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Horton
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The earlier reports were that Jesus appeared in North America, somewhere near current day New York. Of course that had to be changed because no archeological evidence of the claims could be found there.
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Neithan
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We might balk at it, but I think one of the main beliefs of Mormonism, that we are meant to be gods — exaltation — is true or very close to the truth. Consider Athanasius summation of the faith: God became Man so that men may become gods (CCC 460). We call it divinization. As Catholics we do not define this in any detail, however, because that is completely speculative and what God has in store for us “No eye has seen, nor ear has heard.” Smith claimed to have seen and heard. Because it completely contradicts and tries to “correct” the accepted revelation, it is not something I can reconcile with a rationally consistent supreme being. So he is another false prophet to me, like Muhammad.
If Smith had claimed to have a revelation of what was in store for us after the general resurrection, but did not deny any dogmas and believed that there was a “latter day” testament, I would find it rather compelling, to be honest. I cannot accept that there is some contradiction in what God has revealed, but I can accept there are new revelations. The church calls these “private revelations” because they are not necessary for everyone to believe. As it is, I think this is an imaginative but erroneous and derivative reinterpretation of the true religion.
We also do not necessarily have to deny that Smith encountered an angel, like Muhammad. Whether they were fallen angels to further confuse and divide the church is what I wonder.
If Smith had claimed to have a revelation of what was in store for us after the general resurrection, but did not deny any dogmas and believed that there was a “latter day” testament, I would find it rather compelling, to be honest. I cannot accept that there is some contradiction in what God has revealed, but I can accept there are new revelations. The church calls these “private revelations” because they are not necessary for everyone to believe. As it is, I think this is an imaginative but erroneous and derivative reinterpretation of the true religion.
We also do not necessarily have to deny that Smith encountered an angel, like Muhammad. Whether they were fallen angels to further confuse and divide the church is what I wonder.
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SeekerOfTruth7
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2 Corinthians 11:14-St Paul says: “And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.”
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Duke12VonFalkenburg
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“BUT EVEN IF WE OR AN ANGEL FROM HEAVEN SHOULD PREACH TO YOU A GOSPEL CONTRARY TO THE ONE WE PREACHED TO YOU, LET HIM BE ACCURSED.” – GALATIANS 1:8
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DeusNobisAuxilium
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ExMo here. It is correct that there are many sects of Mormonism. The second largest being Community of Christ headquartered in Independence, MO. Community of Christ is more Protestant in that they believe in a Triune God. They do not accept all scripture that you’ll find in the Utah church.
Mormonism stands, IMO, to become a major world religion.
There is heavy Masonic influence in the temple and on the garments they wear. Joseph Smith obviously plagiarized Masonic symbolism and ritual after becoming a Mason himself.
The henotheistic/monolatrous nature of their theology is disconcerting. The development of this theology, I believe, comes from the King Follett funeral sermon. That same sermon inspired William W. Phelps to write the LDS beloved hymm, “If You Could Hie to Kolob”. Former LDS president Lorenzo Snow coined the couplet to the effect of “As He was, we are. As He is, we are to become.”
Mormonism stands, IMO, to become a major world religion.
There is heavy Masonic influence in the temple and on the garments they wear. Joseph Smith obviously plagiarized Masonic symbolism and ritual after becoming a Mason himself.
The henotheistic/monolatrous nature of their theology is disconcerting. The development of this theology, I believe, comes from the King Follett funeral sermon. That same sermon inspired William W. Phelps to write the LDS beloved hymm, “If You Could Hie to Kolob”. Former LDS president Lorenzo Snow coined the couplet to the effect of “As He was, we are. As He is, we are to become.”
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gazelam
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Most certainly. For starters, we take upon ourselves the name of Christ at baptism. We are taught that Christ is the example we should emulate. We pray to the Father in the name of Christ. Our church is named after Christ - which most Christians cannot claim. We believe in the Book of Mormon in addition to the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is another testament to the divinity of Christ. This infographic points out that Christ is mentioned nearly 4,000 times in the Book of Mormon, or roughly once every 1.7 verses. We partake of The Sacrament (Communion) weekly to renew our baptismal covenants with Christ.
