Are guitars, rock bands, lifeteen, dancing, etc. all allowed?

[Shin]

No. But they didn’t have to completely annihilate, rape, and enslave them. These things are what the Church call sins.

From what I understand smallpox wiped out most of them.

Though, it’s rather obvious the conquistadors were largely in it for conquest and not for much else. That being said, things were not fluffy and gentle back then, and any civilization which boasted about its cannibalism and living human sacrifices (84,000 people to dedicate a pyramid?) was obviously dedicated enough to the devil to deserve some retribution.

You don’t commit living sacrifices of that many people to demon gods without building up some weighty spiritual heft against you in the heavens.

And generally disease is often seen as divine retribution. People nowadays don’t like to hear it, but scripture is full of it, and apparently even the Aztecs viewed it as such.

Well, off topic isn’t this anyway? Does go to show though. . not all cultural traditions are good or of equal value.

 

[elts1956]

How do either of those scriptures prevent communicants from expressing exuberance in their
love and devotion to Jesus?

… and why not just do as I suggest above. If the expression is not your cup of tea… simply dont drink it.

“Raised Catholic”,

 

[elts1956]

How do either of those scriptures prevent communicants from expressing exuberance in their
love and devotion to Jesus?

… and why not just do as I suggest above. If the expression is not your cup of tea… simply dont drink it.

From what I understand smallpox wiped out most of them.

Though, it’s rather obvious the conquistadors were largely in it for conquest and not for much else. That being said, things were not fluffy and gentle back then, and any civilization which boasted about its cannibalism and living human sacrifices (84,000 people to dedicate a pyramid?) was obviously dedicated enough to the devil to deserve some retribution.

You don’t commit living sacrifices of that many people to demon gods without building up some weighty spiritual heft against you in the heavens.

And generally disease is often seen as divine retribution. People nowadays don’t like to hear it, but scripture is full of it, and apparently even the Aztecs viewed it as such.

Well, off topic isn’t this anyway? Does go to show though. . not all cultural traditions are good or of equal value.

The sad thing is by destroying manuscripts “pagan images” (probably gold) and just about all information of the Aztecs, Mayas, Incas etc., we know almost nothing about their civilizations other than the impressions given us by the Spanish soldiers. Much of what was saved and descriptions given of the lives of these indiginous people came by way of the Monks who accompanied the Conquistadors and who tried to temper the treatment given them by the soldiers.

In spite of their horrendous methods of appeasing their gods, these people were highly organized and civilized for their world. At least they took baths more than once a year.

And speaking of divine retribution, much punishment is given by humans to humans. In other words retribution is usually man made by not following natural law and Divine Law. For instance the Jewish people had many laws of cleanliness etc. that earlier Europeans could have followed, but ignored, because the Hebrews denied Jesus. So who was punished when plagues were prevalent in Europe? A little cleanliness might have averted many of them. But As my daughter has said, “What goes around comes around”.

The Spanish and many other peoples got “theirs” through the Muslims/Moors. But without the incursion of Islam into Spain and Europe, I wonder where we in the West would be in the knowledge of such topics as astronomy, medicine, mathematics?

 

[elts1956]

They converted them. Should the Spanish have tolerated human sacrifices of the Aztecs?

They didn’t “convert” many. Most were killed because, as was said, the Spanish soldiers of the day were brutal men. Not to support the human sacrifices, but the Aztecs etc. did THINK they had a bit higher motives for those sacrifices than the Spanish lust for gold and conquest. I can’t believe many Spaniards of that day had the higher motives of conversion.

 

[Shin]

They didn’t “convert” many. Most were killed because, as was said, the Spanish soldiers of the day were brutal men. Not to support the human sacrifices, but the Aztecs etc. did THINK they had a bit higher motives for those sacrifices than the Spanish lust for gold and conquest. I can’t believe many Spaniards of that day had the higher motives of conversion.

Our Lady of Guadalupe converted the Aztecs. Wholesale. Nine million people. And they converted through Spanish priests.

 

[elts1956]

They converted them. Should the Spanish have tolerated human sacrifices of the Aztecs?

