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qui_est_ce
Guest
But they didn’t worship the Cherubim or the Ark of the Covenant.
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S
Sepharad
Guest
Exactly. BTW Lapell is right when he says that there is more than one type of Kabbalah. What Madonna and the other Hollyweirdos are into is not genuine Kabbalah, but a New Age cultic derivation…kind of like what Hare Krsna is to authentic Hinduism.So the Messiah would not be God, but a human being sent by God?
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Sepharad
Guest
That’s right. I think we can learn a clue from the wording in the commandment which forbids the making of graven images (its in the Jewish and Protestant Ten Commandments, but can’t seem to see it listed as a commandment in the Catholic listing).But they didn’t worship the Cherubim or the Ark of the Covenant.
Anyway, it says that we are not to make UNTO OURSELVES a graven image. I think that means we are not to make it for our own worship and use. The keruvim which God comanded to be made for the Ark, were ordered BY GOD to be made, and not for worship purposes in the same sense that the Ten Commandments forbids the making of them.
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qui_est_ce
Guest
The Ten Commandments are found in in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5,That’s right. I think we can learn a clue from the wording in the commandment which forbids the making of graven images (its in the Jewish and Protestant Ten Commandments, but can’t seem to see it listed as a commandment in the Catholic listing).
Anyway, it says that we are not to make UNTO OURSELVES a graven image. I think that means we are not to make it for our own worship and use. The keruvim which God comanded to be made for the Ark, were ordered BY GOD to be made, and not for worship purposes in the same sense that the Ten Commandments forbids the making of them.
newadvent:
newadvent.org/cathen/04153a.htmThe system of numeration found in Catholic Bibles, based on the Hebrew text, was made by St. Augustine (fifth century) in his book of “Questions of Exodus” (“Quæstionum in Heptateuchum libri VII”, Bk. II, Question lxxi), and was adopted by the Council of Trent. It is followed also by the German Lutherans, except those of the school of Bucer. This arrangement makes the First Commandment relate to false worship and to the worship of false gods as to a single subject and a single class of sins to be guarded against – the reference to idols being regarded as mere application of the precept to adore but one God and the prohibition as directed against the particular offense of idolatry alone. According to this manner of reckoning, the injunction forbidding the use of the Lord’s Name in vain comes second in order; and the decimal number is safeguarded by making a division of the final precept on concupiscence–the Ninth pointing to sins of the flesh and the Tenth to desires for unlawful possession of goods.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
But is it possible? can the Lord do that if He wants to?I said, “the God of Israel”. That means the God of the Jews. I didn’t say Jesus.
As for the concept of God taking on human form and walking on earth, Judaism rejects this possibility, in light of Deuetronomy chapter 4. In that chapter, Moses told the Jewish people plainly that they need to be careful not to worship anything manmade, and he reminded them that when God appeared, “you saw no form, but heard only a voice”. This is how we know that God does not take on human form, because Moses used that fact as an example of whyw e should not worship idols, etc
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tomarin
Guest
“Messiah” just means “king” in Hebrew. We Christians view the coming of the Messiah as a supernatural event with epic consequences for all humanity; but the Jews of Jesus’s time very probably saw the prophesy as foretelling a this-worldly event, the arrival of a great king who would save Israel from its enemies.So the Messiah would not be God, but a human being sent by God?
That’s my understanding at least.
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Sepharad
Guest
Its just that I don’t believe God lies, to say one thing and then allow something else. In fact the Bible says that God does not change: “I am Hashem, I change not; therefore you sons of Jacob are not consumed”.But is it possible? can the Lord do that if He wants to?
And I don’t believe Moses would say to the Jewish people (in Dt 4) to remember that they SAW NO FORM, but heard only a voice, if there was not an important message to be learned from that statement.
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Sepharad
Guest
Messiah is the anglicized form of Mashiach, which is actually Hebrew for “anointed one”. It refers to someone who has been anointed with oil by a prophet, as Kings David, Solomon and Saul were.“Messiah” just means “king” in Hebrew. We Christians view the coming of the Messiah as a supernatural event with epic consequences for all humanity; but the Jews of Jesus’s time very probably saw the prophesy as foretelling a this-worldly event, the arrival of a great king who would save Israel from its enemies.
That’s my understanding at least.
The Hebrew word for king is melekh.
