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gazelam
Guest
So are you saying that Matthew 12:32 applies only to the personhood of the Son and the Holy Spirit? If so, how?
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LivingWaters7
Guest
You had asked:
My response is, there can be this distinction (pun intended) because the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons who are not each other, according to Catholic belief (as quoted in the Catechism of the Catholic Church). The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, the Holy Spirit is not the Father nor the Son, etc (again, as quoted in the Catechism). Being co-equal does not take away from that distinction.
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patmiron
Guest
The use of the Holy Spirit in this text is metaphorical for GOD
God is Triune so the teaching, the moral lesson is tat denial of the one true God is the only unforgivable sin
To
His is true for two reasons
Because the entire universe exist precisely so that man CAN discover
the one True God
And because God has committed himself to Offer sufficient grace that everyone could if they were to accept Gods grace, know, love and serve him
Isaiah 43: 7 & 21
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Jonathan7777
Guest
Complicated.
The answer is both yes and no.
Jehovah’s Witnesses believes that Jesus is Michael the Archangel which is absurd and they also believe that Jesus didn’t fully resurrect in flesh but they believe that only his soul resurrected. Jehovah’s Witnesses also believes that all other Christian denomination is false and that they would eventually all die in the last days. They believe that Jesus died on a wooden pole instead of a cross.
Mormons (LDS) tends to pretend that they are normal Christians but obviously they’re not. They even have other scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Price, and other books they have out there. They also believe that Joseph Smith was a genuine prophet. They believe that ancient Jews built boats and sailed to America, and those Jews are later ancestors of Native Americans, that Jesus went to America after his resurrection, that Jesus and Satan are brothers, they also believe that God has a wife (heavenly mother) and that they had countless celestial sexual relations which brought us to life, they believe that God actually had sex with Mary (like LITERALLY), New Jerusalem would be in America, belief that there are 3 heavens, and etc. Mormons have a Mormon temple where they do crazy things like baptism for the dead, getting secret new spiritual names, learning secret hand shakes that they will do with the angels, temple endowment videos which features: Jehovah God becoming Adam, Elohim the God not knowing how he created the world, and other absurd stuff.
Very luckily for them, the criteria of being saved is accepting Jesus as the Lord and Savior so I guess some (or many) of Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses might be saved although there will be consequences for holding on to some very crazy doctrines. I know that lots of Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are good people and I have no intention of demonizing them.
Will they be saved? I guess so but not sure…
Are they true Christians? No. They are false Christians.
The answer is both yes and no.
Jehovah’s Witnesses believes that Jesus is Michael the Archangel which is absurd and they also believe that Jesus didn’t fully resurrect in flesh but they believe that only his soul resurrected. Jehovah’s Witnesses also believes that all other Christian denomination is false and that they would eventually all die in the last days. They believe that Jesus died on a wooden pole instead of a cross.
Mormons (LDS) tends to pretend that they are normal Christians but obviously they’re not. They even have other scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Price, and other books they have out there. They also believe that Joseph Smith was a genuine prophet. They believe that ancient Jews built boats and sailed to America, and those Jews are later ancestors of Native Americans, that Jesus went to America after his resurrection, that Jesus and Satan are brothers, they also believe that God has a wife (heavenly mother) and that they had countless celestial sexual relations which brought us to life, they believe that God actually had sex with Mary (like LITERALLY), New Jerusalem would be in America, belief that there are 3 heavens, and etc. Mormons have a Mormon temple where they do crazy things like baptism for the dead, getting secret new spiritual names, learning secret hand shakes that they will do with the angels, temple endowment videos which features: Jehovah God becoming Adam, Elohim the God not knowing how he created the world, and other absurd stuff.
Very luckily for them, the criteria of being saved is accepting Jesus as the Lord and Savior so I guess some (or many) of Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses might be saved although there will be consequences for holding on to some very crazy doctrines. I know that lots of Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are good people and I have no intention of demonizing them.
Will they be saved? I guess so but not sure…
Are they true Christians? No. They are false Christians.
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PJM
Guest
THANK YOU s very much.
Here’s something to think about though:
God WILL, because as God, He MUST
Pass final judgment upon each of us, NOT on what we choose to believe, accept or practice, RATHER final Judgment will be based upon what He GOD} has made POSSIBLE for each of us to know, to believe, to accept and to practice. AMEN!
God Bless you
Patrick
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jlhargus
Guest
Using doctrine I would say those who ordain gay ministers and SS marriage are not Christian. At least Morman and JW follow the natural moral law.