This is the classic example of us trying to conform God to our wills…instead of us conforming to His. It is not fun to go to Church and be told that we are sinning…to be told that we are dressing inappropriately…that women shouldn’t use birth control…or co-habitation is wrong…that we shouldn’t do this or that…that is exactly what used to happen at a Catholic Church and school. It was strict, because they understood human nature and the need to speak out against sin…and tried to instill a moral compass and a love for The Sacraments within us. That is really not the case anymore. Not the Church…but the detractors of the Church who is trying to change it, reminds me of Colin Powell and this idea of the “big tent” Republican party…saying in order for the Republican Party to survive, it must be inclusive of all types of people and be a lot larger than what it is…that is a bunch of non sense…The Republican Party, and The Catholic Church will grow and thrive BY CLEARLY outlining their beliefs…not pandering to those who really don’t belong…and by making a clear divide and noticeable differences which sets us apart from Protestants or democrats in the case of the Republicans. The Church is truth…it is Holy and has not erred…it is the individuals within it trying to lead us down the wrong path…the same people screaming for women’s ordination…or the same ones pushing to have girls on the Altars…or EMHC’s when there is no need for them…people who hide the Tabernacle…those who have lost belief in the Real Presence, etc…Now a days…if what we are being told is not expedient…or we don’t agree…we complain and try to make that priest and the church conform to how we think it should be…but that is wrong. We either accept The Church and all of its teachings…or we are living a lie by saying we are CAtholic…we must bend and conform to The Church. With that said…with these practices that haven’t been explicitly abolished and are somewhat and encouraged to take place during Mass, such as the lay people adopting the Orans Position…just because people are afraid to speak out against it and it is allowed to happen, don’t assume it is adopted and accepted by the Church…because it isn’t. Heck…travel to Cardinal Mahony’s Arch-Diocese, and you will see a litany of abuses that he allows to happen…a Prince of The Church…and he allows so many abuses to take place. Sorry if this is kind of confusing of there is misspelled words…I am in a huge hurry on my way to work. God Bless

For 99% of your post, but please don’t include the Republican Party OR the Dem. party in an otherwise well thought out statement about proper liturgy. We already have enough trouble trying to distinguish Pro Life from Pro Republican.

Because I am a “result” of the early Latin Mass before Vat. II and the NO of the Post Vat. II days, I would like to ask you not to throw all the attendees of the NO Mass out into the dark to weep and wail and gnash our teeth.

Yes, there have been too many abuses of liturgy, Tradition, mis statements and misunderstanding of the Absolutes taught by the Church, but there is still good in the people of Post Vatican II and the NO Mass. Mahoney is an example of a priest of God gone wild, but not all are of his ilk and neither are the Catholics who have known only the NO and are not aware of the weakness of the liturgy. Just pray for us.

I think changes will come, hopefully through folks such as you who refuse to bend to modern demands, but they will come slowly. Can you imagine the NO
folks walking into a Church on a Sunday morning and being greeted by a missal having Latin on one side and English (or other language) on the other side. They would have the same response I did when the TLM was (I think repressed) and I attended my first NO. HUH! But loyal Catholic that I am, I went along with it. What did I know?

My Parish has much that is positive to say for it and also some negatives. But then, we are not perfect. Our priest has no guitar masses, no clowns or puppets. The Mass is said in a very reverential way. He is in charge of two parishes and if I had his schedule I would have a meltdown. He does as well as he can with little help or support from the Parish.

So pray for us please.

 

[michaeldaniels]

Great post I agree…When I go to a NO Mass, I too go to a wonderful parish with a wonderful Priest…I know there are good parishes out there…more than people would think. I have never questioned the validity of the NO Mass…a lot of my KofC activities find me at NO Masses…and fortuneatly most are very reverent and the parishioners are wonderful as well. As a matter of personal preference, I rather go to the TLM offered at my registered parish…but I am just as happy to attend one of these NO Masses when my KofC duties call. To me the big issue is the esteem in which we hold the Blessed Sacrament…the reverence and respect we show. A lot of people seem to have lost that.

For 99% of your post, but please don’t include the Republican Party OR the Dem. party in an otherwise well thought out statement about proper liturgy. We already have enough trouble trying to distinguish Pro Life from Pro Republican.

Because I am a “result” of the early Latin Mass before Vat. II and the NO of the Post Vat. II days, I would like to ask you not to throw all the attendees of the NO Mass out into the dark to weep and wail and gnash our teeth.

Yes, there have been too many abuses of liturgy, Tradition, mis statements and misunderstanding of the Absolutes taught by the Church, but there is still good in the people of Post Vatican II and the NO Mass. Mahoney is an example of a priest of God gone wild, but not all are of his ilk and neither are the Catholics who have known only the NO and are not aware of the weakness of the liturgy. Just pray for us.

