Are Mormons Christians

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mtolympus said:
Jesus is the God of the Old Testament:

“By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt.” (Heb. 11:24-26)
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Strictly speaking, the word translated as Christ, is referring to the Anointed one, which in the view of the Hebrews were themselves. Israel, the anointed people of God. The reproach of the Anointed one referring to the suffering of Israel. This is a type of Christ, a prefiguring of the Messiah.

But yes, the Word of God was known to Moses in his Theophany; the burning bush. The Father and Spirit of God are also found in the OT. But it was Jesus who revealed the Father, in Himself, and the Father who revealed the Son, in sending the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. The Son and the Father reveal the Holy Spirit. One God, who gave His name to Moses as “I Am”. Not “We Are”.
 
RichWh1 said:
Yea according to John 1:1-3, the Word created everything including Lucifer. 👍
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The problem is it doesn’t say “including Lucifer.”

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:1-3)

LDS believe there are some things that were not made, but are eternal. Light and Truth, which is the Glory of God, and the elements are eternal.

“The Glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words light and truth. Light and truth forsake the evil one.” (D&C 93:36-37)
 
mtolympus said:
The problem is it doesn’t say “including Lucifer.”

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:1-3)

LDS believe there are some things that were not made, but are eternal. Light and Truth, which is the Glory of God, and the elements are eternal.

“The Glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words light and truth. Light and truth forsake the evil one.” (D&C 93:36-37)
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how do you reconcile an “eternal God” when yours was once a sinful man? That seems to be a contradiction
 
RichWh1 said:
Yea according to John 1:1-3, the Word created everything including Lucifer. 👍
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The problem is it doesn’t say “including Lucifer.”

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:1-3)

LDS believe there are some things that were not made, but are eternal. Light and Truth, which is the Glory of God, and the elements are eternal.

“The Glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words light and truth. Light and truth forsake the evil one.” (D&C 93:36-37)
 
mtolympus said:
The problem is it doesn’t say “including Lucifer.”

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:1-3)

LDS believe there are some things that were not made, but are eternal. Light and Truth, which is the Glory of God, and the elements are eternal.

“The Glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words light and truth. Light and truth forsake the evil one.” (D&C 93:36-37)
Click to expand...
It doesn’t **have **to say Lucifer. Try this scripture on for size.

John 21:24-25

24 This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his testimony is true.

***25And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen ***

Try again. 😃
 
RebeccaJ said:
Strictly speaking, the word translated as Christ, is referring to the Anointed one, which in the view of the Hebrews were themselves. Israel, the anointed people of God. The reproach of the Anointed one referring to the suffering of Israel. This is a type of Christ, a prefiguring of the Messiah.

But yes, the Word of God was known to Moses in his Theophany; the burning bush. The Father and Spirit of God are also found in the OT. But it was Jesus who revealed the Father, in Himself, and the Father who revealed the Son, in sending the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. The Son and the Father reveal the Holy Spirit. One God, who gave His name to Moses as “I Am”. Not “We Are”.
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Paul tells us that there is one God, and that there is one mediator between God and men. This mediator is Jesus Christ: “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim. 2:5-6)

In all of God’s dealings with the human family, Jesus the Son represents his Father. Jesus often speaks in first person on behalf of the Father. He explained to his disciples that when he spoke to them he did not speak of himself, but words of the Father: “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14:10)

Jesus told the disciples how he was one with the Father and said that they also would someday understand this kind of unity. (John 14:20) Jesus then repeated that he speaks the words of the Father: **“And the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.” (John 14:24) **

With this understanding, the testimony of John the Baptist may enlighten us concerning the God of the Old Testament:

"John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." (John 1:15-18)

John the Baptist was testifying of Jesus, who would come after him, when he said that “he was before me.” John was referring to Old Testament times, when “the law was given by Moses,” and told them that it was Jesus Christ who had appeared to the prophets. For they had never seen God (the Father) at any time but bore record of the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father. Jesus Christ had declared the Father unto them.
 
mtolympus said:
The problem is it doesn’t say “including Lucifer.”

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (John 1:1-3)

LDS believe there are some things that were not made, but are eternal. Light and Truth, which is the Glory of God, and the elements are eternal.

“The Glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words light and truth. Light and truth forsake the evil one.” (D&C 93:36-37)
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And why is this a problem? Your post highlights the one of the main theological differences between Christianity and Mormonism. Christians belive that God created everything ex nihlio - the universe, angels (including Lucifer), humans, etc. The only person who is not created is God Himself. As such, we can correctly call God the Creator.