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Mosestheblack
Guest
Yes, they do accept the teachings of christ, therefore in my opinion they are christian. Just a very different and unorthodox form of christianity. Also much more door-knockey. I have met a few mormons and jehovahs witnesses and they carry themselves and talk in a very christian way. There are many forms of christianity. Catholic, orthodox, lutheran, gnostic, methodist, etc. Just because they don’t all agree doesn’t make them un-christian. Except for catholics according to the pentecostals and baptists in my area. (Oh, mississippi…)
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adf417
Guest
Greetings Moses and welcome to CAF,
Do you also believe the heretical groups in the early church such as the Arians and Nestorians were Christian groups?
Peace!!!
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PJM
Guest
Actually THEY don’t
What they Do accept is the interpretation and understating that THEY CHOOSE to give the bible; which is WHY they have their own NON-Bible faith belief books:shrug:
WELCOME to CAF!
GBY!
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Mosestheblack
Guest
Of a sort. I’m not saying they were right. Not at all. I firmly believe that the catholic church is the truest form of christianity. The others are (in my opinion) still forms of christianity, just not correct ones. Misinformed ones that believe incorrect teachings. The Arians and Nestorians were incorrect in their teachings, especially regarding the nature of christ. However I still consider them (as well as mormons and jehovah’s witnesses) christians. Just misinformed, wrong, heretical christians.
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Tarquin
Guest
I think I understand what you are saying. One that level, I agree with you. Anyone who “confesses Christ” qualifies in some degree to be called “Christian.”
Many people believe Jesus is Christ (Messiah) while holding beliefs that seem utterly contrary to the teachings we find in the New Testament. For example, Bekhtashis, Muslims, and some Hindus believe Jesus was a Messiah, Christ, or manifestation of God. That becomes a very loose interpretation, I understand.
I’m not sure how to make distinctions - by teachings in the New Testament?, by doctrinal innovations?, or what? - and what words to use to describe differences - traditional, heretical, exotic, nonconformist, radical??? Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses hold a few traditional beliefs, some exotic beliefs (one, Jesus is the archangel; the other, God lives on Kolob or nearby), and some heretical (in contrast to traditional Christianity). Names, labels, categories, hard for me to figure out.
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adf417
Guest
Greetings Moses,
I think I understand where you are going with this as I have tried to reconcile with this same position in the past. The problem is clarity for those that are not as informed but seek understanding. I don’t have a problem when some try to includ these fring groups as “Christian” but now it is up to you to clarify what they are and what they are not otherwise you may be misinforming others.
When we teach our children that “Christianity” is the acceptable religion God has given us for proper worship of Him, it should follow that it also be acceptable for our children to embrace these fring groups as acceptable to God if we also teach them that they are Christians. Do you see how this can be confusing to others? Would you like to propose a new term that would be more acceptable that the church should adopt? Do you think the church should continue changing this term to fit all of our positions?
Peace!!!
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jas84173
Guest
I think in a “scholarly” sense of viewing it, the two would be in the umbrella of Christianity. Most world religions have groups which orthodox members view as heretical. Ahmidiyyah Islam is viewed as heretical to most Muslims yet they identify as Muslim. Many Haredi Jews believe reform Jews are heretical in a way.
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esieffe
Guest
No. Pretending they are will not make them so. I have known people from both groups, all very nice people, but no, they are not Christians.:nope:
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rcwitness
Guest
Well, then that’s not very orthodox of you…
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jas84173
Guest
All I am saying is they are not separate world religions but a quasi sect of Christianity.
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jas84173
Guest
Honestly I’ve met many people who tell me Catholics aren’t Christian. So what exactly defines a Christian in that case?
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ajcstr
Guest
“And you will know they are Christian by their love”
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kimg901
Guest
In my opinion I think the majority of people are trying to find God in their own way. Who are we to say that someone isn’t a Christian because they don’t pray or believe the same way we do. God loves us all. Instead of making assumptions or guessing that we know what God wants, how about we unite as Christians instead? This world is getting turned upside down. Let us love one another and respect each other as Jesus does. Let us pray for those you don’t believe in God or Jesus that they may find peace through Him.
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ATraveller
Guest
I don’t believe Mormonism is orthodox Christianity but I know many Mormons and they make better orthodox Christians than many people who call themselves Christians including some regular attenders of corporate worship. I really admire how so many actually practise what they preach, are more likely to be better witnesses of Christ than many Christians despite errors in their religion and that they do not get so entangled with the West’s toxic and perverse culture. They put many Christians to shame. They live lives Christians should be living aside from some certain restrictions like caffeine.
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