I think changes will come, hopefully through folks such as you who refuse to bend to modern demands, but they will come slowly. Can you imagine the NO
folks walking into a Church on a Sunday morning and being greeted by a missal having Latin on one side and English (or other language) on the other side. They would have the same response I did when the TLM was (I think repressed) and I attended my first NO. HUH! But loyal Catholic that I am, I went along with it. What did I know?

My Parish has much that is positive to say for it and also some negatives. But then, we are not perfect. Our priest has no guitar masses, no clowns or puppets. The Mass is said in a very reverential way. He is in charge of two parishes and if I had his schedule I would have a meltdown. He does as well as he can with little help or support from the Parish.

So pray for us please.

 

[elts1956]

Great post I agree…When I go to a NO Mass, I too go to a wonderful parish with a wonderful Priest…I know there are good parishes out there…more than people would think. I have never questioned the validity of the NO Mass…a lot of my KofC activities find me at NO Masses…and fortuneatly most are very reverent and the parishioners are wonderful as well. As a matter of personal preference, I rather go to the TLM offered at my registered parish…but I am just as happy to attend one of these NO Masses when my KofC duties call. To me the big issue is the esteem in which we hold the Blessed Sacrament…the reverence and respect we show. A lot of people seem to have lost that.

I agree. The loss of the central Catholic beliefs and reverence of them, is, I think, due to poor Catechesis in the Church. I don’t know if this started before, or after Vatican II, but I hope it is rectified soon. I have happened to talk to Catholics who I think really don’t know what they believe, while at the same time I have been surprised by some younger folks who are very intent in their beliefs and have a sstronger faith than I do.

What do you think of the SSPX branch? I really don’t know much about the group except the impression “I” get is that they have held on very strongly to pre Vatican II traditions, which I don’t think is a bad thing. As least I see a consistency in their teachings that I don’t hear much of today. Today we have Bishops disagreeing, at least “quietly” in conferences per se with brother Bishops on teachings which should, to me, be Absolute.

The Church as I know it today is so much different than the Church in which I was raised. Perhaps I should not say the Church, but her representatives. All very disheartening and confusing.

 

[michaeldaniels]

I personally have a lot of respect for the SSPX…and I am just hoping that they are soon brough into full communion with Rome…I am not a member of them, as I am in full communion with The Holy See…however, that is not to say that I don’t sympathize and understand their plight…and I full agree with the greater majority of their teachings and beliefs. In reference to your first paragraph and what you said about the SSPX…it was dead on…I agree competely. God Bless

I agree. The loss of the central Catholic beliefs and reverence of them, is, I think, due to poor Catechesis in the Church. I don’t know if this started before, or after Vatican II, but I hope it is rectified soon. I have happened to talk to Catholics who I think really don’t know what they believe, while at the same time I have been surprised by some younger folks who are very intent in their beliefs and have a sstronger faith than I do.

What do you think of the SSPX branch? I really don’t know much about the group except the impression “I” get is that they have held on very strongly to pre Vatican II traditions, which I don’t think is a bad thing. As least I see a consistency in their teachings that I don’t hear much of today. Today we have Bishops disagreeing, at least “quietly” in conferences per se with brother Bishops on teachings which should, to me, be Absolute.

The Church as I know it today is so much different than the Church in which I was raised. Perhaps I should not say the Church, but her representatives. All very disheartening and confusing.

 

[elts1956]

Our Lady of Guadalupe converted the Aztecs. Wholesale. Nine million people. And they converted through Spanish priests.

This is a good site I found which gives an overview of the Spanish Conquest of Mexico and the story of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

maryourmother.net/Guadalupe.html

I really don’t believe there were 9,000,000 Aztecs left in Mexico by the time of Our Lady’s appearance. There were other natives, but not all were Aztec.

"The news of the appearance of the Indian mother who left her imprint on the tilma spread like wildfire! Three points were appreciated by the native population. First, the lady was Indian, spoke Nahuatl, the Aztec language, and appeared to an Indian, not a Spaniard! Second, Juan Diego explained that she appeared at Tepeyac, the place of Tonantzin, the mother god, sending a clear message that the Virgin Mary was the mother of the true God, and that the Christian religion was to replace the Aztec religion. And third, the Indians, who learned through pictures and symbols, understood the image of the tilma, which revealed the beautiful message of Christianity: the true God sacrificed himself for mankind, instead of the horrendous life they had endured sacrificing humans to appease the frightful gods! It is no wonder that over the next seven years, from 1531 to 1538, eight million natives of Mexico converted to Catholicism! 1-3, 7, 9-11 "

The Knights of Columbus are holding a week’s convention in Arizona, Glendale, I believe, in Aug. The culmination of the event will be a Festival of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Aug. 8.