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qui_est_ce
Guest
So, (and I realize I am looking at this with Christian lenses), the Messiah has nothing to do with the afterlife. He’s completely temporal. Just a great king. Will the Kingdom of the Messiah last until the end of the world? Will there be an end to the world?“Messiah” just means “king” in Hebrew. We Christians view the coming of the Messiah as a supernatural event with epic consequences for all humanity; but the Jews of Jesus’s time very probably saw the prophesy as foretelling a this-worldly event, the arrival of a great king who would save Israel from its enemies.
That’s my understanding at least.
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ckempston
Guest
It was not that God had “no form” but that the people were too immature to see it and not start worshiping idols like the surrounding pagans. If the people saw no form, it does not follow then that God has no form (he did have one, which Moses SAW later).Its just that I don’t believe God lies, to say one thing and then allow something else. In fact the Bible says that God does not change: “I am Hashem, I change not; therefore you sons of Jacob are not consumed”.
And I don’t believe Moses would say to the Jewish people (in Dt 4) to remember that they SAW NO FORM, but heard only a voice, if there was not an important message to be learned from that statement.
Exodus 33:21-23 Then the LORD said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but **my face **must not be seen.”
Not, “I don’t have a face,” but it “must not be seen.”
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wisdomseeker
Guest
I understand. but could it be that man is just failing to see what God really means?Its just that I don’t believe God lies, to say one thing and then allow something else. In fact the Bible says that God does not change: “I am Hashem, I change not; therefore you sons of Jacob are not consumed”.
And I don’t believe Moses would say to the Jewish people (in Dt 4) to remember that they SAW NO FORM, but heard only a voice, if there was not an important message to be learned from that statement.
i understand the concern that God had because there had to be distinction. all the nations worshipped some kind of image that had nothing to do with the living God.
the hebrews being wiht the egyptians for so long they had tendencies to also worship other Gods.
this has nothing to do wiht what Catholics do. for we believe on the same God. we dont worship the sun, the god of egypt or greek gods but we believe in One God the God of Israel. we must make a distinction here. also Catholics learned to love and appreciate what is of God.
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qui_est_ce
Guest
This is an interesting point, because the First Commandment says (or second) says not to to put other gods before God, it does not say that other gods didn’t exist.the hebrews being wiht the egyptians for so long they had tendencies to also worship other Gods.
this has nothing to do wiht what Catholics do. for we believe on the same God. we dont worship the sun, the god of egypt or greek gods but we believe in One God the God of Israel. we must make a distinction here. also Catholics learned to love and appreciate what is of God.
Exodus 20:3
3 Do not have any other gods before me.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
People fail to make distinctions.This is an interesting point, because the First Commandment says (or second) says not to to put other gods before God, it does not say that other gods didn’t exist.
Exodus 20:3
3 Do not have any other gods before me.
we have images of our Saints, Jesus, Angels. it makes the Church beautiful and reminds us who they are and what we have.
with that people accuses us of worshipping them. i dont need to defend the Church or what we believe.
they just gonna have to find out for themselves. there is no point in defending ourselves against these lame accusations.
God knows all about what we do. He is the Judge. nobody else is.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
Just a question to Jewish people.
i understand in the past you have had few prophets. after Jesus, have you had any more prophets?
Lord, be Mercyfull to me a sinner.
i understand in the past you have had few prophets. after Jesus, have you had any more prophets?
Lord, be Mercyfull to me a sinner.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
Since we don’t see Jesus as any kind of prophet, that’s a rather meaningless question.Just a question to Jewish people.
i understand in the past you have had few prophets. after Jesus, have you had any more prophets?
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wisdomseeker
Guest
did you or did you not?Since we don’t see Jesus as any kind of prophet, that’s a rather meaningless question.
K
Kaninchen
Guest
If you don’t like the answer, perhaps you should change the question.did you or did you not?
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wisdomseeker
Guest
why? can’t you answer this simple question?If you don’t like the answer, perhaps you should change the question.
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Kaninchen
Guest
I told you that what you asked included an assumption that a Jew would not make. Either ask it differently or don’t bother, it doesn’t matter in the slightest to me, after all.why? can’t you answer this simple question?
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Ed_Rand
Guest
I would also like the answers to these questions. Could we have the Jewish view of these events please? Thank you in advance.Will the Kingdom of the Messiah last until the end of the world? Will there be an end to the world?
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