Are formfitting shirts appropriate?

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Here in Florida during the winter it is generally still too hot for a jacket for be, so I wear an under armor long sleeve shirt that is firm fitting under my work shirt. It’s light enough that I can wear up to about 60ish degrees.

When I get back to base, off goes my work shirt and I I just wear the under armor shirt.
 
alphonsus1 said:
My argument has nothing to do whatsoever with what you are taught (but yes, we need to teach guys differently).

It has to do with evolution hardwiring the great majority of guys in a certain way for the perpetuation of the species.

It’s as simple as that!
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And civilization is about overcoming our hardwiring. We’re also hardwired to bonk people over the head with a big stick if they have something that we want. We don’t demand universal poverty so that nobody makes someone else jealous.
 
Please everyone do not weigh online opinions over the the Saints and Doctors of the Church. Here is Saint Alphonsus.

St. Alphonsus:
“Moreover, sins of impurity, on account of their great number, are an immense evil. A blasphemer does not always blaspheme, but only when he is drunk or provoked to anger. The assassin, whose trade is to murder others, does not, at the most, commit more than eight or ten homicides. But the unchaste are guilty of an unceasing torrent of sins, by thoughts, by words, by looks, by complacencies, and by touches; so that, when they go to confession they find it impossible to tell the number of the sins they have committed against purity. Even in their sleep the devil represents to them obscene objects, that, on awakening, they may take delight in them; and because they are made the slaves of the enemy, they obey and consent to his suggestions; for it is easy to contract a habit of this sin. To other sins, such as blasphemy, detraction, and murder, men are not prone; but to this vice nature inclines them…”

Please go to the Patron Saint of Theologians and Confessors. If anyone would be an expert in confession, it would be him!

St. Alphonsus:
“Behold the end of habitual sinners! Brethren, if you have the misfortune of having contracted a habit of sin, make, as soon as possible, a general confession; for your past confessions can scarcely have been valid. Go forth instantly from the slavery of the devil. Attend to the advice of the Holy Ghost. “Give not thy ears to the cruel.” (Prov. v. 9.) Why will you serve the devil, your enemy, who is so cruel a master who makes you lead a life of misery here, to bring you to a life of still greater misery in hell for all eternity? “Lazarus, come forth. ”Go out of the pit of sin; give yourself immediately to God, who calls you, and is ready to receive you if you turn to him. Tremble! this may be for you the last call, to which if you do not correspond, you shall be lost.”
 
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This is gravely erroneous. We cannot overcome temptations, otherwise you would be able to make a gay person straight. Temptations themselves are caused by factors outside of our control, testosterone, etc, which only declines with aging. We can only control how we respond to temptations. Not the temptations/ nature itself
 
Saints are NOT infallible and are NOT meant as a Replacement for the Individualized Spiritual Direction of a Priest.
 
Men are not prone to murder in the same way that nature inclines them to lust. False comparison! Most men are not psychopaths with thoughts of murder all the time. Men do not get hundreds of thoughts of murder that pop into their brain from one confession to the next. This is why fleeing from the occasions of sin is necessary in regards to lust! While watching a rated R movie with murder in it will not tempt you to murder, watching a rated R movie with lust in it does tempt you to lust. This is why we must be vigilant at all times and flee from the near occasions of sin. Never stop fleeing from sin, It is a means necessary for salvation according to St. Alphonsus.

St. Alphonsus explicitly says that we should flee from sins against chastity, turn our minds to a neutral object, and not confront them head on, because they are so much more likely to be consented to!
 
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Salibi said:
Do you live in a jungle, mayhaps, where men follow their passions like uncouth apes? So if you see a naked woman that’s an automatic trigger for you to start catcalling her? LOL.
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It’s nature’s way. 😉
 
alphonsus1 said:
Men are not prone to murder in the same way that nature inclines them to lust. False comparison! Most men are not psychopaths with thoughts of murder all the time. Men do not get hundreds of thoughts of murder that pop into their brain from one confession to the next. This is why fleeing from the occasions of sin is necessary in regards to lust! While watching a rated R movie with murder in it will not tempt you to murder, watching a rated R movie with lust in it does tempt you to lust. This is why we must be vigilant at all times and flee from the near occasions of sin. Never stop fleeing from sin, It is a means necessary for salvation.

St. Alphonsus explicitly says that we should flee from sins against chastity, turn our minds to a neutral object, and not confront them head on, because they are so much more likely to be consented to!
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I wasn’t talking about murder; I was talking about armed robbery.

Of course we should try to avoid temptation. That doesn’t make me any less responsible for my own actions. If I see a beautiful woman on the sidewalk and give in to lustful thoughts, that’s on me, not her top.

Should I always dress like a slob to be absolutely sure that women don’t lust after me (in this dream scenario in which I look good enough for that to be a problem)?
 
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I disagree with just brushing off St. Alphonsus’s advice.