The diocese? is being honored in having a small piece of the tilma on which Our Lady’s picture appears sent to them for the occaision. This is a piece, not of the picture itself, but from an edge which was cut off when the tilma was placed into a frame.

Free tickets are available from the following website. I am planning on going.

guadalupefestival.org/en/index.html

 

[RyanML]

To me the big issue is the esteem in which we hold the Blessed Sacrament…the reverence and respect we show. A lot of people seem to have lost that.

I agree completely. My frustration in going to any local novus ordo parish is that most people dress like they are going to the beach, seem to be very disinterested in the liturgy, and then afterwards talk as loudly as possible despite the fact that there are always a few people attempting to pray and make an appropriate thanksgiving. This even happens at one parish where the priest reminds everyone, before Mass starts, to be respectful of our Eucharistic Lord and be silent and reverent. It’s like nobody cares! Our Latin Mass community is the only place I can go where the appropriate reverence and silence are maintained and it’s not unusual to stay a few minutes after Mass to thank our Lord for the wonderful gift of Himself in Holy Communion.

 

[elts1956]

I agree completely. My frustration in going to any local novus ordo parish is that most people dress like they are going to the beach, seem to be very disinterested in the liturgy, and then afterwards talk as loudly as possible despite the fact that there are always a few people attempting to pray and make an appropriate thanksgiving. This even happens at one parish where the priest reminds everyone, before Mass starts, to be respectful of our Eucharistic Lord and be silent and reverent. It’s like nobody cares! Our Latin Mass community is the only place I can go where the appropriate reverence and silence are maintained and it’s not unusual to stay a few minutes after Mass to thank our Lord for the wonderful gift of Himself in Holy Communion.

I get quite disgusted when people talk to one another during the Consecration. Why do they think they are there?

 

[RyanML]

I get quite disgusted when people talk to one another during the Consecration. Why do they think they are there?

I get the impression that most people are bored with the Liturgy and see it more as a social event at which they are obligated to be present rather than the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass at which the Angels and Saints are present and adoring the Lord with us. But I blame some of this on poor catechesis and banal, uninspiring liturgies.

 

[Shin]

This is a good site I found which gives an overview of the Spanish Conquest of Mexico and the story of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

maryourmother.net/Guadalupe.html

I really don’t believe there were 9,000,000 Aztecs left in Mexico by the time of Our Lady’s appearance. There were other natives, but not all were Aztec.

"The news of the appearance of the Indian mother who left her imprint on the tilma spread like wildfire! Three points were appreciated by the native population. First, the lady was Indian, spoke Nahuatl, the Aztec language, and appeared to an Indian, not a Spaniard! Second, Juan Diego explained that she appeared at Tepeyac, the place of Tonantzin, the mother god, sending a clear message that the Virgin Mary was the mother of the true God, and that the Christian religion was to replace the Aztec religion. And third, the Indians, who learned through pictures and symbols, understood the image of the tilma, which revealed the beautiful message of Christianity: the true God sacrificed himself for mankind, instead of the horrendous life they had endured sacrificing humans to appease the frightful gods! It is no wonder that over the next seven years, from 1531 to 1538, eight million natives of Mexico converted to Catholicism! 1-3, 7, 9-11 "

The Knights of Columbus are holding a week’s convention in Arizona, Glendale, I believe, in Aug. The culmination of the event will be a Festival of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Aug. 8.

The diocese? is being honored in having a small piece of the tilma on which Our Lady’s picture appears sent to them for the occaision. This is a piece, not of the picture itself, but from an edge which was cut off when the tilma was placed into a frame.

Free tickets are available from the following website. I am planning on going.

guadalupefestival.org/en/index.html

The webpage you cite makes clear like the books and web pages I have read elsewhere, let me quote from that web page “The precipitous conversion of over 8 million Aztec Indians to Catholicism in seven years is highly indicative of the miracle of Guadalupe. It has been pointed out that great historical movements do not result from non-events. 9”

I’ve heard ‘9 million’ on many web pages and ‘over 8 million’. If there are other numbers if you want to go find them. Protestant/Secular history’s focus is on blame are just that - they ignore the miracle and the good, because it doesn’t suit their purposes to ever give Catholicism a break. Certainly the current governments of the US and Mexico are no angels in comparison…

 

[brotherhrolf]

Certainly there has been a huge disconnect between the practices that I grew up with and those of today. We did not say a word in church before Vatican II. We were taught that we were in the presence of God visible in the tabernacle on the altar. We prayed in silence before Mass and we prayed in silent thanksgiving after Mass. One could hear a pin drop during the Consecration which was pierced only by the altar boy ringing the bells.