Now a rhetorical question regarding those who claim that belief in the doctrine of the Trinity is a or the requirement for being considered Christian…
A blog I follow just yesterday quoted John Calvin from his commentary of Amos 5:25 regarding the efficacy of baptism:
Perhaps Calvin here is using hyperbole, but if John Calvin who (I assume) believes in the doctrine of the Trinity and that the devil can baptize validly is considered a Christian, then I, who believes that the divine Christ was sent from the divine Father to atone for our sins, but who does not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity and also does not believe that the devil can baptize validly should be given the same consideration as Calvin.
A well thought out response. Thank you.JonNC:
Most certainly. For starters, we take upon ourselves the name of Christ at baptism. We are taught that Christ is the example we should emulate. We pray to the Father in the name of Christ. Our church is named after Christ - which most Christians cannot claim. We believe in the Book of Mormon in addition to the Bible. We believe that the Book of Mormon is another testament to the divinity of Christ. This infographic points out that Christ is mentioned nearly 4,000 times in the Book of Mormon, or roughly once every 1.7 verses. We partake of The Sacrament (Communion) weekly to renew our baptismal covenants with Christ.
Now a rhetorical question regarding those who claim that belief in the doctrine of the Trinity is a or the requirement for being considered Christian…
A blog I follow just yesterday quoted John Calvin from his commentary of Amos 5:25 regarding the efficacy of baptism:
Perhaps Calvin here is using hyperbole, but if John Calvin who (I assume) believes in the doctrine of the Trinity and that the devil can baptize validly is considered a Christian, then I, who believes that the divine Christ was sent from the divine Father to atone for our sins, but who does not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity and also does not believe that the devil can baptize validly should be given the same consideration as Calvin.
With respect, I value the belief found in the three great creeds of the universal Church that belief in the Trinity is a central tenant of Christianity.
Frankly, there have been a couple of posts that have been unnecessarily harsh. I appreciate your thoughtful posts.
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lanman87
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That is what I meant when I said the reformation started a change in the church/state relationship. Initially, the church and state was melded closer together. So much so that being a Catholic or Protestant had more to do with which king/queen you supported than it did religious belief. We still seem remnants of that in Northern Ireland. Violence was done on both sides under than name of religion, but was actually a way to gather secular power for a King/Queen (or someone wanting to be a King/Queen).
It was a reaction to this violence caused a greater cry for religious tolerance (people got tired of the killing and violence). Which eventually led to the enlightenment’s cry for self determination and freedom of religion.
But even in most U.S. States there was an official religion and other religions were tolerated. And most of those laws weren’t done away with until well after the constitution was ratified.
But the practical effect of the 1st Amendment was the growth in Christian denominations and the starting of groups like the Mormons. With no government oversight and denominational oversight becoming a personal decision for each individual, we saw a massive multiplication in Christian denominations. Some cultural, some over authority, some over doctrine, some over politics. Some from gifted speakers who gained a following due to their personal charm and speaking ability. (which is still happening today)
Before 1800 there were maybe 10-20 Protestant sub-groups. By 1900 there were hundreds. Most of the denominations come from the United States because the United States was the first country to have a true freedom of religion. Also, groups like the Mormons, JW’s and so forth could claim to be Christian when the gospel they preach is a different gospel than historic Christianity.
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Neithan
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That is a great tune.
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Legend
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If Mormonism is soon to be ‘a major world religion’ why has it been losing members?
From what I can see, neither the Bible, nor the Book of Mormon, have much to do with Mormon doctrine!
Like…Jesus and Lucifer being brothers, men becoming gods…with their own planets. Like God the father having a body of ‘flesh and bone’.
No, there’s little biblical theology, here. This ‘church’ has been losing members since the rise of the internet!
From what I can see, neither the Bible, nor the Book of Mormon, have much to do with Mormon doctrine!
Like…Jesus and Lucifer being brothers, men becoming gods…with their own planets. Like God the father having a body of ‘flesh and bone’.
No, there’s little biblical theology, here. This ‘church’ has been losing members since the rise of the internet!
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Horton
Guest
However, when you mention Christ you do not mean the same Jesus Christ who is the basis of all Christianity. The second person of the Trinity, God incarnate, sent from heaven to earth fully human, fully divine, who was not created but has always been, the great I AM.