Heavenly Father, on the other hand, didn’t actually create anything. He is simply an organizer of matter, light and truth that already existed, as you stated. Heavenly Father just organized existing matter, light, etc into the universe. He didn’t actually create anything. He just assembles. John 1:1-3 cannot be used to support the Mormon position at all as John tells us that “**all things **were made by Him” (emphasis mine).

When Mormons use the term God, it has an entirely different meaning than what Christians (or any of the Abrahamic religions) mean. As I said in a post much earlier in this thread, Christians and Mormons speak different languages.
 
smithian is a far more descriptive designation for members of the lds since they believe Jesus Christ cannot be truly known and understood except through the teachings of joseph smith.

the lds believe salvation (in their sense of the word) comes to mankind through Jesus Christ as defined by joseph smith.

they require joseph smith as well as Jesus Christ. thus, it is better that members of the lds be called smithians rather than christians.

people who rely solely on Jesus Christ without the need for the mediation of joseph smith are more appropriately called christians.

the lds are more appropriately called smithians.
 
twopekinguys said:
It doesn’t **have **to say Lucifer. Try this scripture on for size.

John 21:24-25

24 This is the disciple who testifies of these things, and wrote these things; and we know that his testimony is true.

***25And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen ***

Try again. 😃
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Of course there were many other things that Jesus did. This could be talking about the Book of Mormon for all we know!

The point is John did not say that the Word created Lucifer. John said "without him (the Word) was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:3)
 
eddie_too said:
smithian is a far more descriptive designation for members of the lds since they believe Jesus Christ cannot be truly known and understood except through the teachings of joseph smith.

the lds believe salvation (in their sense of the word) comes to mankind through Jesus Christ as defined by joseph smith.

they require joseph smith as well as Jesus Christ. thus, it is better that members of the lds be called smithians rather than christians.

people who rely solely on Jesus Christ without the need for the mediation of joseph smith are more appropriately called christians.

the lds are more appropriately called smithians.
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We are already called “Mormons” after the prophet in the BOM. Isn’t that good enough?🙂 However, we are still “Christians” according to the Webster New World Dictionary. You will have to take your case to Webster. We didn’t write it.
 
i thought the smithians 🙂 teach that lucifer was created as a spiritual child of heavenly father?

is mtolympus arguing that lucifer is uncreated, eternal?
 
mtolympus said:
Of course there were many other things that Jesus did. This could be talking about the Book of Mormon for all we know!

The point is John did not say that the Word created Lucifer. John said "without him (the Word) was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:3)
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And John could also be referencing Jesus visiting the people that Brigham Young said live on the moon and the sun! 🙂

Please read post #546.

Christians belive that God created everything ex nihlio - the universe, angels (including Lucifer), humans, etc. The only person who is not created is God Himself. We can, therefore, correctly call God the Creator. As such, there is no need to specifically state that God created Lucifer. He created** everything **out of nothing which is why John states that “all things were made by Him”.

The Mormon belief that matter, light, truth and intelligences are eternal means that Heavenly Father didn’t actually create anything. He simply organized existing matter, light, etc into the universe. He assembled the universe from the building blocks that already existed independently of Him. He organized the intelligences into our spirits and organized the existing matter into our physical bodies. So really, Mormons do not believe that Heavenly Father created Lucifer. He simply organized an intelligence into the spirit child Lucifer who then rebelled and became Satan. But for the sake of completeness, Heavenly Father also organized intelligences into our spirits. He also organized an intelligence that eventually became Jesus.
 
eddie_too said:
i thought the smithians 🙂 teach that lucifer was created as a spiritual child of heavenly father?

is mtolympus arguing that lucifer is uncreated, eternal?
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I believe he is trying to say that Lucifer’s “intelligence” is eternal, along with us. Mormons use the word “Create” a little differently. It’s more like organized.
 
eddie_too said:
i thought the smithians 🙂 teach that lucifer was created as a spiritual child of heavenly father?

is mtolympus arguing that lucifer is uncreated, eternal?
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Not only Lucifer, but you as well. And not only you, but all matter in the universe. 🤷
 
steve

everything is uncreated and eternal? that is what smithians teach?

such a doctrine contradicts reality. have they never seen a pregnant woman?
 
Heavenly Father procreated with Heavenly Mother to make spirit children from the existing intelligences.
 
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