Elts, it was less than two years in which we transitioned from the TLM to the NO even before it was official on the First Sunday of Advent in 1969. As you pointed out, we were confused by the changes and we did not like the changes, but we remained faithful Catholics. If the process were to reverse, and, like you said, one Sunday there are missals with Latin on one side and English on the other, and an announcement were to be made from the pultpit "In two weeks we will no longer sing the “Mass of Creation” Gloria, we will sing the Gloria in Latin. And then follow that up in the course of the next eighteen months until we had a Missa Cantata…What do you think the response would be?

Catechesis? Yes. But we also have to own up to the fact that the baby got thrown out with the bathwater forty-five years ago. It is entirely and completely possible to have an orthodox OF parish with Latin sacred motets, chant used regularly, the same Latin plainsong for the Gloria, Sanctus, Pater Noster, and Agnus Dei that I grew up with, etc. I know. I attend such a parish.

I have very strong opinions about this. I saw the Mass with which I grew up tossed out in less than two years time in favor of my classmates with their guitars and Simon and Garfunkle (hey, it was 1969). I have to drive 25 miles to avoid the rock band at my local geographic parish. The liturgical dancing I have seen has all been as a result of being a cathedral choir member at diocesan events.

But, like Father Z says…one brick at a time.

You guys arguing about the number of Aztecs converted? You need to kick your “way, way, back machines” and bop up to the 1550s and see how many of those Aztecs, Tlaxcalans, etc. are alive after European diseases ravage the populations.

The gold and silver of the Aztecs still exists - much of it is in the facade of the high altar of La Catedral de Santa Maria de la Sede in Seville, Spain which God blessed me with the opportunity years ago to see. Nuestra Senora de Gudalupe is honored here in Louisiana as well. We have a framed picture of her tilma in our parish hall.

And not to further derail the thread, but, in a monastery in Mexico, there was discovered a manuscript which detailed the procession of Nuestra Senora’s tilma into Mexico City. There was sufficient information for the music to be reconstructed using native instruments and the Nahuatal language. The San Antonio Vocal Arts Ensemble recorded it. This cut is from San Fernando cathedral in San Antonio. SAVAE has also given a concert at my cathedral. It was thrilling to this anthropology major:

youtube.com/watch?v=pWi2dJk-4SU

savae.org/milagro.html

 

[elts1956]

I get the impression that most people are bored with the Liturgy and see it more as a social event at which they are obligated to be present rather than the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass at which the Angels and Saints are present and adoring the Lord with us. But I blame some of this on poor catechesis and banal, uninspiring liturgies.

Certainly there has been a huge disconnect between the practices that I grew up with and those of today. We did not say a word in church before Vatican II. We were taught that we were in the presence of God visible in the tabernacle on the altar. We prayed in silence before Mass and we prayed in silent thanksgiving after Mass. One could hear a pin drop during the Consecration which was pierced only by the altar boy ringing the bells. Oh for days of long ago.
Elts, it was less than two years in which we transitioned from the TLM to the NO even before it was official on the First Sunday of Advent in 1969. As you pointed out, we were confused by the changes and we did not like the changes, but we remained faithful Catholics. If the process were to reverse, and, like you said, one Sunday there are missals with Latin on one side and English on the other, and an announcement were to be made from the pultpit "In two weeks we will no longer sing the “Mass of Creation” Gloria, we will sing the Gloria in Latin. And then follow that up in the course of the next eighteen months until we had a Missa Cantata…What do you think the response would be? Well, first the priest might ask for a transfer and then the laity would get all dis combobulated and try to find the quickest way to pronounce the Gloria in Latin. :whacky:

Catechesis? Yes. But we also have to own up to the fact that the baby got thrown out with the bathwater forty-five years ago. AMEN! It is entirely and completely possible to have an orthodox OF parish with Latin sacred motets, chant used regularly, the same Latin plainsong for the Gloria, Sanctus, Pater Noster, and Agnus Dei that I grew up with, etc. I know. I attend such a parish. :crying: I wanna join your parish. TRULY!!!