You mean a Christ who was born of a sexual union of a heavenly father and a heavenly mother, created, not divine, fully human who was “exalted” as a god after death. This man you call Christ is a brother to satan and has many brothers & sisters.
So please, saying you use the word “Christ” in your Mormon books and such really doesn’t mean much as it has no ties to Christianity.
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DeusNobisAuxilium
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Becoming a world religion isn’t necessarily about number of members but how widespread a religion is. The greatest loss to membership, from what I understand, is in the US. The majority of LDS membership is actually outside the US.
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RuthAnne
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They are Christians in the sense that they worship a Christ. But Mormons worship a Mormon version of Christ that is not a biblical version of Christ. They can call themselves Christians if they want. But it’s like they say, how many legs does a dog have if you call his tail a leg? It doesn’t matter what you call his tail. He still has four legs. It doesn’t matter what Mormons call themselves. They can call themselves zebras if they want. I don’t really care. It doesn’t change the truth.
I like what my close ex-Mormon friend said to me. On the cover of the book of Mormon is says:
The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ
What it should say is:
The Book of Mormon: Testament of Another Jesus Christ
I like what my close ex-Mormon friend said to me. On the cover of the book of Mormon is says:
The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ
What it should say is:
The Book of Mormon: Testament of Another Jesus Christ
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RuthAnne
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Today, the Mormonites are celebrating the 200th anniversary of Joseph Smith’s vision in which he saw and spoke to God the Father and Jesus Christ. In their conversation, Jesus Christ told Joseph Smith that he should join none of the existing churches, that they, including Catholicism, were all wrong, that they were all abominable, that their ministers were corrupt, that they taught the teachings of man, not of God, that they worshiped God with their lips, but that their hearts were far from Him. That is a short summary of what Mormonites believe about us Catholics and today they underscore and celebrate that belief.
It is interesting, though, that after Joe was told not to join any of the churches, he attempted to join the Methodist church anyway. According to some sources, he was actually a member for like three days and left in order to not be excommunicated due to his unsavory character. So much for obeying his God . . .
It is interesting, though, that after Joe was told not to join any of the churches, he attempted to join the Methodist church anyway. According to some sources, he was actually a member for like three days and left in order to not be excommunicated due to his unsavory character. So much for obeying his God . . .
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AngelaMarie
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They had a love-fest over Smith today and the founding of their church. Completely tone deaf as to what is needed today, 2020 with what is going on in the world.
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RuthAnne
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Did they also have a love fest over Jesus or was this their typical Joseph Smith worship?
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Tommy999
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The Mormon/LDS religion definitely has been its own religion from its inception based on its unique beliefs that are outside mainstream Christianity. These beliefs are why they were pressured out of different midwestern states such as Michigan, Illinois, and Missouri (possibly others) by Protestant majorities before they wound out migrating and settling in Utah back in the 1800s.
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RaisedCatholic
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They are not Protestants, since - despite differences between denominations - they all believe in the Deity of Christ & the Holy Spirit, the Trinity, & believe in sola fide. Mormons reject all of this, and are very works based in terms of salvation. Protestants also espouse to sola scriptura, which Mormons don’t. That is why they are labeled as a “non-Christian cult,” as are Jehovah’s Witnesses. The term “cult” is not meant to be derogative in any way, only descriptive.
Plus, these rejections of Mormons were not shared by any of the Reformers. So, no, they are not Protestants.
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gazelam
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I, too, appreciate your respectful tone and your sharing what you value.
Yes, the long knives come out often when these topics are discussed.
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gazelam
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Joseph Smith never claimed that Jesus failed. Jesus never fails. Jesus’ disciples fail sometimes (you know - the Parable of the Sower and all that)
As a former Latter-day Saint this is a really odd analysis. You first claim that Joseph Smith heavily borrowed from Masonry. Then you mention William W. Phelps who was well known for his anti-Masonic views. Do you think Phelps would have stuck around if he thought Joseph Smith was incorporating Masonry into Latter-day Saint worship?
The book Exploring the Connections Between Mormons and Masons footnote 37 on page 21 lists 2 PAGES of Masonic references that are not part of Latter-day Saint worship.
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