(1) He has gotten more Magisterial affirmation than any other Saint. Denzinger 2725, by the Holy See, even said that his opinions could be quietly accepted just by virtue of him having held them. Wow, just wow.

(2) St. Alphonsus backs up every one of his opinions with a plethora of other Doctors of the Church who taught the same thing.

(3) St. Alphonsus backs his arguments up with the Magisterium and with scripture. He is not just making things up, his logic is impeccable! He was a prodigy who got his Ph.D. at age 16.

(4) He is the Patron Saint of Confessors! If anyone would know something about confession, it would be him.

If we go to experts to get to the answer regarding questions like climate change (because we ourselves are not experts in climatology), then how mistaken is it to not also go to the Doctors (advertised to be “safe”), the experts in moral theology, to get to the Truth?
 
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Okay, I think this is not going anywhere. Where did I say we are not responsible for our actions? I said the opposite: we are responsible for throwing off each of the hundreds of thoughts that go through our brain thoughout the day instantly. Not three seconds later. Instantly.

Also, where are you getting “dressing like slobs” from? I just said to not wear yoga pants/ cleavage. Also we must avoid rated R movies, nudity, practice custody of our eyes, etc, with our utmost endeavors. That is my position!
 
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alphonsus1 said:
Therefore, since vigilance, fleeing from sin, and custody of the eyes (where am I looking at) is expected of men at all times, is it too much to ask to expect modesty of women? I am not intending to answer the question of what level of modesty is necessary today, because circumstances have changed, but no, it is not too much to dress modestly (no cleavage and no yoga pants would solve 90 percent of lustful “suggestions,” and we can debate from there).

In conclusion: modesty is of utmost importance!
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While I do sympathize with the young men out there, especially those who are still learning to control their actions and responses to women, I do wonder where we draw the line with this attitude of holding women responsible for men’s reactions. How short is too short in dresses? To the knees or covering the knees? How about long skirts with slits? How long do sleeves need to be? Are the knees a problem? Shoulders? Spaghetti straps vs. regular tank tops? Cap sleeves? Short sleeves? Covering the elbow or down to the wrists? Is showing the collarbone okay? The neck? The hair? Every man is going to have a different response to various visual stimuli and this is going to be based on his individual makeup, his culture, his experience, his age, and so much more. If we draw this line of thinking to its extreme, the result is a burqa. Or worse, since the sight of a woman in a burqa might have an unwanted effect on a man, the total removal of women from public life might be necessary. Since there are certainly men who, unused to seeing a woman, might be driven to lust even with her fully covered.

A man’s physiological response to the sight of a woman is not a sin and men and boys can and must learn self-control. The world is full of temptations and cannot remove this particular temptation from men without removing women. We will spend a lifetime fighting against those that are our particular thorns. The key is the struggle and the repentance when we fail in the struggle.

Having said that, I do think that modesty is important and as a woman and the mother of teenage girls and boys, I try to teach the importance of dressing with the dignity befitting a child of God and how to respond when someone’s manner of dress presents a particular struggle.
 
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In general, I would say no. Our society today seems to be dressing down more and more. Comfort is nice and all, but there is a time and a place for most everything.
 
There are a lot of questions there. I never intended to answer where the lines were. But here are my thoughts.

(1) No yoga pants or similar (showing that region of the body)
(2) No cleavage
(3) Other

I intended to say that (1) and (2) show regions of the body that universally put lustful suggestions into the majority of young guys brains regardless of culture.

As far as (3). This might apply to ultra short shorts or ultra tight clothing, but I agree, this is a prudential decision. I was just trying to say that (1) and (2) are exponentially more likely to put lust into a man’s brain than anything else.

If women could just not show those areas of the body that should not be shown, that’s all I’m asking, then guys lives would be so much easier!
 
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alphonsus1 said:
There are a lot of questions there. I never intended to answer where the lines were. But here are my thoughts.

(1) No yoga pants or similar (showing that region of the body)
(2) No cleavage
(3) Other

I intended to say that (1) and (2) show regions of the body that universally put lustful suggestions into the majority of young guys brains regardless of culture.

As far as (3). This might apply to ultra short shorts or ultra tight clothing, but I agree, this is a prudential decision. I was just trying to say that (1) and (2) are exponentially more likely to put lust into a man’s brain than anything else.

If women could just not show those areas of the body that should not be shown, that’s all I’m asking, then guys lives would be so much easier!
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Well, tube tops don’t usually show cleavage. I don’t really consider them appropriate for public wear, but I’m glad to know they pass muster for you.
 
alphonsus1 said:
If women could just not show those areas of the body that shouldn’t be shown, that’s all I’m asking, then guys lives would be so much easier!
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Please, stop putting your problem onto women. They do not need “The list of disapproved apparel according to alphonsus1.” You sound like you believe men are weak victims, incapable of controlling themselves. The visuals may trigger you, but it is your responsibility to turn away, change the channel, move elsewhere if in view of someone or something bothering you.
 
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