I have very strong opinions about this. I saw the Mass with which I grew up tossed out in less than two years time in favor of my classmates with their guitars and Simon and Garfunkle (hey, it was 1969). I have to drive 25 miles to avoid the rock band at my local geographic parish. The liturgical dancing I have seen has all been as a result of being a cathedral choir member at diocesan events. So far we haven’t had that, thank the Lord above.
But, like Father Z says…one brick at a time. It’s going to be VERRY slow going.

You guys arguing about the number of Aztecs converted? You need to kick your “way, way, back machines” and bop up to the 1550s and see how many of those Aztecs, Tlaxcalans, etc. are alive after European diseases ravage the populations. I read that over half the Indian nations (can’t remember if they were all Aztec), were killed by disease in the very early history of Spanish conquest.

The gold and silver of the Aztecs still exists - By the time it made it to Spain it wasn’t in the form of idols, was it? much of it is in the facade of the high altar of La Catedral de Santa Maria de la Sede in Seville, Spain which God blessed me with the opportunity years ago to see. Nuestra Senora de Gudalupe is honored here in Louisiana as well. We have a framed picture of her tilma in our parish hall.

And not to further derail the thread, but, in a monastery in Mexico, there was discovered a manuscript which detailed the procession of Nuestra Senora’s tilma into Mexico City. There was sufficient information for the music to be reconstructed using native instruments and the Nahuatal language. The San Antonio Vocal Arts Ensemble recorded it. This cut is from San Fernando cathedral in San Antonio. SAVAE has also given a concert at my cathedral. It was thrilling to this anthropology major: I would imagine it was a beautiful event. I have yet to go to the websites you mentioned. If I had my younger years to do over, I think I would have loved to major in anthropology instead of education.
youtube.com/watch?v=pWi2dJk-4SU

savae.org/milagro.html

I apologize for the levity at the beginning of this post. Sometimes I have to throw out a bit of humor, even if it is only for myself. I didn’t mean to disrespect your posts. Your parish sounds lovely. Unfortunately, I think in my parish the laity is stronger willed than the priest, but the Mass is done with reverence. However, I do miss the Latin.

 

[elts1956]

I get the impression that most people are bored with the Liturgy and see it more as a social event at which they are obligated to be present rather than the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass at which the Angels and Saints are present and adoring the Lord with us. But I blame some of this on poor catechesis and banal, uninspiring liturgies.

What do you mean by banal uninspiring liturgies?

 

[elts1956]

I get the impression that most people are bored with the Liturgy and see it more as a social event at which they are obligated to be present rather than the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass at which the Angels and Saints are present and adoring the Lord with us. But I blame some of this on poor catechesis and banal, uninspiring liturgies.

The webpage you cite makes clear like the books and web pages I have read elsewhere, let me quote from that web page “The precipitous conversion of over 8 million Aztec Indians to Catholicism in seven years is highly indicative of the miracle of Guadalupe. It has been pointed out that great historical movements do not result from non-events. 9”

I’ve heard ‘9 million’ on many web pages and ‘over 8 million’. If there are other numbers if you want to go find them. Protestant/Secular history’s focus is on blame are just that - they ignore the miracle and the good, because it doesn’t suit their purposes to ever give Catholicism a break. Certainly the current governments of the US and Mexico are no angels in comparison…

Yes it was certainly a great miracle, especially when before Our Lady appeared, the Aztecs refused to give up their Old gods. Amazing what ferver and belief can do.

 

[stringbeanduck]

I get quite disgusted when people talk to one another during the Consecration. Why do they think they are there?

What bothers me is that our Parish plays some upbeat worship song after communion and I’m the only the only one who seems to have a problem with it. And whenever I speak out against it, I’m " infringing " on other peoples spirituality. That doesn’t shut me up though… Last time I checked Mass isn’t about how people prefer to worship God. That’s how we got to roughly 50,000 Christian denominations; people had their own opinions on how God should be worshiped. I think the people are starting to make the Mass about them more so than it is about God.

 

[RyanML]

What do you mean by banal uninspiring liturgies?

I mean liturgies with cheesy, protestantized music (think Michael Joncas, Marty Haugen, and David Haas), ugly vestments that look more like horse blankets, homilies that make the Gospel out to be one big, warm, fuzzy social justice manifesto, and no semblance of the solemnity or reverence the Church requires as part of her public worship offered to God.