and His Wisdom. Who better to agree with, than the Creator? He should know His inventions and His children, should He not?

 

[Logic316]

I am not sure what problem you think I have?
I said that the forum is meant for civil discussions. And, I respect everyone’s beliefs even if I don’t agree with them. I am having a very civil discussion with a Satanist now.

If I were to claim that I believe in an invisible pink unicorn that lives on the far side of Mars and answers all my prayers, would I have any right to think it uncivil of you to question it?

Are you saying you have demonstrated a respect for catholic beliefs here in your posts?

I have a respect for the fact that sometimes they can beneficial, sometimes innocuous, and sometimes downright dangerous.

If you think it is okay to disrespect catholic beliefs in this forum, I would politely suggest you read the forum rules for clarity.

Is this a forum for discussing Catholicism, or is it only a forum for Catholics? I always thought a discussion group should be a place where people can handle tough questions without getting their panties in a bunch, and not just someplace where people who conform to each others’ views can pull each others’ peckers all day.

 

[katillac1]

As a 23 year old female Catholic, I still can’t grasp why not wanting kids is labled as selfish. I’m not married, but have a serious boyfriend and this issue has been brought up a number of times. He wants kids eventually and I don’t. He has never even been around babies, he just thinks it’s something he’s supposed to do, but I on the other hand, have never had a good experience with a baby or small child. Ever. I won’t use the word hate but if there’s a feeling right below that, it is an accurate description of my feelings about babies. Have you ever had that deep horrible angry feeling inside of you that some things cause? You don’t want to feel that way but you do. If so, that’s what happens to me if I’m ever around a baby. It is just the way I am. Maybe I’ll grow out of it, but I’ve threatened to rip out my uterus several times already. (sort of kidding)
My point is that some people just cannot fathom one happy thought about being thrown into motherhood. I know that’s probably impossible for happy parents to imagine, but it’s true. Am I selfish for just being that way? It’s like a young child, who everytime they saw a dog, got bitten or scared by it. Then he grows up and is told that just because there are dogs out there that need homes, you should adopt as many as possible without you and them going hungry. Forget your life as you know it. It’s ok God will provide.Think of how that now adult would react to that. Now substitute babies for dogs and me as that child. Maybe now you can understand. Does that make me selfish and evil for feeling that way? What’s wrong with putting it off so that if I ever do have a kid, I’m happy about it?
Everyone has their own situation so don’t label someone that doesn’t want kids as selfish. People think women need to reproduce as much as possible just because they have a uterus. That makes as much sense as purposely becoming obese because you have a stomach.

Sorry that turned into a rant, but when your own mother even calls you seflish for not wanting kids in the future, it makes you angry.